Get Ready For Chapter Approved

[Dragonlover]

On a different note, did I imagine that Chapter Approved was going to add the 'flyers don't count when checking to see if tabled' rule? Cause I couldn't find it anywhere.

 

Dragonlover

[Schlitzaf]

Nothing my Vostroyan give me cannot be functionally achieved by taking Marine Units. My heavy teams and infantry squads become 2 Devies with Double Lascannons. I take 2 Bolter Ceptors and a Castallen on Foot. And then take an Assault Terminator Squad.

 

What I lose are Ponies, Plasma Scions replace by Bolter Ceptors and Assault Terminators. Or instead of Assault Terms, I take two more Intercessors for a Battlelion. I don’t functionally lose much in the way of anything by having my Vostroyans over more Templars.

 

Also yes if you make it so the moment you include any unit in your army you immidiately lose Tactics. You can bet that people are not even bother trying to stay somewhat pure.

 

I’d drop NonCommand Scions throw my 2nd Intercessors into my Vostroyans take double Heavy Teams. That is just basic example. In my casual lists. More competitive? Your gonna Tacticals vanish again. Replaced by dirt cheap infantry squads with Lascannons. Every 2 Tacticals with Lascannons give you three Gaurd Squads with Lascannons. (1.5 vs 1.32 hit chance if curious).

 

The current detachment system exists to enable allies in an easy flavorful manner and requiring significant investment via Points to not lose tactics and otherwise.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not really. You can add things like supreme command with three primaris psykers.

 

Or a vanguard of 1 Inquisitor and three accolytes.

 

Or anything guard related.

 

There's loads of ways to get cheap detachments without breaking your chapter tactics.

 

Edit. All the current detachment system does is allow you to easily cherry pick the best units from multiple different armies.

 

Running marines? Take the best from the gk dex with a supreme command of draigo/voldus/gmndk to taste.

 

And drop bobby g on his own for a bonus 3cp.

 

Some might go so far as to claim a a supreme command with 3 GMNDK is heretical rather than fluffy...

Edited December 14, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Toxichobbit]

On a different note, did I imagine that Chapter Approved was going to add the 'flyers don't count when checking to see if tabled' rule? Cause I couldn't find it anywhere.

 

Dragonlover

 

p67, Boots on the Ground rule.

 

On a related note, I'm sure GW said that they'd be making the +1 to first turns for finishing setting up first (as opposed to automatically getting first turn if you finish setting up first) in Chapter Approved, but unless I'm missing something they instead added missions that used that rule but didn't modify the missions in the rulebook. Am I wrong? I hope I'm wrong.

[Gentlemanloser]

That +1 was only ever going to be fire the new missions and not the original brb ones. I remember GW saying that.

[Schlitzaf]

And that is 135 worth of points for an average of 15 wounds over the course of a game. 10 Bolter Bros do 1 wound and then 2 wounds every turn thereafter. So 9 wounds but also benefits from army synergy. And can engage in close combat among other things.

 

Also what is the issue with lists taking 3 Primaris Pyskers? I mean you can scream about balance ones. But they have to be in 18” range to hit a target and cannot choose their preferred target. And furthermore some armies like Nids and GK shut down physic shannigans.

 

Also take an Inquistor and 3 Acolytes tell me how useful that is gonna be. The Gaurd is an issue but that is not something innately wrong with the detachment system. The whole game is setup in such a way to force armies into taking detachments. Or enable allying but without providing points restriction.

 

If you don’t like allying that is fine. But removing tactics by including any allies defeats the detachment system. If they wanted to force a troop tax they could have done what Sigmar did. If you made it so armies that have Keyword not on warlord data cannot get tactics that would be a better mechanical solution

[Gentlemanloser]

Inq. 3 accos. In a rhino/razor/raven.

 

Now lets you reserve 4 units.

 

Its very useful. Sorry you can't see that.

 

 

Still you've missed the point.

 

You said detachments take heafty points. No they don't.

 

You said they're fluffy. No they're not. They encourage non fluffy cherry picking.

 

Edit. Take 6. Take 9 primaris psykers.

 

Watch how you abuse the character targetting rules to make them unattackable.

 

Maybe even stick a culexes or two in there.

 

And spamming mortal wounds. You vastly underestimate how powerful that is...

Edited December 14, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[chapter master 454]

Can I ask what was expected at this point? The discussion seems to of veered from discussing an issue of not fixing points to now expecting large sweeping changes.

 

The main issue with that discussion is that expecting large changes to EVERYONE then means you can't see what worked and what didn't as now everyone is finding out what works for them. What needs to happen is changes to a selection of armies, 2-3 at most. Otherwise we will be complaining about different armies the same we are now for various factions.

 

Yes there are things that could be improved however I ask which edition had nothing wrong and what mechanics have never been in someway "Wonky".

 

The formations concept from 7th is an awesome idea. Make you take units you may not normally take and give the units unique strength and identity. The issue: We are competitive players and seek the "best" formations. Sadly this did require more balance testing however it is a cool idea.

 

Detachments are a neat idea and to be honest a good revision to unit type grouping. While sadly lacking in depth and could do with more unique variants with a mix of different types (things like 2 heavy + 1 fast = artillery and spotters detachment that comes with it's own unique stratagem).

 

This is the first chapter approved and should be expected to not be the perfect answer. Nothing ever will. So lets just write this off as a 'rough start' and could be better but everything could be better.

 

Not sure but it does feel like this thread is going circles now...not really getting anywhere but don't let me stop yous.

[Schlitzaf]

Inq. 3 accos. In a rhino/razor/raven.

 

Now lets you reserve 4 units.

 

Its very useful. Sorry you can't see that.

 

 

Still you've missed the point.

 

You said detachments take heafty points. No they don't.

 

You said they're fluffy. No they're not. They encourage non fluffy cherry picking.

 

Edit. Take 6. Take 9 primaris psykers.

 

Watch how you abuse the character targetting rules to make them unattackable.

 

Maybe even stick a culexes or two in there.

 

And spamming mortal wounds. You vastly underestimate how powerful that is...

Or you know just take the Units in reserve and still buy those dedicated. That is massive waste of 83 Points for a single command point. I’d rather take an assassin.

 

So 270 Points. Gulliman 670. Astropath 700. You now have 8 models. I hope you have some other way for staying power. And have sometning else to transport those pyskers.

 

Also woot you eat a 5 Man Tactical Squad a turn for 300 Points or more specifically 5 chaff models? Hurray. Smite Spam is only strong if you are unprepared for it. Being in 18 and only have 5++ and 4 wounds, means my a Marines return fire will murder those guys.

 

Of course you have gaurd in front. And well Gulliman. I am not undervaluing smite, I just see it for what it is. A glass cannon to murder super tanky Units.

[Gentlemanloser]

Play GK.

 

You want to ds all your guys. Getting and extra 4 in reserves is well worth the 85 points. More if you take more accos.

 

The extra 1 cp is just gravy.

 

Your marine return fire does nothing. You can't shoot *any* of the primaris psykers.

 

Characters you know.

 

I think you need to play with these options in game before continuing to comment. You seem to misunderstand how they actually work.

 

 

And you're still not refuting the two points about detachments being expensive. They're not. Or fluffy. They're not.

 

Please try to answer those points.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Schlitzaf]

Removing post so I can respond when fully Edited December 15, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Schlitzaf]

Gentle, the rule for characters just got changed but secondly;

A competitive list is....competitive? Like hurray? You gonna say Assback + Gulliman is also OP? Because a competitive list is competitive for a reason. However a supreme command detachment of just Primaris Pyskers without proper screens by their lonesomesks not scary. Because turns out T3, 5++ Sv models is exceptionally squishy.

 

If it wasn’t you’d Orks and their Weirdboyz, running around everywhere. At only 60 Points, and better toughness, and easier access to super smite. But you don’t sense they don’t have the proper screens to protect themselves from flankers. While maintaining forward momentum. Secondly, the cheapest detachments armies can take that can grant command Points beside supreme command is gonna in the 200-300 point range.

 

At is 10-15% of your army. If you think that is insignificant number, go play 2000 Point game and play 250 Points short. And ask yourself what those 250 Points could buy you. In Grey Knights that is 10 Strikes and twoish Heavies.

 

In Marines that is 2.5 5 Man MSU Double Special Tacticals Or A 6 Man Terminator Squad Or Double Assbacks or most Chapter Masters + most of an Auxillary Character.

Gaurd that is 3 Heavy Teams with Triple Lascannon or 3 Infantry Squads w/Lascannons and Double Company, 1-2 Leman Russ, 1 Russ and 3 Mortar Heavies

Sisters that is Celestine, or 3 5 Man Battle Sisters with Triple Storm and Double Cannoness Or 2 Excorcists

That is 2 20ish Man Boyz Squad for Orks or Warboss + Pain Boyz and Speciality Unit Or Two Speciality Units

That is Necron Overlord and 1 Ten Man Immortal, or 4isn Destroyers Or 3 Heavy Destroyers Or 20 Necron Warriors

A Daemon Prince and 10 Lesser Daemons or One heralds and 30 lesser Daemons. Or 3 Obliterators And 1 Auxillary Character Or 5 Chaos Marines Or 1 Greater Demon (Except Tzeentck)

Eldar that is 3 Gaurdian Squads, or 3 Avengers and 1 60ish Point Character, or 6 Wraithgaurd Or 1 Avater of Kaine or 1 Phoenix Lord and with a squad of aspects

Tyranids that is Hive + 30 Gaunts, or a Tervigon, or 24 Genestealers, or a Unit if Venomthropes and 30 Gaunts, or 3.5 Carnifexes, or 2 Mawlocks, or 1 Trygon + 16 Gaunts,

 

I could go on, but almost all those combinations of units I listed are considered significant point investments and require a list to be built around to use effectively. Gaurd and SOB stand out as being only lists who can make a Battlelion. But a frame of reference Ravens and LRC are in the 300ish and considered significant investment. I could throw another 50 Points in those above lists but the point remains.

 

250-300 Points is 10-15% of your list and a significant investment that requires building around. Supreme Command however is in the 100-200 range but you lose bodies and thus staying power.

[Gentlemanloser]

You still miss the point.

 

And i think you mean brigade not battalion.

 

GK can easy make a battalion from 2 GM and 3 five man strike squads.

 

Detachments are not (bar the impossible for some armies brigade) expensive.

 

Inq plus three assassins. Cheap as chips and very effective.

 

Tempestor Prime with aquilla. Cheap effective way for armies that GW deemed don't require any way to regain cp, a very cheap way to gain regain cp.

 

Not fluffy in the slightest.

 

Nor is a detwchmrnt of 5 GMNDK. very potent. Cost effective due to how good the unit is. Retains BoP.

 

Totally unfluffy.

 

Detachments are not expensive and do not gravitate to fluffy over cherry picking the best.

 

Also Patrols can be made *very* cheaply. For 1cp. No where near the 200/300 points you claim.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Schlitzaf]

.....

Those three Assassins are 240-270 Points + 55 point Inquistor or 320 Total Points. Every unit combination listed above is 250-270 Points. It is meant to showcase what spending those “200-300” Points on allies causes you to give up.

 

Secondly if you consider 250 Points cheap play your next 2000 Points as 1750. You’ll realize that being down 12.5% of Points is quite significant

 

Patrols don’t give Command Points. I said “CP Granting Detachment beside Supreme Command” will average 200-300

Edited December 16, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Gentlemanloser]

Swap patrol for vanguard/outrider/spearhead.

 

We've anyway spoken about the potency of an 80 point vanguard that also grants 1cp.

 

Plus three culexes assassins are very powerful. Have you ever run them, or faced them?

 

And still for like the 5th time you studiously avoid addressing the original two points.

 

Detachments are not expensive.

 

Detachments are not inherently fluffy.

 

By now it would just be best if you agreed with both of these...

Edited December 16, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Brother Casman]

Alright folks, I think it’s probably time you took this particular disagreement to PMs.

[Mileposter]

Necro Warning!

 

It was argued early on in this thread, and in other places, about the whole "Chapter Approved means I'm going to carry more books" and "Need a digital living points set". I hadn't seen it mentioned here or in those places - and it was just shown to me today, so I thought I'd pass it along to those who have this concern.

 

The Enhanced Edition of the digital Indices and Codices update their points costs with Chapter Approved and FAQ values.

 

Suppose this is in line with the folks who were asking for a digital library?

[Ciler]

Excellent news !

[Shockmaster]

I am still a bit of a technophobe but news like this does tempt me towards the digital products long term.

[chapter master 454]

Necro Warning!

 

It was argued early on in this thread, and in other places, about the whole "Chapter Approved means I'm going to carry more books" and "Need a digital living points set". I hadn't seen it mentioned here or in those places - and it was just shown to me today, so I thought I'd pass it along to those who have this concern.

 

The Enhanced Edition of the digital Indices and Codices update their points costs with Chapter Approved and FAQ values.

 

Suppose this is in line with the folks who were asking for a digital library?

 

only the enhanced editions? Seems like a little bit of a nickle and dime tactic there.

[Mileposter]

 

Necro Warning!

 

It was argued early on in this thread, and in other places, about the whole "Chapter Approved means I'm going to carry more books" and "Need a digital living points set". I hadn't seen it mentioned here or in those places - and it was just shown to me today, so I thought I'd pass it along to those who have this concern.

 

The Enhanced Edition of the digital Indices and Codices update their points costs with Chapter Approved and FAQ values.

 

Suppose this is in line with the folks who were asking for a digital library?

 

only the enhanced editions? Seems like a little bit of a nickle and dime tactic there.

 

Technical limitation, there. The epub is just a digital copy of the pooks, like having a pdf - not really a decent way to go updating those because they aren't raw files. It'd be roughly the same amount of effort as reprinting book information (though obviously with less logistics after that fact). The Enhanced Editions are actual interactives, with a completely different setup and system. I didn't realize that either until I was able to hold one in my hand.

[The Yncarne]

hmmm. Were there no updates to the CSM  Hereticus Astartes Codex? I have no updates since the publish date of August 5.

[Lexington]

Technical limitation, there. The epub is just a digital copy of the pooks, like having a pdf - not really a decent way to go updating those because they aren't raw files.

 

ePubs are more or less just zipped-up set of assets and an HTML file, like a little webpage - I edit my own ePub Codexes to take out background and other non-gaming elements for easier use on my ancient iPad. It'd be an incredibly easy edit for them to make.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Lexington