Land Raider Excelsior, phasing out or awaiting new rules

[chapter master 454]

So originally the Excelsior is a Warhammer World Exclusive (something I am proud to own from my own trip there) and thus the rules for it come with the box. As far as I understand, the Index was to give rules for units in the new edition and thus naturally the Excelsior and Primaris (Rhino) were given stand in rules. The question is, why wasn't the excelsior given rules in the Space Marine codex? Is this hinting that the Excelsior and Primaris are to receive new sheets at some point to be sold with the models at warhammer world or are these tanks on their way out?

 

The main reason I want to talk about this is that it is a unique case among units. It was an external unit and supported as such.

 

Has anyone heard anything regarding this awesome duo or does it seem like they are on their way out?

[Xenith]

Neither, in my opinion. The indexes the there to give relic models rules. Anything not currently sold by GW directly didn't go on the codexes. In theory.

 

Seeing as 95% of players don't have easy access to Warhammer World, including them would push people towards eBay scalpers instead of gw.

[Jolemai]

Neither, in my opinion. The indexes the there to give relic models rules. Anything not currently sold by GW directly didn't go on the codexes. In theory.

 

Seeing as 95% of players don't have easy access to Warhammer World, including them would push people towards eBay scalpers instead of gw.

This. Same reason the Imperial Space Marine, Plaserback, etc, haven't been ported over.

To add, putting their rules in the Index is for those of us who have them to use them and it means we don't have to re-buy or bother customer support for an update.

[Ishagu]

The kits weren't hard to convert however. I think they should have been included.

[sockwithaticket]

Ease of conversion or kitbash seems to have had little bearing on some of the 8th restrictions/decisions.

[Halandaar]

As above; anything that isn't generally available from GW via "normal" channels isn't in the Codex. Same goes for Imperial Space Marine, Rifleman Dreads, LasPlas Razorbacks, Chaplains on Bikes and so forth. Doesn't mean anything.

 

The kits weren't hard to convert however. I think they should have been included.

 

It's also not hard to convert a Legion of the Damned squad equipped entirely with storm shields, plasma cannons and jump packs. Not sure that either point is really relevant to what gets included in a Codex when we know exactly what GWs criteria for inclusion is.

[Ishagu]

The thing is, this kit exists and is currently in production. Yes, it's only sold in one place but the rules should still be in the Codex.

You get around the limited affordability by it being so easy to convert.

[sockwithaticket]

The thing is, this kit exists and is currently in production. Yes, it's only sold in one place but the rules should still be in the Codex.

You get around the limited affordability by it being so easy to convert.

You can make the same argument for Dreadnought Autocannon or Heavy Flamer arms or the Las-plas razor turret since FW currently has kits in production for these options. FW might limit the availability to some, but as hobbyists have shown for years, these things can be converted.

 

Similarly, though not quite the same, characters, command squads (plus a ton of models/kits you can use to represent them) and bikes are all produced. All can be kitbashed to make unit options that were lost.

 

Again, ease of conversion or kitbash seems not to have been a consideration in whether something made it to 8th.

[Ishagu]

At least the various Dread weapons like Autocannons and what not will be supported in FW unit rules releases.

All those options are still available to Mortis Dreads for example.

[sockwithaticket]

At least the various Dread weapons like Autocannons and what not will be supported in FW unit rules releases.

All those options are still available to Mortis Dreads for example.

True and I'm very thankful to FW for that.

 

I would love for an actual GW person to explain the rationale for some of this stuff, because from the outside looking in it seems bizarre that something like the excelsior or a las-plas back not be supported in the codex or on a data slate or something.

[Stoic Raptor]

I'm pretty sure that if the reason for its omission is that it's sold, but not widely available... the problem is entirely within GW's ability to solve.  Including it in the Codex would perhaps encourage more people to purchase it from WHW (either for personal use or resale, GW doesn't care which) or to convert (which means more Land Raider and Razorback kits sold).  Or they could decide they've limited it long enough, and sell it in GW stores worldwide - meaning more people would buy the kit.

 

Not including it in the Codex does not encourage any of these solutions - and therefore, doesn't make GW any money.  But this wouldn't be the first case of them leaving money on the table when people want to buy something... 

[Mileposter]

I'm pretty sure that if the reason for its omission is that it's sold, but not widely available... the problem is entirely within GW's ability to solve.  Including it in the Codex would perhaps encourage more people to purchase it from WHW (either for personal use or resale, GW doesn't care which) or to convert (which means more Land Raider and Razorback kits sold).  Or they could decide they've limited it long enough, and sell it in GW stores worldwide - meaning more people would buy the kit.

 

Not including it in the Codex does not encourage any of these solutions - and therefore, doesn't make GW any money.  But this wouldn't be the first case of them leaving money on the table when people want to buy something...

It could also be a case of resource management. Making the kit more widely available does require resources, and those could be allocated to more important products/tasks/projects. "We'd like to do that, but we'd like to do this other thing more." It's a common issue for companies so I wouldn't be surprised if it's raising it's head here.

[Ishagu]

The kit is literally one upgrade sprue. Could be sold as an upgrade.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

If they make new sheets I hope they put them online. I own a set but don't live anywhere near close enough to go to WW on a lark, so it would be hard to pop by and grab them (as I didn't buy the index). A new datasheet would be nice for sure, but I think if we get rules for the tanks we will get rules for the Imperial space marine as well, since they are both unique releases in the index but not in the codex (AFAIR).

 

That's just wishlisting though, as I have no concrete info either way.

[Irbis]

I'm pretty sure that if the reason for its omission is that it's sold, but not widely available... the problem is entirely within GW's ability to solve.  Including it in the Codex would perhaps encourage more people to purchase it from WHW (either for personal use or resale, GW doesn't care which) or to convert (which means more Land Raider and Razorback kits sold).  Or they could decide they've limited it long enough, and sell it in GW stores worldwide - meaning more people would buy the kit.

 

Not including it in the Codex does not encourage any of these solutions - and therefore, doesn't make GW any money.  But this wouldn't be the first case of them leaving money on the table when people want to buy something... 

 

You're optimistic. What including them in Codex would most likely lead to was Kromlech or popmonkey or even china recasts crowd making terribly looking 'terrain robber superiourus' kit for normal land raiders, cannibalizing sales of premium box and at best leading to modest Land Raider sales boost, that might well be directed at ebay stock, not new one.

 

GW recently prefers to maybe even sell a bit less but give the profiteers less money and exposure. Is it good tactic? I don't know, it would surely be nice if they offered Excelsior for sale occasionally on their website, such as holidays, but it's also possible they see Excelsior as loss leader that serves as incentive for people to visit WW, not a regular unit. In that case, giving rules only to people who buy it would make sense, as they are supposed to be on-table ads for their biggest store, not to make more business for third party bits, which rules access proliferation would surely lead to.

[Stoic Raptor]

Your logic falls flat - the rules already exist in the Index, and today's FAQ explicitly states that they're legal to use.  If your "cannibal third party" scenario were true, it would have already happened when the Index came out. 

 

You're trying to say "If GW doesn't make it possible, someone else will" - when the reality of it is, it can be done with GW kits (but not exactly economically) and more importantly, no one else actually has.  And again, GW doesn't give a fig about eBay resales - they already got their money for the kit the first time it was purchased.

 

There's only one company that's causing GW to lose sales over this decision - and that is GW itself.  There are people (myself included) who'd buy the kit if it didn't entail a trans-oceanic flight.  That "loss leader" concept is nice if we're only talking about players in Great Britain, but scarce few Americans would make the pilgrimage just for the swag.  Even at the sometimes extortionary markups one sees on eBay, it's still cheaper to buy a $500 kit than a ticket across the Atlantic.

 

It can be done with regular Land Raider, Razorback and Predator kits (or the appropriate bits) for even less.  However, there's surely an untapped market of people who'd love to build the kit if only it could be more easily obtained.

 

The main reason third parties profit in your "rules access proliferation" scenario, is when GW doesn't  have a commercially available option.  GW would rather have you buy several kits just to convert a vehicle or squad (look at their Blood Bowl videos that have you buying 3 boxes of models just to make a team), and so that creates a market for a more affordable and simpler option elsewhere.

 

That's not "optimism", it's a realistic appraisal of yet another lost opportunity on GW's part.  People want to give them money, and far too often GW makes it hard to do so.  It's so prevalent that Uncle Atom of Tabletop Minions did a video about it.