Potential List idea of Vanilla DW

[Prot]

So I've been going over and over list creation since my last games have been pretty bad results. Granted these are against Codex armies, but overall it's giving me this very bad vibe about our 'mixed' units. IE: they are too expensive, period.

 

There's debate really how far Termies go this edition. Same for Bikers, and a lot of pricier multiwound mid-tier units. As more codexes come out I'm seeing higher damage stats on more weapons, and ways to manipulate AP (even if by chance: IE a roll of a 6 to wound.)

 

So I thought of stripping the army right down. 

 

Just dudes, with chainswords, and very basic fundamental squads. No more playing around with 'funsy' items like IHB's. 

 

This means: vanilla units, except for HQ's. Watchmaster/Libby/TermCptn. 

Vanilla Squads: Mostly just SIA bolters/Chainswords.

Special Weapons come in basic variants: squads with Melta Combi, squads with Frag cannons, and maybe... Missile Launcher squad(s)?

Razorbacks: probably one of each... but I think I need one pod.

 

The luxury items for me include:

- Hellblasters (on foot)

- Apothecary (on foot patching them up)

- Corvus (I really have trouble pulling this out of my lists entirely)

- Maybe a solo Shield/Hammer Termie? Something for spice in the Corvus unit.

 

So this feels super duper basic. But I removed bikers, Vanguard, funner/fluffy stuff to get some more models on the table.

 

What do you guys think? Is this plausible? I can't be the only one thinking this way.... 

 

[robofish7591]

You aren't the only one, I have been struggling to create lists with the index as well.  Only one other person at the shop I play at still uses deathwatch, and even then its rare.  Deathwatch just seem to be too expensive for what they are and what they bring to the table.  8th ed deathwatch feel more challenging to play than 7th ed deathwatch, at least in my meta.  It just seems that we can't really bring enough answers for what other lists can dish out.

 

Bringing bodies may be the way to go for deathwatch, our special issue ammo is pretty flexible.  Although, vehicles will give us a lot of problems.  Taking lasbacks and las/missile dreads could probably get us by if we play smart though.  

 

I have been toying with the idea of running a dreadnought heavy deathwatch army with killteams supporting the dreads.  The only thing that worries me is that dreads aren't the most difficult thing to kill...  Maybe a contemptor (mortis or regular) or a leviathan would be a decent addition.  I don't have the forgeworld index, so I'm not sure exactly how they would fit in the list.  

 

Speaking of forgeworld, I don't recall what all deathwatch go access to.  Is there anything there that could help us out?

[Kargrym]

Ok, Lets napkin math.

 

I Need Dakka!!!!!!!

 

Battalion - 2000 pts on the nose

 

HQs

Watchmaster - 130

Captain with Bolter and Power Axe - 79

 

Corvus with Twin Assault Cannon, Hurricane Bolters and 2x Blackstar Launchers, Aspen Array - 234

10 Man Kill Team with Bolters and Cainswords - 190

424 Points

 

Drop Pod with Storm Bolter - 105

9 Man Kill Team with Bolters and Chainswords - 171

276

 

Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons and Storm Bolter - 102

6 Man Kill Team with Bolters and Chain Sword - 114

216

 

Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons and Storm Bolter - 102

6 Man Kill Team with Bolters and Chain Sword - 114

 

Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons and Storm Bolter - 102

6 Man Kill Team with Bolters and Chain Sword - 114

 

Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons and Storm Bolter - 102

6 Man Kill Team with Bolters and Chain Sword - 114

 

 

7 Frag Cannons - 210 Put them where you want them

1 Melta Gun -17 Stick in the drop pod?

 

Model Total - 6 Vehicles, 45 Troops. 

 

I don't know how well this would do, but thats your bog standard dakka gunline. 37 models that use SIA, 7 Frag and a lot of S6, -1AP cannon fire.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Kargrym

[Mobius0288]

I get it man. vanilla-izing would give us many more bodies, but depending on the codex army you're going to face... it won't matter. I saw a Primaris marine army (salamander rules) vs the new tyranid codex. Dude, it was an ass beating. Granted there was just a single transport...

 

Specific items below, but in summary I feel like going straight vanilla still won't get us there. DW seriously needs a rule where, when battleforged, we get free dedicated transports. That would balance out everything in my opinion..... no probably not, but I would feel better

 

That's a funny list. I'd rush forward first turn and pop smoke on everything just because I could.

 

 

Special Weapons come in basic variants: squads with Melta Combi, squads with Frag cannons, and maybe... Missile Launcher squad(s)?

How many you talking? Just giving the Sgt the special weapon or tossing in more then 1? Vanilla squads for me means sticking 3 combi-weapons in a squad of 5. If you're going to take a naked marine squad, why not just use some intercessors with that foot slogging apothecary? Or you could buy a couple reivers to deep strike.

 

- Hellblasters (on foot)

- Apothecary (on foot patching them up)

These guys go well together. I wouldn't bother trying to follow a kill team on foot with your apothecary, unless you have a termie or two in there to help soak wounds.

 

 

- Maybe a solo Shield/Hammer Termie?

The solo bikers/VV/termie days are long gone man. That's the first thing they Erreta'd. An assassin could possibly help. Specifically, the Culexus.

 

 

Speaking of forgeworld, I don't recall what all deathwatch go access to.  Is there anything there that could help us out?

You get access to the entire index. So far I've picked up and used tarantula turrets; they help quite nicely - both as anti deep strike (protecting my small back line) and as extra dakka. AND THEY'RE 27 PTS PER MODEL. I still have a leviathan dread and sicarian tank to build but I'm thinking the sicarian may be the only other decent choice since it offers great anti-air. The xiphon interceptor has been getting a lot of love in the forums, being a cost efficient vehicle hunter (2 TWIN-las and 3 missiles?). I think... there's a multi-melta razorback? Could be for funzies.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Mobius0288

[robofish7591]

Hmm... tarantulas sound like some cheap fire support, which is exactly what deathwatch needs!  I may need to get the index and see if anything jumps out at me.  Aren't there some relic predators?  Depending on how they are priced they could be useful.

[Mobius0288]

Hmm... tarantulas sound like some cheap fire support, which is exactly what deathwatch needs!  I may need to get the index and see if anything jumps out at me.  Aren't there some relic predators?  Depending on how they are priced they could be useful.

Ya I was pricing them out last night... 105 for the base. With twin-las plus to las sponsons, you're up to 205. I suspect you could go a different version if you already have some razorbacks or dreads in play to do lascannons. The C-Beamer seemed cool but appeared to mostly benefit killing multi-unit squads. Or the plasma destroyer looks pretty good as well... heavy 2D3 with auto overcharge and no mortal wound penalty.

[Prot]

 

 

 

Special Weapons come in basic variants: squads with Melta Combi, squads with Frag cannons, and maybe... Missile Launcher squad(s)?

How many you talking? Just giving the Sgt the special weapon or tossing in more then 1? Vanilla squads for me means sticking 3 combi-weapons in a squad of 5. If you're going to take a naked marine squad, why not just use some intercessors with that foot slogging apothecary? Or you could buy a couple reivers to deep strike.

 

 

One squad for each purpose. This makes them astartes-like in role, except trading in fancy toys (vehicles/tanks/etc) for SIA sternguard for the other roles. So 3-4 Melta's in a squad. 3-4 Missile launchers in a squad, perhaps 2 frags for squad.

 

I still use a pod or two with this army specifically, and they are rumoured to be going down in points. But before the game the pod is empty. There's nothing stopping a player from deciding the priority unit that must use the pod, and get in there quick, with the flyer joining it soon after for aura magic.

 

 

- Hellblasters (on foot)

- Apothecary (on foot patching them up)

These guys go well together. I wouldn't bother trying to follow a kill team on foot with your apothecary, unless you have a termie or two in there to help soak wounds.

 

- Well it did work in my Primaris army. An Apothecary would work better if he is running up behind the Razors along side the Helblasters, until they are in range. Again depends on the opponent.... against Astra, yea you have to move these guys fast as unit and hope for shots, and wound restoration. Against Nids you get to play the fireline game with Primaris.

 

I've used every combination of Primaris out there... I simply dislike them all except these guys. There is too much multi wound shots (aka high damage) in the game and with every codex it gets worse. I don't really like intercessors. Multi wounds on basic models just really haven't gone well for me. I'd rather lose a single wound model to a shot than a multi wound model to a shot.... that said Helblasters actually do something for this army imo.

 

 

- Maybe a solo Shield/Hammer Termie?

The solo bikers/VV/termie days are long gone man. That's the first thing they Erreta'd. An assassin could possibly help. Specifically, the Culexus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

- Heh, that's funny. I've been running a solo Termie in the odd unit for a while, including my last game. No one plays Deathwatch. At this point I'm pretty sure I could include a squad of Khorne Berzerkers in a unit and say it's part of a new wave of vets the Deathwatch are trying out, and no one would question it.

 

- A culuxes is good though. Just hard to get in the list without penalties.

 

 

 

Speaking of forgeworld, I don't recall what all deathwatch go access to.  Is there anything there that could help us out?

You get access to the entire index. So far I've picked up and used tarantula turrets; they help quite nicely - both as anti deep strike (protecting my small back line) and as extra dakka. AND THEY'RE 27 PTS PER MODEL. I still have a leviathan dread and sicarian tank to build but I'm thinking the sicarian may be the only other decent choice since it offers great anti-air. The xiphon interceptor has been getting a lot of love in the forums, being a cost efficient vehicle hunter (2 TWIN-las and 3 missiles?). I think... there's a multi-melta razorback? Could be for funzies.

 

 

 

- The Tarantulas are a real thing. Personally I won't use them, but if someone wants to turn it up a notch there's plenty of marines playing fire base tarantula warfare now. It's another example of the wonkiness of Forgeworld. Stuff is all over the map. 

 

I do have a Sicaran, and a Fire Raptor which I've never painted (because I've shared them with multi armies in the past and could never decide!)

 

I still think the Leviathan looks good on paper, but this thread is about laying down the bodies. Specialization sits in the squads... hopefully filling those roles for you. 

 

Since Mobility is such an issue without the formation rules, I would think the points have to be spent on at least one flyer, LazerRazers/AssaultRazers and/or Landraiders (a little reluctant to do this since Astra now. I see some guys are toting 16-20 lascannons in their lists without issue).

 

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Prot

[Vel'Cona]

As others have said, I feel like "simplifying' DW is a great idea to try and get more mileage out of the list, but unfortunately this will always be an uphill battle vs. armies like Nids or IG that can throw more bodies downfield.  SM in general can't really win a "numbers" game and the awkward list restrictions DW deal with make this even less desirable.

 

I suppose the biggest issue I take with such a concept is it's in direct opposition to the background for DW; they're specially equipped elites that are very much about engaging in specific roles.  Taking that specialization away homogenizes DW in a way that I find unsatisfying as a fan of the Xenos hunters.  Nevermind shoehorning in FW tomfoolery, which has always been a sticking point for me (which is completely personal and not reflective of the RAW or competitive meta, such as it is).

[Prot]

I guess what this boils down to is I'm looking at what the Index DW does best. I feel the one point of the force excelling over others is an infantry based, high end mob of SIA units. 

 

Really that's it. It's not assault, it's not tanks, it's not Primaris, or some other fancy unit. So until the Codex comes out, I could just put these guys away... I think a lot of people have.

 

I play Grey Knights as well and they have a very similar feel to DW. The big difference being the GK hit harder in CC, where the DW have better (or should I say more flexible) bolters. (GK do okay at spam herd clearing). GK specialized guns are pretty rotten though. DW have the use of two important bonuses though: Combi-weapons (melta for me) and Frag (a little too expensive but it's better than IHB's I suppose!)

 

GK really only have mass clearing storm bolters in somewhat limited (by body count) quantities. DW are limited by expensive body count as well, just with more shooty options. GK have more assault options, and better/survivable Termies (if that is even possible today... after my last game I don't know.)

 

So what's the tipping point? GK can get anywhere with greater ease than DW (no pods required, but the 50/50 rule is in effect still on reserves which is really hard).

 

Tipping Point 2: GK have a psychic phase. It's not really -that- powerful. The way Psychics work now and the way GK have nerfed smite it's really a weird dynamic. BUT DW still really can't rely on this to compensate for lack of killing power.

 

Both armies are similar though. One lives off a Stormraven to get stuff started on the table (perhaps a LR), the other a Corvus (or LR). The rest is really a dodgy, cat and mouse game of trying to overwhelm your opponent in key areas of the table. 

 

So that's what got me thinking again about just revisiting what the army does best, multilply that and work in some anti-tank where needed. Speed is key though. The only other thing I could think of that doesn't -kill- the numbers game is... as I mentioned; Helblasters. Good support for an SIA , infantry based army. If only they could 'duck' when walking into a Corvus!

Edited November 15, 2017 by Prot

[robofish7591]

To be fair, no matter how many vanilla units you take, you will still be greatly outnumbered by your opponent.  Deathwatch is always going to be an extremely elite force.  I totally understand where you are coming from though, the individuality of the deathwatch is what made me interested in them in the first place.  Its basically an entire army made up of characters.  

 

Also, that plasma destroyer sounds pretty sweet... I may need to convert one of those up.

[Kolyarut]

As others have said, I feel like "simplifying' DW is a great idea to try and get more mileage out of the list, but unfortunately this will always be an uphill battle vs. armies like Nids or IG that can throw more bodies downfield.  SM in general can't really win a "numbers" game and the awkward list restrictions DW deal with make this even less desirable.

 

I suppose the biggest issue I take with such a concept is it's in direct opposition to the background for DW; they're specially equipped elites that are very much about engaging in specific roles.  Taking that specialization away homogenizes DW in a way that I find unsatisfying as a fan of the Xenos hunters.  Nevermind shoehorning in FW tomfoolery, which has always been a sticking point for me (which is completely personal and not reflective of the RAW or competitive meta, such as it is).

 

Actually, that's one kind of cool upside about playing power level games - you get almost no bodies on the table, but you get to play with *all* the toys. At 9PL per Kill Team, though, you barely get to field any models, so you pretty much have to hide them all in transports and delete one high value target per squad for them to even have a chance to recover their costs.

[robofish7591]

Yeah, power level games are pretty rough on deathwatch, especially if you want to add extra members to your kill team.

[Vel'Cona]

Not that it's relevant to the topic at hand, but I for one count PL as a failed concept for anything beyond beer-and-pretzel purely friendly games, and even then it leaves me frustrated because the lack of nuance is simply more than my self-diagnosed OCD can handle :P

 

That being said, I see what Prot is going for with the "Occam's Razor" DW approach.  I've done some of this with the generic SM lists I've been messing around with lately and it's a great way to get back to the "basics" of an army list (especially one that presents overt challenge, ie. doesn't play well).

[robofish7591]

I don't mind powerlevel games with most armies.  I have really only had problems with units that have lots of options *cough* deathwatch *cough* as they tend to be a lot higher powerlevel than others.  I wouldn't play powerlevels as pick up games though, as it is pretty open for abuse... not that regular points aren't, but they are closer.

[Aothaine]

I feel that Deathwatch is not able to support itself right now. Attach them to other armies and give them their specific goals for competitive play. Otherwise, I would just use them for fun games. 

 

Vanilla Vet units with bolters/chainsword is how I would field them. Then I would just take three quad-lascannon preds. You get decent anti-tank and bodies. You might even want to specialize 1-2 units with specific goals in mind. The most I would do is this.

 

5 vets (bolter&chainsword) & Terminator SS+TH (a few of these kill teams)

 

Get 1 primaris apothecary per unit

 

Watch master

 

three Quad-lascannon preds

 

Simple list but it should be able to do what it is designed to do. Capture objectives and unleash hell on your opponent. Use the Term to block as much small arms fire that you can and try and bring him back every turn with the apothecary. Seems a bit gimmicky though. But if I was running pure DW it is how I would build them right now.