Scout Sentinels vs Armoured Sentinels

[Captain Incompetence]

So I've started collecting a Imperial Guard army and slowly building it up. Currently I'm looking into fast attack options and I was thinking of adding some sentinels to the list, as they're just awesome looking models in my opinion. Unfortunately, I'm not entirely certain which variant I'd prefer.

 

I can see the scouts being quite useful for denying deepstriking units, or quickly engaging enemies with heavy flamers, but autocannons and lascannons seem a bit redundant on them. Armoured Sentinels on the other hand seem like a solid option to have some hard hitting weapons that aren't taking up a heavy slot. They're also quite a bit sturdier than heavy weapons teams, meaning the enemy will perhaps be forced to shoot their own heavy weapons at them instead of your tanks. However, I'm still not entirely sure if they're worth the pointcost.

 

So, what do you guys think about them? Do you prefer one over the other? What weapons do you bring with them and why?

[CoffeeGrunt]

What Regiment are you running? That'll be the deciding factor more than anything.

[Captain Incompetence]

I'm currently running Cadia, but I was also considering Tallarn or Steel Legion perhaps.

[TheShredder]

Well, outside of Tallarn, if you put a non-Flamer weapon on them then you're basically buying a turret. 

 

In this case, Scout Sentinels get a free move to get into position, whilst Armoured Sentinels are a bit tougher.

 

 

Anyway, I think there are a few considerations:

 

1) Regiment. Some regiments get more mileage out of some sentinels than others:

Cadian: Rerolls for standing still, so Armoured Sentinel 'turrets' are probably the best fit.
Catachan: Scout Sentinels with Heavy Flamers, as you get to reroll the number of shots.
Valhallan: Makes no difference.
Vostroyan: Anything other than the flamer will get +6" of range, so probably best to use the 'turret' variety of Sentinel.
Armageddon: The extra resilience against light weapons is good for both types of sentinel, but I'd probably lean towards Armoured so that they better match the stats of your Chimeras/Tauroxes.
Tallarn: The only type of Sentinel that can move and fire Heavy weapons without penalty. Scout Sentinels are probably more thematic here, but I think either variety is fine. I'd definitely lean towards Lascannons.
Mordian: Makes no difference.

 

2) What weapons you have in the rest of your list. e.g. my Armgeddon Lists frequently have a lot of Heavy Flamers on the Chimeras, so I'd hesitate to put them on my Sentinels as well (though it could be a laugh). 

 

3) List composition - especially with regard to Infantry vs Tanks. For example, if your list is entirely infantry except for the Sentinels, then every anti-tank weapon in your opponent's army will be drawing beads on them and them alone. Hence, it would probably be advisable to make them Scout Sentinels, as the extra point of AV and save on Armoured Sentinels is unlikely to matter. On the other hand, if you're using a lot of Tauroxes, Chimeras and/or Leman Russ, then making them Armoured Sentinels helps you avoid having 'soft targets' (at least until your infantry disembark).

 

4) Tactical flexibility. The thing about Scout Sentinels is that they're a lot more flexible than Armoured ones. Their scout move gives them a lot of options, not just for countering deep-strikes but also for making an early push on objectives, blocking charges and so forth. In contrast, outside of Tallarn, Armoured Sentinels might as well be pillboxes. Now, it could well be that a pillbox is all you want/need, but it's worth keeping in mind that you can't pull the same shenanigans with them.

 

5) Cost. I've often swapped out Armoured Sentinels in my lists for Scout Sentinels just to get that extra 15pts. 

[WarriorFish]

Indeed, as Shredder says movement penalty to accuracy hurts the Sentinel so Tallarn Sentinels are by far the best. The increase in durability is nice for Armoured Sentinels I've found them quite durable forcing the enemy to "waste" proper AT weapons on them or dispense with a lot of their standard stuff which is good for Guardsmen. However the cost is a fair factor as part of the appeal of Sentinels has always been being able to put some on the board without breaking the bank.

 

I think Scout Sentinels are more useful currently as being able to prevent Turn 1 deep strikers landing on top of you is huge and while they're unlikely to survive it they will buy you the extra turn you need to push for victory. That flexibility and relative cost goes a long way and helps counteract the BS penalty, something the Armoured Sentinel doesn't have.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I typically run two Armoured Sentinels in my Tallarn Brigade. They contribute without drawing too much attention, and draw away from the real armour. They've got Lascannons so they're a bit pricy, but can really sting at times.

 

I've also had some success with running a pair of Plasma Cannon Sentinels.

[micahwc]

I've only used armored, I don't really see the point in scout sentinels other than the cost savings, which is less than 2 guardsmen. Your extra move at the beginning doesn't really do much as they can reach most of the board with all their weapons already, and if you move them then they wont hit enough to be worth taking. I've found that they only survive if the enemy wants to shoot at other things more, as they are not tanky enough to survive any kind of concentrated fire.

 

Bringing three in a unit for Tallarn ambush can be nice if you don't want to ambush your larger vehicles.

[TheShredder]

I've only used armored, I don't really see the point in scout sentinels other than the cost savings, which is less than 2 guardsmen. Your extra move at the beginning doesn't really do much as they can reach most of the board with all their weapons already, and if you move them then they wont hit enough to be worth taking. I've found that they only survive if the enemy wants to shoot at other things more, as they are not tanky enough to survive any kind of concentrated fire.

 

Bringing three in a unit for Tallarn ambush can be nice if you don't want to ambush your larger vehicles.

 

Regarding their extra move, it's rarely about getting into range. It's generally about getting into a better firing position (e.g. in cover or past LoS-blocking terrain in or around your deployment zone) or to cover gaps in your army and thus deny deep-striking units (or push them further back).

Edited November 17, 2017 by TheShredder

[Tallarn Commander]

To reiterate what others have said, I have used both armored and scout sentinels in 2 of my 8th edition games and I really enjoyed both variants. They are much more mobile and durable this edition than any previous edition.

 

Take my praise with a grain of salt though, I've always been an enthusiastic fan of sentinels. At 3rd edition tournaments when I ran my 12 sentinel lists I would print out and hand out copies of my "sentinel tactica."

[librisrouge]

I'd like to point out that the Armored Sentinel is thematically superior to the scout sentinel for Armageddon Steel Legion, big time. The Steel Legion fights in such harsh environments that an open cockpit is both suicide and, much worse, corrosive to the machine itself. The original enclosed cockpit sentinel was a Steel Legion model for this reason.

[micahwc]

@theShredder,

 

Why use a scout move to fill a gap in my coverage when I can just deploy stuff in those gaps to begin with? I guess I just don't see the practicality.

[Halfpint100]

@theShredder,

 

Why use a scout move to fill a gap in my coverage when I can just deploy stuff in those gaps to begin with? I guess I just don't see the practicality

 

the scout move can take you out of your delployment zone, so if you do it right. 3 of them 17" apart can push deep strikers an extra 9" back

[Guardsman Bob]

I've also had some success with running a pair of Plasma Cannon Sentinels.

Really? I’ve been really hesitant to mess with anti-tank grade weapons because of the whole cost benefits concerns. Actually that’s more likely a mental thing considering Heavy Flamers aren’t all that cheep.

[Tirak]

A lascannon on a scout sentinal is great in my opinion. 10pts effectively, and every so often it'll blow up something important. Multilasers always disappoint, and I find flamers underwhelming.

 

I can't ever see why I'd want an armored sentinel. You lose the only thing that makes it good, the anti deepstrike bubble from the scout move. I always end up asking myself why not throw the points into infantry or towards a useful vehicle.

[CoffeeGrunt]

It's not that many points though. I dunno, I just prefer how they look as well tbh.

 

Personally I don't really rate the Heavy Flamer. You get one good shot, maybe, then you're public enemy number one.

[TheShredder]

Regarding Plasma Cannons, they seem like quite a risk if you overcharge them. Or do you just fire them normally?

[Vel'Cona]

Regarding Plasma Cannons, they seem like quite a risk if you overcharge them. Or do you just fire them normally?

 

I'd have to agree.  They do have a decent number of shots and the AP is best in-class (tied with the LC) but OC should be considered a desperation move, especially for Tallarn armies that will struggle to re-roll the 1s.  That's one case where Cadia might have the upper hand, but having to be stationary isn't good.

 

If you choose to fire PCs normally, they're still better than ML or HB against MEQ/TEQ and can be nice to whittle down wounded vehicles/monsters, though they compete directly with the AC in most cases (better AP, worse damage).  For my money I think the PC is probably better on a Leman Russ, not least of which because the LR can take Tank Orders to re-roll the 1s.

[Feral_80]

Can't really answer this without knowing what else you field in your army. Generally speaking, Scout are more useful/popular because we are very concerned by deepstrike denial.

[Withershadow]

 

Regarding Plasma Cannons, they seem like quite a risk if you overcharge them. Or do you just fire them normally?

 

I'd have to agree.  They do have a decent number of shots and the AP is best in-class (tied with the LC) but OC should be considered a desperation move, especially for Tallarn armies that will struggle to re-roll the 1s.  That's one case where Cadia might have the upper hand, but having to be stationary isn't good.

 

If you choose to fire PCs normally, they're still better than ML or HB against MEQ/TEQ and can be nice to whittle down wounded vehicles/monsters, though they compete directly with the AC in most cases (better AP, worse damage).  For my money I think the PC is probably better on a Leman Russ, not least of which because the LR can take Tank Orders to re-roll the 1s.

 

It's not only the ability to re-roll 1s, even if you do overheat, a Leman Russ only suffers a single wound.  A Sentinel evaporates.  There can be some really funny situations with overheating in this game.  For example, a moving non-Tallarn Sentinel firing at certain Eldar shenanigans will overheat on anything but a 6. 

 

I don't know if there is a huge difference between a regular profile plasma cannon (0.72 wounds vs marines) and a heavy bolter (0.65 wounds vs marines), especially given the former costs twice as much.

 

Regarding the topic of Sentinels, there are some other alternatives, as well.

 

Salamander scout vehicles are basically scout sentinels with an autocannon and heavy bolter, except you pay 20 points for +2T and +4W, so you basically get a super strong armoured sentinel with two guns that can make the same scout move as a scout sentinel.

 

If you're mostly after firepower, Tauros Venators are basically scout sentinels that trade the scout move for being way faster (15" vs. 9"), an invulnerable 5+ save when moving at least 10", and have a pair of lascannons they can fire on the move.  You do get a more expensive final module (86 vs 55 for a lascannon sentinel), but this gives some really nice FA mobile firepower to anyone who isn't Tallarn and doesn't care about the scout move.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Withershadow

[TheShredder]

 

 

Regarding Plasma Cannons, they seem like quite a risk if you overcharge them. Or do you just fire them normally?

 

I'd have to agree.  They do have a decent number of shots and the AP is best in-class (tied with the LC) but OC should be considered a desperation move, especially for Tallarn armies that will struggle to re-roll the 1s.  That's one case where Cadia might have the upper hand, but having to be stationary isn't good.

 

If you choose to fire PCs normally, they're still better than ML or HB against MEQ/TEQ and can be nice to whittle down wounded vehicles/monsters, though they compete directly with the AC in most cases (better AP, worse damage).  For my money I think the PC is probably better on a Leman Russ, not least of which because the LR can take Tank Orders to re-roll the 1s.

 

It's not only the ability to re-roll 1s, even if you do overheat, a Leman Russ only suffers a single wound.  A Sentinel evaporates.  There can be some really funny situations with overheating in this game.  For example, a moving non-Tallarn Sentinel firing at certain Eldar shenanigans will overheat on anything but a 6. 

 

I don't know if there is a huge difference between a regular profile plasma cannon (0.72 wounds vs marines) and a heavy bolter (0.65 wounds vs marines), especially given the former costs twice as much.

 

 

The difference is that, for some stupid reason, you can't take Heavy Bolters on Sentinels.

[Tirak]

Drop sentinels can, but you've gotta pay the Elysian tax since they can only bring Company Commanders and Lord Commissars as their HQ slot, and they're 40 points before guns. On the other hand, you can go nuts and give them multimeltas.

[imperialguard]

I’m about to start playing with the Cadian doctrine, and I think the armored sentinels may have a good place as a surrogate heavy weapon team in the backfield. A one shot weapon like lascannon or missile launcher has a better chance of hitting with them, and like Shredder said the opponent is going to have to throw focused anti tank firepower at it instead of aiming at my Leman Russes.

I don’t expect expect them to be all star game winning players, but they’re definetly more of a tactical problem for my opponent to consider than just opening fire on a toughness 3 heavy weapons team.

Edited November 17, 2017 by imperialguard

[zero88]

The big issue I have with both variants is the cost. Their offensive capabilities are just too limited. At least Scout Sentinels have the ability to do less quantifiable things, like dash for objectives and create a Deep Strike denial zone. That makes them the only real useful purpose for me, so I'd run them dirt cheap with Multi Lasers or maybe Flamers at most. They really should be about 10-15 points cheaper but I suppose we have enough really good options in the book already

[TheShredder]

The big issue I have with both variants is the cost. Their offensive capabilities are just too limited. At least Scout Sentinels have the ability to do less quantifiable things, like dash for objectives and create a Deep Strike denial zone. That makes them the only real useful purpose for me, so I'd run them dirt cheap with Multi Lasers or maybe Flamers at most. They really should be about 10-15 points cheaper but I suppose we have enough really good options in the book already

 

I think the annoying thing is that you're basically forced to upgrade their starting weapon because it's so utterly abysmal. The pilot would be better off opening the cockpit and throwing pineapples at his enemies than firing the Multilaser.

Edited November 17, 2017 by TheShredder

[Bonzi]

Honestly, multilasers should be rapid 3 or assault 3. They should be good at anti infantry or mobility, not a sad compromise weapon. Something to set them apart from heavy bolters which are better.