Get Ready For Chapter Approved

[Ishagu]

Damo, why the hatred for CA?

 

Annual updates for units and rules is a far better state of affairs than how we had it from 5th to 7th. You'd honestly prefer certain armies to dominate for years at a time whilst others languish behind and are forgotten?

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ishagu

[chapter master 454]

Seems like the common notes here are such:

The points update to matched play were not up to everyone's standards. This is universal as most changes seem to be non-issue to current trends or have just nerfed the nerfed and buffed the buffed. Space Marine players (including myself) are not content with the changes made as they didn't really address many of the issues we currently have. Meanwhile I believe Eldar are laughing their way to the bank.

 

The content regarding new missions and the like are well received generally, most that do acknowledge these missions consider them better than the base versions in the rulebook and are certainly fun.

 

The content for Open play (Apoc and BYOLR) are regarded as waste of space by many but welcome in equal parts by others. This is down to the almost civil war between players regarding Matched play and Open play, one side fighting for the game to be standardised to tournaments while the other side consider keeping these separate is a good idea (and I agree with the latter).

 

So from my gathering, I see the book at a huge 50/50. The content for Match Play players is lacking and a massive let-down consider this was supposed to help while for Open Play players there is a huge swathes of options now for their games and modelling. So this is quite clearly a book meant for open play, not matched play which thus in my reasoning gives credit as to why Matched Players are sore about it and rightly so. This was a book that took two formats, formats that are technically twins but matched has been around longer than Open but yet Open is the favoured twin. This book gives some passing love to Matched Play (I believe the only good part were the missions) while giving open play a whole new toy box and at the same time telling Matched Players they need this book to stay being Matched Play players despite it not being for them.

 

So what pros are there of this book? First off it shows GW is concerned for long term health of the game as they have stated this will be a regular book. They wish to support it with new content and updates but not in the old way of things where they would just make a new edition which was like trying to fix a leaking pipe by rebuilding the kitchen. This is the first of the books we have seen and while lackluster for Matched Play does at least show they are willing to make changes. Good thing. Some people are feeling slighted as their favourite big units (titans seem to be the target of this) are nerfed by their points into unplayable status unless they are using Open Play. This creates some awkward points.

 

First, should these large units even be allowed into standard Matched Play? Not talking about Forge World models in general but these big, lumbering super heavies that in lore can annihilate entire armies by themselves. The battles we fight in warhammer 40,000 are engagements of detachments. Large Skirmishes really. Are titans (or anything bigger than Imperial Knights and the like) really appropriate for these smaller scale battles? Aren't these units only supposed to be seen in the greatest of battles, the largest of battles? If so then once 40k hits these days about 2k points you are getting into Apoc territory (though with some changes of late to the game some may argue against this). At which point have Apoc games ever been anything serious? Come on, it's a game of just saying "bring out your WHOLE collection and lets go, no holds bar" at which point open play is perfect. If isn't a serious format and is more for the spectacle of the game, not the seriousness. This isn't to say you can't have serious apoc games in a campaign or the like but this comes round to what I say in my signature: The point of a game is to have fun, the objective is the win. Never get the two mixed up.

 

However on the other side, while this is the case for Apoc there is something to be said about the other units and their balances made as of current. While I will say Chapter Approved is largely a good book with some issues (which book doesn't) I feel while blown up, are worth giving feedback on. The points changes and current armies don't feel good. Space Marines is our focus right now but let's remember, Tau still have to wait for their book and are currently paying through the nose for their signature units and are turning to Drone/Infantry Spam (what we all hate) just to remain relevant. Even then some armies got a book and are still hurting, I've heard from GK players they aren't doing so hot right now due to some odd point choices and to cap this off Chaos and Space Marine armies have point values differ for the same unit effectively (and no, a models points should reflect their stats, not their options. That's why we pay points for weapons on a standard list now). This means what all Matched Play players were hoping for was some form of radical point reforms to some units that clearly have "too good last edition" tax and some are still paying it, now with V.A.T.!

 

I will side with the party that the CA is a good book but I will put forward that it was not perfect and certainly could of been done better. GW need to seriously consider their advertising for their books these days and remember they are playing a dangerous game splitting their community into two groups of Open and Matched. It only works if you have enough players. Enough players PER LOCAL SPOT! If a location only has 7 or so players, if 3 go to open and 4 go to matched then you have just destroyed a group as they may no be able to reconcile the difference (and while we all might like to see ourselves as adults who can talk things out and settle things, it isn't the case more times than not).

 

Just putting my two cents in here with some attempt at reasoning. Just hope it can bring to light some new thoughts and ideas for the discussion. 

[Damo1701]

Damo, why the hatred for CA?

 

Annual updates for units and rules is a far better state of affairs than how we had it from 5th to 7th. You'd honestly prefer certain armies to dominate for years at a time whilst others languish behind and are forgotten?

You be answered your own question.

 

6 months in to an edition, and the first "Annual Update" is released.

 

Either it shows GW have no faith in their product, or our Annual Update just became Bi-Annual.

 

Certain armies and certain builds of armies still dominate. Other builds of the same army can barely hold their own. Does that mean I should throw my preferences out, and collect/play the latest netlist?

[Mileposter]

6 months in to an edition, and the first "Annual Update" is released.

 

Either it shows GW have no faith in their product, or our Annual Update just became Bi-Annual.

"Annual Update" doesn't mean that they wait a full year before starting the updates. It means that Chapter Approved will be released once a year at Christmas time.

[Schlitzaf]

What Penth just said. Also Chapter Approved is more akin to “General Handbook Ed1” with 8th Edition launch being the launch of Age of Sigmar. So we can start seeing the game more formally enter the ‘complete’ and intended stage. Atleast imho.

 

The interaction of Strategem Points with Mission Rolls, being I think something missed initially in development. So the six new eternal and six new maelstrom missions represent the core of how they intend to balance game design.

 

1) Dynamic Armies over Gunline. The BRB missions with only 4 Objectives and no real restriction to prevent camping. Resulted in the increase of Gunlining.

2) Favoring of Combined Arms. The new mission types from NotKill Points to New Dawn of War, all drastically change how you will fight and build your armies. Ascension favors armies going to a superfriend but New Dawn of War favors larger armies for have larger and more reasonable deployments. The new base mission and variable point mission, both help gunlines but incentive single blow alpha strike.

3) The missions represent a dramatic change in how armies play out. While list building is not likely to be dramatically different. Armies that could simply gunline or alpha strike will found themselves at the mercy of dynamic armies. And lose by Objectives

 

If you don’t want Chapter Approved I won’t force you. But comes 2+ Years, and you still adamantly refuse to get the latest Chapter Approved. Because “I bought my Codex and Index”, then I will look for another opponent. I could refuse to play C:SM and still use my C: Black Templars, until 8th edition, I am certain most folks won’t be overjoyed at having a game.

 

And I am a casual competitive, so in that way I admit the book more skewed to me. And my Rattlings got points increase. While my Intercesssors got cheaper. Using the rules gives me a benefit (+10 Points) but had they not? I still would have gotten them.

 

If not for the Points, once I heard about the new missions and saw the new missions myself I would have. My only real complaint is the deployment maps aren’t in the book. Which is intensely frustrating. I tangented.

 

Chapter Approved this year feels more like something to start the tradition, and give the remaining armies some toys. You don’t need to buy it, and I certainly won’t look down on anyone who doesn’t (Well I won’t look down on anyone who doesn’t buy it but beside the point). But come next year or the year after, if you keep preaching “I bought my Codex and Index 3+ Years ago no Paid DLC for me,” then unless I know you, I’d likely find someone else to game with.

 

At the end of the day, I want to sit down and play a game. Laugh have fun, joke about how my Emperor”s Champion rolled 4 one’s to Hit twice despite Rerolls. But if I sit across a player whose first inclination is too moan about prices or otherwise, normally that means the resulting game isn’t gonna be very fun.

 

THAT SAID. Damo the way you phrased your first statement “oh show me these new missions. Here is my list I am using x for Points.” Wouldn’t set off warning bells to me personally. And I wouldn’t care. Heck I might not even even notice unless you bring it up.

 

Words. All I am trying to say attitude matters.

[battle captain corpus]

I just prescribe to an older format...that the rulebook is the main rules and that each army has a Codex. That Codex (love it/hate it/spread it on toast) is the necessary purchase I will make to play my chosen army to the best of its ability until a new Codex comes out.

 

I wont be conned into thinking that an "update" should cost me money because its jazz hands and bound. Especially if its within 6 months of the game even coming out. And let alone the "Index" post release rubbish too.

FAQ's I'll let slide, if they're free and progress the nature of my hobby then awesome. I'm not paying a cent for them though as I spend enough of my hard earned credits on minis based on what the Codex allows me to have.

 

Frankly, it smacks of the ridiculous nature Chaos players had during End Times Warhammer, needing 4 books to play some armies at tournaments.

 

It's a lazy, cheap and nasty trick to fix a problem GW should've rigorously playtested through and/or had feedback about before release etc.

 

That's my grumbly 2 credits worth...

 

BCC

[Damo1701]

See, this is one of the "grating points" when these books come out.

 

I'm more than willing to accede to a request, providing that conditions aren't placed on that request.

 

Regardless of time or whatever, if GW want to change core parts of the game, they should be doing it via PDF. Personally, I resent the implication from some that unless I have scrawled in my codex, or lug another book around, my list is not valid. I mean, isn't that what GW is telling us? Unless we buy this paid for patch, we cannot use our models?

 

I wouldn't have minded quite so much if the model prices were cheaper.

 

Yes, a lot of my objection is based on cost. 8th edition has been my most expensive so far.

[utilityzero]

GW could help balance the game with a... I don't know, escalation level or something. At level 1 only infantry and weakest characters. 2 add transports and extra heavy weapons or turn it up to 11 and have a warlod titan.

 

The game can not be balanced without some sort of additional restriction beyond points. They can't even seem to balance different types of troops let alone make a game where the same number of points worth of tactical marines is worth the same number of points of Imperial Knights. It's too much for anyone I think. I think doing away with the force org is the decisive factor in 40k's imbalanced nature right now.

[Ishagu]

The thing is, the game is more balanced than it's been in years.

If you play with decent terrain anyone can enjoy a few good turns.

 

There are no community driven Erratas or banned units. It's pretty much a golden age

[D3L]

I think the jury has been out long enough that most of us understand how flawed the 8th edition approach is compared to the previous editons, especially with the blatent power creep/model selling drives in the last 8 codexs, forget the talk that this edition was supposed to absolve GW and rise us all beyond such trivialities its only served to deepen the divide and fermented bad feeling toward GW, perhaps more so than any other switch.

Have they streamlined? No
Have they gone "mainstream", no, indeed their collector base has tangibly shrunk due to various lore changes and new model lines being counter to what some wanted

in short Chapter Approved is a balm on a dead weight.

Bring on 9th,(aka the return to grimdark)

Edited December 5, 2017 by D3L

[Ishagu]

8th edition has been a massive success, so I'm not sure how you've reached your conclusion about "balm on dead weight"

[Brother Christopher]

I think the jury has been out long enough that most of us understand how flawed the 8th edition approach is compared to the previous editons, especially with the blatent power creep/model selling drives in the last 8 codexs, forget the talk that this edition was supposed to absolve GW and rise us all beyond such trivialities its only served to deepen the divide and fermented bad feeling toward GW, perhaps more so than any other switch.

 

Have they streamlined? No

Have they gone "mainstream", no

 

Chapter Approved is a balm on a dead weight.

 

Bring on 9th,(aka the return to grimdark)

 

I wonder, how many members of the community share this sentiment. I'm inclined to agree with you. It must be noted that GW makes efforts, at least from a PR perspective, to appear more aware of the needs of the community - they communicate that regularly. The painting and modelling tutorials are probably good for beginners. Although I only watch them incidentally, they appear to be nice and paint GW as a tongue-in-cheek, normal guys.

 

Unfortunately, much of what they actually do offer in terms of rules and releases (especially this largely disappointing Chapter Approved book) stands in stark contrast to their declarations regarding balance and streamlining. The core rules, I'm mostly okay with. But beyond that, the 40K system remains a justification for selling models and not a gaming system as such - the lack of balance between factions, or even within one Codex is mind-boggling (e.g. why would anyone take Land Speeders or Drop Pods in matched play in the SM Codex?).

 

Maybe the problem stems from their publishing schedule - the releases they are marketing as 'new' or as 'responses to the state of the game' are in fact already made, including Chapter Approved with its dubious point choices. Maybe the Nerd Department at GW want to be what we are said the company as a whole wants to be, but they are kept back by More Serious Departments. As it stands, it seems to me that GW suffers from a case of split personality: on the one hand, they want to be your cool gaming buddy, on the other hand, through the cracks, you can see that underneath they are an 'evil corporation'.

 

As for Chapter Approved, like many other, I want to add that I feel its contents should be free(ish) - available either online or in the White Dwarf. I guess some may hope that the next one will be better at addressing the needs of the game and its community.

[Ishagu]

I disagree with you completely.

Primaris marines for example - their rules are good but certainly not pushing sales. You're sounding very entitled and jaded without objective justification.

[Damo1701]

8th edition has been a massive success, so I'm not sure how you've reached your conclusion about "balm on dead weight"

If 8th has been a massive success, why have there been many people selling up and leaving the hobby? Why have there been discussions about the validity of the annual update appearing to be bi-annual? Why are ITC still banning things? Why is there so much dead-weight that used to be popular units?

 

8th could have been great, might still be

There is just a long way to go before everything is working correctly.

[D3L]

 

I wonder, how many members of the community share this sentiment

Terribly good question, on this site? a handful, elsewhere, exponentially more

 

With various predictable demographic breakdowns between players/collectors and longtimers/shorttimers aswell as geographical nu-world/old-world

 

any (sane) critique is viewed, particularly on here, as unwelcome, which is an inherently unhealthy environment

 

8th is objectively in a worse state than even 7th was, and the creep is just getting worse while the pushing sales of old stock (LRD)/warehouse clearance is accelerating

[Ishagu]

I don't think there are many people selling up and leaving. Those who do leave are very vocal in their displeasure. It's anecdotal.

 

GW's sales, tournament turn outs, local communities etc have all been boosted since 8th.

[D3L]

I don't think there are many people selling up and leaving. Those who do leave are very vocal in their displeasure. It's anecdotal.

 

GW's sales, tournament turn outs, local communities etc have all been boosted since 8th.

local communities have visibly shrunk, both in the UK and Asia, perhaps it's different where ever you are, however

[Ishagu]

What's your evidence for this?

Where are you getting the metric for local community sizes?

[battle captain corpus]

Primaris rules didn't need to be good to push sales, they're new Spez Mahreens. They'd sell if the rules were "meh". True scale marines were an insurance policy product, as are most Spez Mahreen products.

 

And I agree with the majority of what Brother Christopher is saying. The "feeling" I get about GW is they want to be your chummy best mate "come let us drink pints together and paint minis!" yet they then release a frankly (in my opinion) rude product like Chapter Approved. Its bad form at best and at worst it undermines the work they are trying to convey through their openness.

 

BCC

[D3L]

What's your evidence for this?

Where are you getting the metric for local community sizes?

same place you are, tournaments and visible weekend participation, of course I could be wrong, maybe there's a bunch of new guys coming down between the hours of 9-5 *shrug*

 

but since you asked, empirical records from the yearly grand tournament in HK 

 

2012 grand tournament 18 players

2013 grand tournament 22 players

2014 records offline (they were on hosted, but no longer maintained) excomunicate servitoris

2015 grand tournament 23 players

2016 grand tournament 16 players

2017 grand tournament 12 players 

 

so, a 50% drop now, all that 50% can't be attributed to just 8th, certainly the terrible business practices that have been implemented in HK by GW (changing from UK pricing to US pricing, which is insane) will have contributed a lot, but on the other hand GW opened two official stores (well re-entered the market), thus you'd have expected a visible uptake

 

not so

 

most of it, is people just not enjoying the hobby with the changes

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by D3L

[Damo1701]

I don't think there are many people selling up and leaving. Those who do leave are very vocal in their displeasure. It's anecdotal.

 

GW's sales, tournament turn outs, local communities etc have all been boosted since 8th.

And nothing in your example is anecdotal?

 

Even with finding a new gaming club, getting to play a game has been difficult at best, as most players are moving from 40k to other supported systems by the club.

 

I dont even have my regular opponent anymore, he sold up and left. Some of the other systems are looking rather promising at the moment. They may not be cheaper, but the support offered has been much more balanced.

 

Unless we have empirical data that GW would prefer remain confidential, anything we talk about will be anecdotal at best.

 

GW sales up? Surprise... new edition with massive costs released. Not to mention Newcromunda and whatever else has been released. Once the codex run is completed, sales will drop off once again.

 

You can't judge sales objectively during the release of a new edition, seeing as people will often spend more to attempt to join the new era of the game.

[Tamiel]

As an SM (Ultramarine) player:

• Drop pods still feel weak
• Landspeeders still feel weak
• Tactical marines are still meh aside from carrying a lascannon (bolters in particular feel like flashlights now)
• Many named characters feel meh at best or straight up bad (Cato Sicarius, for example, is not worth the points at all)
• Guilliman feels like I am kind of forced to take him (This isn't a good thing)
• Assault marines feel weak
• I have never seen a vindicator in 8th edition and see no reason to take one
• There seems to be no good answer to cheap hordes with morale-countering abilities
• As time goes on, C:SM feels more and more weak compared to newer releases (Guilliman (and Issadon) feel like the only thing holding the codex together)
• Smite is still too good and has not been changed at all
• Alpha strike is still a big problem in 8E, where the only solution is to play with a metric ton of line of sight blocking terrain

These are just some of the problems I had with 8E. I was not expecting CA to fix all of them, not even half of them, but at least some.

 

Overall I'm not too elated with CA. Better luck next year.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Tamiel

[Ishagu]

@Damo

 

How about the fact that GW sales are through the roof and the bigger tournaments are setting attendance records?

 

Your local meta might be in decline, mine has regular games every day and bi-weekly tournaments.

 

@Tamiel

 

The codex is indeed lacking in some areas, but Guilliman is by no means the only effective way to play. As missions become more objective and mobility focused his impact will be lessened. You need to adjust. Are you using Inceptors for example?

 

Also, were you expecting rule changes and new datasheets for existing units? They never promised this in truth.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Ishagu

[Kisada]

Bi-weekly is such a weird word ... definition says either something that happens every 2 weeks or twice a week ... that's a bit of a difference lol

 

As for the popularity of this edition ... nearly everyone I've run into in my local area are really enjoying 8th edition.  Some complaints for sure ... such as terrain/cover rules

[Damo1701]

@Damo

 

How about the fact that GW sales are through the roof and the bigger tournaments are setting attendance records?

 

Your local meta might be in decline, mine has regular games every day and bi-weekly tournaments.

 

So you agree?

 

Meta discussions will always be anecdotal?

 

Sales records for an expe dive new edition will always skew any theories on actual performance.

 

Average gamer:

 

Dark Imperium £95

Index £15

Codex £35

 

That's just for Space Marines, and bare basics of what a lot of Marine players bought, without things like cards, dice, objectives, and Primaris releases for band-wagon jumping.

 

Some people haven't touched Primaris and some have gone OTT in the hopes of something special.

 

Then you add in every released codex and either any special units released with or around them, and you still won't have an accurate picture. How many people were disappointed by their codex? How many lost more faith once their FAQ was released?