Key guidelines/factors for a tournament-winning player?

[BIG ROB OF DEATH]

I started a post a few days ago along similar lines, but that one was more interested in exploring qualities/factors of AM-type armies/lists that are of tournament-winning caliber. Here I am asking something similar of the community, but geared more towards the intrinsic attributes/qualities/factors that make a player capable of winning a 2000 pt blind tournament. I'll start by drawing from what I consider the community consensus I've gathered from you all the past few months here on B&C:

 

(1. Having an army list that is of tournament-winning capability. No further mention here about lists and units, meta armies, etc.)

2. Sufficient gaming experience against a broad range of armies likely to be faced in said tournament

3. A waac mentality

4. Solid familiarity of rules and enemy codexes/indexes

5. A good plan for each game, taking into sharp consideration relevent victory conditions

 

 

Thanks in advance for all community contributions that I am sure will help all who have an interest in this matter! Lets roll!

[Dosjetka]

I disagree with point 3. Win at all costs implies you're ready to do anything, including cheating, to win. You definitely need to have the drive to win but within the bounds of the game rules and while respecting the unwritten but vital rules of good sportsmanship.

[Halfpint100]

I disagree with point 3. Win at all costs implies you're ready to do anything, including cheating, to win. You definitely need to have the drive to win but within the bounds of the game rules and while respecting the unwritten but vital rules of good sportsmanship.

I can not agree more with this one!

 

WAAC is common in tourney, but not essential. Look to Sun Tzu, if you know your army and your opponent you hae a much better chance. A TAC (take all commers) list and knowledge wins battles

[micahwc]

One of the first squad sergeants once told me, "If you ain't cheatin, you ain't trying".

 

But I agree, cheating is bad.

[Tirak]

Win at all costs does not mean cheating, and it's disingenuous to tar tourney style players with that epitaph. What it does mean is a serious commitment to victory within the confines of the rules. A WAAC player won't tell you that you missed a modifier, or he'll insist you measure for each unit moving, or won't let you play out of strict order. He will take the rules to their limit to squeeze out any advantage, and will use tactics that are considered cheasy. But he does not cheat. At that point you're not a player, you're a cheater.

[Mitchverr]

Tourny cheating falls more under "that guy" in my view over WAAC player, WAAC player can be a bit of a so and so, but they usually have a sense of keeping to the rules even if bending them, "that guys" will do whatever it takes to win outside the rules.

 

Least thats how I view them.

 

Knowledge about mobility and terrain usage is pivotal in my view.

A good grasp of table stratagem and localised tactics, 2 very different things, table stratagem is to take x amount of positions, keep away from the enemy, get close etc, tactics is when you decide on that local position how to do it, you can be a great tactical positioner, and lose due to losing focus of the tables stratagy.

[BIG ROB OF DEATH]

Win at all costs does not mean cheating, and it's disingenuous to tar tourney style players with that epitaph. What it does mean is a serious commitment to victory within the confines of the rules. A WAAC player won't tell you that you missed a modifier, or he'll insist you measure for each unit moving, or won't let you play out of strict order. He will take the rules to their limit to squeeze out any advantage, and will use tactics that are considered cheasy. But he does not cheat. At that point you're not a player, you're a cheater.

Thanks, Tirak. What you expressed on the matter is more consistent with what I've read from the community these past few months:  waac isn't cheating, waac is tenacious competition, and tournament winners are disproportionately skewed towards representing waac play.

[BIG ROB OF DEATH]

So, as best as I can figure out the recent batch of responses here, this is my summation of the current community contributions on the matter:

 

(1.  Having an army list that is of tournament-winning capability. No further mention here about lists and units, meta armies, etc.)

2.  Sufficient gaming experience against a broad range of armies likely to be faced in said tournament

3.  A waac mentality

4.  Solid familiarity of rules and enemy codexes/indexes

5.  A good plan for each game, taking into sharp consideration relevent victory conditions

6.  A non-waac mentality

7.  A drive to win

8.  Adherence to rules

9.  Good sportsmanship

10. Know your army and know your opponent

11. Appreciation for mobility implications and effective exploitation of terrain

12. A good grasp of table strategem and localized tactics

 

 

The beat goes on!

[Dosjetka]

Win at all costs does not mean cheating, and it's disingenuous to tar tourney style players with that epitaph. What it does mean is a serious commitment to victory within the confines of the rules. A WAAC player won't tell you that you missed a modifier, or he'll insist you measure for each unit moving, or won't let you play out of strict order. He will take the rules to their limit to squeeze out any advantage, and will use tactics that are considered cheasy. But he does not cheat. At that point you're not a player, you're a cheater.

Might be semantics but "win at all costs" (emphasis mine) means just that. Also, it doesn't at all mean that I label tournament players as WAAC players; I'm unsure from behind which couch you pulled that from.

 

Edit: I think we should agree to disagree and move on so as to not drag this topic off-topic. :)

[Major_Gilbear]

I would lose point #3 - I honestly don't think WAAC has a place in a hobby, regardless of how "competitive" it is.

 

What I would put in its place is knowing the rules inside-out (which is different to your point #8). Seriously, having an excellent grasp of *exactly* what you can and cannot do, along with understanding the rules (and FAQs) intimately will make you play a very tight game. I came to appreciate this in a new way about ten years ago when my friends and I got into Warmachine; things like realising that accurate measurement and model placement matter more than trying to leverage a poorly-worded rule, and that arguing about 0.5mm discrepancies in measurement is just sucking the enjoyment out of the experience for everyone. Get the rules right, understand the game mechanics (and geometry) properly, and you'll have both quicker games and far fewer arguments.

 

I would also move good sportsmanship up to #1. It actually saddens me that it's 9 out of 12 in your list.

 

 

Edit: Spelling.

[BIG ROB OF DEATH]

To be sure, at this time there is no intention in ranking in importance on my list. I merely am trying in good faith to report what I have read in this community over the past few months, and am continuing to read. Once its clear there are no more relevant contributions, then I will ask the community to prioritize them. Right now, I'm just trying to report what the community, in one form or fashion, has stated over time is important regarding this whole matter. Once this and my army list project are completed, I will separately post my own ranking of things I consider to be relevant to making a good player and good army for purposes of being viable tournament winners. Again, I make no judgments right now on either thread. I just want to see what the community has been saying, and will hopefully continue to say on these two matters. 

[CrusherJoe]

So, couple of things to add to this:

 

• Know what missions the tournament is going to use. ITC? ITC Champs? Book missions? Open War cards? They all have different things to build for. The ITC Champs missions in particular favor a more "balanced" army build. Read over the mission packs and see what objectives/scoring methods your army is strong and weak in, then adjust your build accordingly.
• Know your meta. There's a big difference between a store RTT and a Major GT. 
• Expect "bad matchups" -- you know, that one army that happens to be the hard counter to yours.
• PLAY THE MISSION. I mean, yeah, you can go for the table, but that's not very likely, and that being your only method of winning games will result in a 3/2, 2/3, 4/1 or 1/4 army -- not a Top 10 finalist. The ITC Champs missions are specifically designed around the idea of playing the mission and scoring every turn.
• Paint your . No, really. PAINT YOUR . There's a hobby aspect to this hobby and more and more major events are moving towards having painting rubrics/minimum hobby requirements. Don't be the turd that shows up with a bunch of gray plastic half-finished crap. 
• If you don't have a plan to put Magnus and the brimstone horde down by turn 3, you're gonna get your handed to you. Be on the lookout for the Magnus/Morty team up. It's nasty.
• Learn how to move your army quickly. Again, more emphasis is going to be placed on finishing games: more turns completed, more points scored. If you can't handle finishing 5 or 6 turns because you can't move 120 conscripts around quickly...you probably shouldn't be taking 120 conscripts.
• PLAY MORE GAMES! Nothing, and I mean NOTHING is better than experience with your list. Know your strats inside and out. Learn what orders to give when and to whom. Knows your datasheets like the back of your hand. You should never need to look at your army list while you're playing -- that should all be memorized.
• Don't waste time arguing rules. Call a judge. Accept their decision and move on.
• And while this should go without saying...look, like, don't be a douchebag. I've seen some of the so-called "elites" play and it's like watching two ambulance-chaser lawyers argue a case. Be precise, concise and courteous. If you have a bad game, discuss it with a judge. Remember GTs are supposed to be fun!

 

Okay, that's the things off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more (and some have probably already said some of the things I've said better) but that's what I've got for now.

[BIG ROB OF DEATH]

So, to update:

 

(1.  Having an army list that is of tournament-winning capability. No further mention here about lists and units, meta armies, etc.)

2.  Sufficient gaming experience against a broad range of armies likely to be faced in said tournament

3.  A waac mentality

4.  Solid familiarity of rules and enemy codexes/indexes

5.  A good plan for each game, taking into sharp consideration relevent victory conditions

6.  A non-waac mentality

7.  A drive to win

8.  Adherence to rules

9.  Good sportsmanship

10. Know your army and know your opponent

11. Appreciation for mobility implications and effective exploitation of terrain

12. A good grasp of table strategem and localized tactic

13. know the rules inside-out

14.  Get the rules right, understand the game mechanics (and geometry) properly.

15. Know what missions the tournament is going to use, and plan accordingly. 

16. Know your meta. 

17. Expect "bad matchups" and adjust accordingly

18. PLAY THE MISSION, especially taking into consideration turn-by-turn scoring opportunities

19. Paint your . No, really. PAINT YOUR .  

20. Have a plan to, for example, "put Magnus and the brimstone horde down by turn 3," or else!

21. Learn how to move your army quickly. Again, more emphasis is going to be placed on finishing games: more turns completed, more points scored. 

22. PLAY MORE GAMES! Nothing, and I mean NOTHING is better than experience with your list.

23. Know your strats inside and out.

24. Learn what orders to give when and to whom.

25. Knows your datasheets like the back of your hand. You should never need to look at your army list while you're playing -- that should all be memorized.

26. Don't waste time arguing rules. Call a judge. Accept their decision and move on.

27. And while this should go without saying...look, like, don't be a douchebag. 

 

We are really doing great! Don't stop now!

[CrusherJoe]

I would like to join the chorus of voices wanting the "WAAC mentality" business removed. There's a huge difference between having a winning mindset and a WAAC mentality. Winners are positive, optimistic, and constantly adapt to the changing nature of the game. Turn by turn, planning in advance, etc.

 

The WAAC player will quibble over .5mm of movement, will question everything you do, will pointlessly argue rules, and will try to do everything they just tried to call you on when it's their turn.

 

And they'll probably do it all while piloting a Magnus/Morty/Malefic Lord/brimstone army that's a sad mix of gray plastic and a few primered dudes with some dime-store "proxies" for their Malefics (at best).

 

THAT'S a WAAC mentality.

 

THAT'S a WAAC player.

 

They are abysmal human beings and playing them is a miserable, miserable experience. I want no part in propagating that mentality.

[Tirak]

Painted models has zero yo do with a WAAC player. I am struggling to think of any major tournament that doesn't hold the three color minimum rule, and likewise I don't know a major tournament that isn't WYSIWYG.

 

Yes, a WAAC player will call you on budging, especially if it happens suspiciously a lot around your units you're trying to charge into his lines.

 

I've never met a WAAC who argued about the rules. He'll tell you once then get the TO, and he won't care about the dirty looks you give him because it's the forth time he's done it because he wasn't satisfied with your interpretation of the rules.

 

A WAAC player will bring the most broken list possible, because he enjoys the extent to which the rules can be twisted to create an advantage.

 

What you're describing is That Guy. That guy is an :cuss on and off the field. He'll try to switch objectives on you and claim you just weren't paying attention. He'll waste your time and make you mad because he's dense as a neutron star and bought his list after going to some forum to see what the hot list is.

 

A WAAC wants to beat you within the confines of the game because he's also beating the game, and the rush of deconstructing that problem is powerful.

 

That Guy wants to beat you because he links his self esteem to being better than you in a hobby wargame.

[CrusherJoe]

@Tirak -- see, to me, you just described a serious, focused tournament player. I've known several that aren't what I consider WAAC players. WAAC players are "that guy" to me. True hardcore tournament players are not. I think we've just got a difference of opinion on nomenclature -- no biggie, it happens. However, in my area "WAAC" has a negative connotation whereas "tournament player" does not.

[BIG ROB OF DEATH]

Key guidelines/factors for a tournament-winning player?

 

 

Please, folks, keep in mind the basic intent of this topic! Now, its beyond the scope of my project here to definitively and absolutely define "waac", as I simply can't, nor is it likely that anyone could, really, and have it universally accepted. It means certain things to each of us, and I think that we begin to get off topic as we offer opinions, interpretations and denigrations related to this.

 

I respectfully submit that, much like US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's opinion in the case of Jacobellis vs Ohio, regarding pornography, where Stewart wrote, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that", -  it is similar regarding waac!

 

Waac may be a worthy discussion topic to be explored and fleshed out on some other postings, and I encourage someone to start such a discussion elsewhere. Will you pursue that for our community, CrusherJoe or TiraK? Anyone?

 

For my purposes here, I submit we have sufficient capacity to meaningfully grasp, appreciate and understand what waac means in relation to our gaming experiences at tournaments, even if, to roughly borrow from Justice Stewart, I can't intelligibly define it here and now.

 

Folks, waac exists; we know it when we see it! It is something we know impacts games! We know that a certain subset of blind tournament players and winners operate to some degree from this mentality, whether we like it or not!. Much like Justice Stewart struggled to identify and evaluate within the confines of his judicial authority and responsibility just what pornography is, and however distasteful, polarizing and controversial it is, for our purposes I will consider it sufficient that it exists and is relevant to our shared topic here, which is:

 

 

Key guidelines/factors for a tournament-winning player?

 

 

Lets keep rolling!

[BIG ROB OF DEATH]

Are these threads just troll jobs big rob?

 

At this point you have half the codex listed and another list of positive attributes in a gaming opponent and a human being in general.

 

To sum up; play the army list you design to get experience with said list, and don’t be a to other players.

 

 

I solicit contributions in good faith, as I am interested in getting back into 40k on a regular basis, and have (and always did, ever since starting 40k over 20 years ago, iirc) a particular interest in tournaments, as no doubt many in our community do. I seek the collective wisdom of our community on my two broad matters of interest. Once its clear that no further relevant contributions are forthcoming, I will ask the community to help prioritize their contributions as best we can figure them out to be, and then use and share as desired, and as I respectfully requested in my initial posts on the two threads.

 

That is all.

 

So, lets continue on topic, shall we?  

[tychobi]

Be well slept and fed. 

 

In my 20 or so years of tournament play I was traditionally tired from last minute painting and eating out of 711 on tourney weekends.  Drinking too much to boot.  Maturity and snacks have seen my wins jump big time in recent years.  Also bring comfortable footwear.  These are long taxing days of dice rolling.  Comfort is key to not burning out.  

[Tallarn Commander]

Also, if there are chairs available, try to remember to sit down during your opponent's movement phase. It gives your legs a nice rest.

[Halfpint100]

That is some good advice above that i forgot about. Long days of gaming are taxing on your feet and on your brain, cereal bars and plenty of water really helps to keep your concentration up. Remember a lack of concentration can easily make you do mistakes, doesn't matter how good your army is, mistakes can loose you the game.

[BIG ROB OF DEATH]

Looks like things have nearly run their course here. One more update:

 

(1.  Having an army list that is of tournament-winning capability. No further mention here about lists and units, meta armies, etc.)

2.  Sufficient gaming experience against a broad range of armies likely to be faced in said tournament

3.  A waac mentality

4.  Solid familiarity of rules and enemy codexes/indexes

5.  A good plan for each game, taking into sharp consideration relevent victory conditions

6.  A non-waac mentality

7.  A drive to win

8.  Adherence to rules

9.  Good sportsmanship

10. Know your army and know your opponent

11. Appreciation for mobility implications and effective exploitation of terrain

12. A good grasp of table strategem and localized tactic

13. know the rules inside-out

14.  Get the rules right, understand the game mechanics (and geometry) properly.

15. Know what missions the tournament is going to use, and plan accordingly. 

16. Know your meta. 

17. Expect "bad matchups" and adjust accordingly

18. PLAY THE MISSION, especially taking into consideration turn-by-turn scoring opportunities

19. Paint your . No, really. PAINT YOUR .  

20. Have a plan to, for example, "put Magnus and the brimstone horde down by turn 3," or else!

21. Learn how to move your army quickly. Again, more emphasis is going to be placed on finishing games: more turns completed, more points scored. 

22. PLAY MORE GAMES! Nothing, and I mean NOTHING is better than experience with your list.

23. Know your strats inside and out.

24. Learn what orders to give when and to whom.

25. Knows your datasheets like the back of your hand. You should never need to look at your army list while you're playing -- that should all be memorized.

26. Don't waste time arguing rules. Call a judge. Accept their decision and move on.

27. And while this should go without saying...look, like, don't be a douchebag.

28. Be well-rested, nourished, clear-headed, comfortably attired, and avail yourself of seating as desired

[Brother Tual]

How are you going digesting all this?

 

Some key guidlines that werent raised..

 

Tactics.

 

Understand basic kill hammer, -if you dont know what killhammer is -

(www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153225-tactica-killhammer-40k-targ)

 

OODA loop.

 

Fork/skewer/bubblewrap/blocking/stacking/cluster/masking and other 'set' plays

 

Force multiplication

 

Basic math

 

Luck

[BIG ROB OF DEATH]

Ok, incorporating Brother Tual's latest contributions, we currently have:

 

(1.  Having an army list that is of tournament-winning capability. No further mention here about lists and units, meta armies, etc.)

2.  Sufficient gaming experience against a broad range of armies likely to be faced in said tournament

3.  A waac mentality

4.  Solid familiarity of rules and enemy codexes/indexes

5.  A good plan for each game, taking into sharp consideration relevent victory conditions

6.  A non-waac mentality

7.  A drive to win

8.  Adherence to rules

9.  Good sportsmanship

10. Know your army and know your opponent

11. Appreciation for mobility implications and effective exploitation of terrain

12. A good grasp of table strategem and localized tactic

13. know the rules inside-out

14.  Get the rules right, understand the game mechanics (and geometry) properly.

15. Know what missions the tournament is going to use, and plan accordingly. 

16. Know your meta. 

17. Expect "bad matchups" and adjust accordingly

18. PLAY THE MISSION, especially taking into consideration turn-by-turn scoring opportunities

19. Paint your . No, really. PAINT YOUR .  

20. Have a plan to, for example, "put Magnus and the brimstone horde down by turn 3," or else!

21. Learn how to move your army quickly. Again, more emphasis is going to be placed on finishing games: more turns completed, more points scored. 

22. PLAY MORE GAMES! Nothing, and I mean NOTHING is better than experience with your list.

23. Know your strats inside and out.

24. Learn what orders to give when and to whom.

25. Knows your datasheets like the back of your hand. You should never need to look at your army list while you're playing -- that should all be memorized.

26. Don't waste time arguing rules. Call a judge. Accept their decision and move on.

27. And while this should go without saying...look, like, don't be a douchebag.

28. Be well-rested, nourished, clear-headed, comfortably attired, and avail yourself of seating as desired.

29. Tactics.
30. Understand basic kill hammer, -if you dont know what killhammer is -
(www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153225-tactica-killhammer-40k-targ)
31. OODA loop. 
32. Fork/skewer/bubblewrap/blocking/stacking/cluster/masking and other 'set' plays
33. Force multiplication
34. Basic math
35. Luck

 

Any more? Please post accordingly, and then we will soon move to the next phase of prioritizing all these suggestions/considerations. Thanks!

 

 

 

[BIG ROB OF DEATH]

So, having ample time to process recent releases/FAQs, etc, I was wondering if anyone had further interest in adding to this topic.......