Sorcerer Question

[Jbird]

Hi all, I am looking at making a list with a chaos space marine sorcerer with a jump pack and warp to time to help slingshot morty up the board. Would I need to take a auxiliary support detachment at -1 command point to do this, and if so does that have an effect on my armies abilities (inexorable advance?). Am I right in saying all my other DG only detachments still get this ability? Thanks!

[Azekai]

You could put him in an auxiliary detachment, but a less taxing method of including a tasty warptime sorc is it is to stick him in an otherwise DG detachment that doesn't have anything you want to give the Legion trait (IE, no princes, elite infantry, plague marines, or dreadnoughts). Otherwise, you just make a 'chaos' detachment full of DG units, and this sorcerer is also there. Stuff like poxwalkers or forgeworld daemon engines, or even crawlers or blight haulers. These units are still DG, they benefit from rerolls/auras ect, but you can also have a sorcerer alongside them without messing anything up.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

You could put him in an auxiliary detachment, but a less taxing method of including a tasty warptime sorc is it is to stick him in an otherwise DG detachment that doesn't have anything you want to give the Legion trait (IE, no princes, elite infantry, plague marines, or dreadnoughts). Otherwise, you just make a 'chaos' detachment full of DG units, and this sorcerer is also there. Stuff like poxwalkers or forgeworld daemon engines, or even crawlers or blight haulers. These units are still DG, they benefit from rerolls/auras ect, but you can also have a sorcerer alongside them without messing anything up.

I'm pretty sure the DG sorcerer wouldn't have access to warptime... 

[Azekai]

 

You could put him in an auxiliary detachment, but a less taxing method of including a tasty warptime sorc is it is to stick him in an otherwise DG detachment that doesn't have anything you want to give the Legion trait (IE, no princes, elite infantry, plague marines, or dreadnoughts). Otherwise, you just make a 'chaos' detachment full of DG units, and this sorcerer is also there. Stuff like poxwalkers or forgeworld daemon engines, or even crawlers or blight haulers. These units are still DG, they benefit from rerolls/auras ect, but you can also have a sorcerer alongside them without messing anything up.

I'm pretty sure the DG sorcerer wouldn't have access to warptime... 

 

The thread was about a CSM sorcerer, not a DG one. The CSM sorc is the one thing in the detachment that isn't DG. At the same time, the specific units I listed don't benefit from a Legion trait, so they can be in a 'chaos' detachment alongside the CSM sorc without any inconvenience.  

Edited November 16, 2017 by Azekai

[Charlo]

Bring him with two squads of cultists in a small detachment to pop in front of your pox walkers to milk the dead rise/ cloud of flies strats.

[Jbird]

Great ideas thanks guys, going to throw him in a patrol detachment with 10 cultists, not costing a command point and getting to use them strats is a great plan

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

 

 

 

You could put him in an auxiliary detachment, but a less taxing method of including a tasty warptime sorc is it is to stick him in an otherwise DG detachment that doesn't have anything you want to give the Legion trait (IE, no princes, elite infantry, plague marines, or dreadnoughts). Otherwise, you just make a 'chaos' detachment full of DG units, and this sorcerer is also there. Stuff like poxwalkers or forgeworld daemon engines, or even crawlers or blight haulers. These units are still DG, they benefit from rerolls/auras ect, but you can also have a sorcerer alongside them without messing anything up.

I'm pretty sure the DG sorcerer wouldn't have access to warptime...

The thread was about a CSM sorcerer, not a DG one. The CSM sorc is the one thing in the detachment that isn't DG. At the same time, the specific units I listed don't benefit from a Legion trait, so they can be in a 'chaos' detachment alongside the CSM sorc without any inconvenience.

I completely understand the topic is about Sorcerers. So, please clarify what you meant by, "a less taxing method of including a tastey warptime sorcerer is to stick him in a death guard detachment...."

 

No sorcerer that can be included in a DG detachment can have access to warptime as the codex does not allow it. An additional detachment is necessary no matter what...

Edited November 16, 2017 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Azekai]

To reiterate: it is a CSM sorcerer, from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, in an OTHERWISE DG detachment. This fellow is not DG, and can take warptime. Everything else is DG in the detachment, which improves aura synergy and all the DG units in said detachment cannot benefit from the DG Legion trait (so, no shooty infantry or dreads or DPs). Therefore, they can all happily play together.

However, I think I like Charlo's idea a bit more. Taking the cultists allows for access to CSM strategies, which can be very powerful.

[Jbird]

The chaos space marine strats could only be used on the C:SM detachment though, right? And vice versa for the DG strats?

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Azekai, evidently you are missing my point. Your original post seems to say you are suggesting OP take a regular CSM Sorcerer in a Death Guard detachment. Something he would not be able to do. The CSM Sorcerer is an HQ option for CSM... and could not fit into a DG detachment. I'm fully aware of what OP is asking for. I'm concerned you post was unintentionally misleading.

 

As OP has already discovered the best way to make this work is either a Patrol detachment with tax or possibly the supreme command detachment if more *CSM* sorcerers are desired.

[Azekai]

Azekai, evidently you are missing my point. Your original post seems to say you are suggesting OP take a regular CSM Sorcerer in a Death Guard detachment. Something he would not be able to do. The CSM Sorcerer is an HQ option for CSM... and could not fit into a DG detachment. I'm fully aware of what OP is asking for. I'm concerned you post was unintentionally misleading.

 

As OP has already discovered the best way to make this work is either a Patrol detachment with tax or possibly the supreme command detachment if more *CSM* sorcerers are desired.

Not sure if you are being obtuse or if you just don't understand what the word 'otherwise' means. The detachment is a chaos detachment, made up almost wholly of DG + 1 CSM sorcerer. You can do that because all units share the 'chaos' keyword and you don't lose out on meaningful Legion traits if your DG units are things like poxwalkers. This is the third time I have said that, and it is still true. It may not be the most efficient way to do things, but it will get you warptime without the cost of CP.

 

The chaos space marine strats could only be used on the C:SM detachment though, right? And vice versa for the DG strats?

It depends. You can use a strategy from a faction that you have an entire detachment of. Having another detachment essentially 'unlocks' the strats from that other faction. Often that isn't terribly useful, but there is a fair amount of overlap for the forces of chaos; a lot of CSM strats specify things like 'hellbrute' or 'cultists' and you can use those strats on anything with those keywords, regardless of detachment. A lot of CSM strats need to be used on 'Heretic Astartes,' for example, and Death Guard are that. A common use is to use both 'tide of traitors' and 'the dead walk again' to turn a bunch of cultists into zombies and then recycle the cultists.

[DuskRaider]

You can use a CSM Sorcerer in a Death Guard detachment, but you will no longer be Battleforged and you lose access to the Death Guard traits. Kind of dumb when you could just take a separate detachment...

[Jbird]

Yeah it need a to be battle forged as it's a list I'm working on for my first tournament

[Azekai]

You can use a CSM Sorcerer in a Death Guard detachment, but you will no longer be Battleforged and you lose access to the Death Guard traits. Kind of dumb when you could just take a separate detachment...

At the risk of beating a dead horse (lots of people seem to be getting confused about how to make armies), you do not lose 'battle-forged.' They do not have to share all faction keywords in order to form a kosher, battle-forged detachment, just one. From the 8th main rulebook:

 

 

 

FACTIONS

All units belong to one or more of the many Factions that fight for dominance across the galaxy. A unit’s Faction is important when

building a Battle-forged army because some Detachments require all units included in it to be from the same Faction. The Factions that a unit belongs to will be listed in the keywords section of its datasheet. For example, a Space Marine Captain has the IMPERIUM and ADEPTUS ASTARTES keywords, so belongs to both the Imperium and Adeptus Astartes Factions. This means that if a Space Marine Captain was part of a Detachment with the restriction that all units must be from the same Faction, all other units in that Detachment must either be from the Imperium Faction, or they must all be from the Adeptus Astartes Faction.

So in this case, the CSM sorc and the DG units all share the 'chaos' faction keyword, so bam, you can have a chaos detachment that is still battle-forged.

 

It may not be efficient, but it certainly is within the purview of the rules.

[Panzer]

You can use a CSM Sorcerer in a Death Guard detachment, but you will no longer be Battleforged and you lose access to the Death Guard traits. Kind of dumb when you could just take a separate detachment...

To clarify, Azekai is talking about taking an ADDITIONAL entirely seperate mixed chaos detachment with Death Guard units that don't benefit from the DG trait and a CSM Sorcerer. Those DG units while not having access to the DG trait will still be able to benefit from all abilities etc. that target Death Guard units.

It's basically the same as taking a seperate CSM detachment just that instead of getting access to the CSM stuff you'll have more units you can target with DG targeting stuff. Hence why he said that taking a CSM detachment instead of his suggestion is probably the better idea.

[DuskRaider]

Ahh yes, he's 100% correct then. Apologies, it seems I got it mixed up with the conversation above.

[Closet Skeleton]

Warp timing Mortarion is one of those neat ideas that often ends up an unnecessary kerfuffle in practice. He's just not as survivable as Magnus (who is cheaper and can do an inbuilt warptime), so throwing him up ahead of your army basically just turns a 470 point fire magnet into a close to 600 point one.

[Jbird]

I did wonder if it's worth the additional points, but I guess your ensuring you get morty up close to at least do some good damage before taking lots if fire, otherwise you risk him being shot of the board without doing anything right? Plus an additional psyker on the board is always nice

[Charlo]

That's why you get some Deathshroud nearby ;)

[asteroidjawa]

You could do a Supreme Command detachment with Morty, a CSM Sorc/Ahriman(also gives access to death hex which is amazing) and two other HQ's(demon Heralds/Malefic Lords/Princes).  Gives you a command point, some extra psykers and none of them care about losing Inexorable Advance.  Down side is it gets pricey and you will want some cultist/pox walkers to screen the characters.  

[Wolf Lord Cuneglas]

I thought the FAQ allowed a DG Jump Pack sorcerer out of the index. The index sorcerer is allowed warptime, prescience or whatever that third one is. Did I misinterpret something?

 

He doesn’t get disgustingly Resilient but is allowed access to the other powers.

[Plaguecaster]

I thought the FAQ allowed a DG Jump Pack sorcerer out of the index. The index sorcerer is allowed warptime, prescience or whatever that third one is. Did I misinterpret something?

He doesn’t get disgustingly Resilient but is allowed access to the other powers.

Follow the steps

1. Does the chaos Sorcerer from the index have a dataslate in the DG codex : yes move to 2

2. are there wargear options that only appear in the index dataslate: Yes a jump pack

Use the codex dataslate but you can choose to use the index for its wargear options

So this means for a jump pack sorcerer you use the standard dataslate in the DG codex (which can't take CSM powers including warptime) but you give it a jump pack since it is an index wargear option that isn't available in the DG codex

Edited November 18, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Azekai]

 

So this means for a jump pack sorcerer you use the standard dataslate in the DG codex (which can't take CSM powers including warptime) but you give it a jump pack since it is an index wargear option that isn't available in the DG codex

 

Except not in that specific example, because Death Guard can't take the Sorcerer with Jump Pack. The jump pack is not a piece of wargear, but a different entry for the sorc altogether (makes sense?!!?!?) and Death Guard explicitly do not get access to that unit, as listed on pg 57 of the Chaos Index.

 

This crap is clear as mud. You have the freedom to take whatever you want, but figuring out how those units interact and group in detachments is a kludgey nightmare.

[Wolf Lord Cuneglas]

I’ve been using the index sorcerer with the index powers. I’m trying to game it a little, but that was how I read the flow chart. No it does not have a data sheet so I’m using the index.

 

I use warp time for my death shroud not Mortarion

[radionausea]

 

So this means for a jump pack sorcerer you use the standard dataslate in the DG codex (which can't take CSM powers including warptime) but you give it a jump pack since it is an index wargear option that isn't available in the DG codex

 

Except not in that specific example, because Death Guard can't take the Sorcerer with Jump Pack. The jump pack is not a piece of wargear, but a different entry for the sorc altogether (makes sense?!!?!?).

In the index the jump pack is an option for sorcerers; there's not a separate datasheet called "Sorcerer with Jump Pack", its just sorcerer. DG sorcerers can take jump packs, but they will only have access to the Contagion discipline.

 

You can take a sorcerer on Palanquin of Nurgle (FAQ gave DG access to it) for warptime while retaining the DG keyword throughout.