Ascanius Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 This happens enough across the Horus Heresy series, at least, that I almost suspect it's a deliberate stylistic thing in Black Library's house style! The thing I'm talking about is when a sentence uses a verb and then the noun form of that verb, or vice-versa. Two examples from The Master of Mankind are "sealed away by seals" and "evidence ... was evident". (Apologies to AD-B - you're such a fine writer that I skipped ahead and read this book way before I got to it in the course of my audiobook journey through the Heresy, but I listened to these scenes while getting ready this morning so they're fresh.) I don't know if anyone else finds it a bit jarring? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpAcEGhOsT095 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 So long as a sentence makes sense, I just roll with it. It could just be a British thing. If the seals were seals I don't see how they could make whatever was sealed away, stay sealed away. Seals have to sleep and eat you know. Team Six might be able to pull it off or if it's a different kind of seal, then they probably just sing to whatever they are watching. Language can be fun, and confusing sometimes. TheEyeOfNight, mc warhammer and Xisor 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4942282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 This happens enough across the Horus Heresy series, at least, that I almost suspect it's a deliberate stylistic thing in Black Library's house style! The thing I'm talking about is when a sentence uses a verb and then the noun form of that verb, or vice-versa. Two examples from The Master of Mankind are "sealed away by seals" and "evidence ... was evident". (Apologies to AD-B - you're such a fine writer that I skipped ahead and read this book way before I got to it in the course of my audiobook journey through the Heresy, but I listened to these scenes while getting ready this morning so they're fresh.) I don't know if anyone else finds it a bit jarring? not enough to ruin my enjoyment and it’s still perfectly correct. i think the attempts not to do so are more of a modern style choice than anything else Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4942283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warpmiss Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 I can't remember encountering this often in BL books but when I do it's definitely something that makes me go: 'really? did you just really do that?'. I remember that in my Spanish/English clases during school/high-school that kind of writing would have subtracted quite a few points from my marks. If it were just fanfiction on the Internet I wouldn't care but I expect better from a published author. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4942430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted November 27, 2017 Author Share Posted November 27, 2017 There's one in Garro I heard today that's something like "His reflection was reflected in his blade" - and I wonder why you'd write that rather than "His reflection showed on his blade" or "His face was reflected in his blade", you know? Brother Lunkhead and Urauloth 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4942565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warpmiss Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 I haven't read the Garro ones yet but if it's true, there are so many ways that sentence can be written that I'm surprised it is in the final product. That looks like something the author should have seen while re-reading their draft before sending it to their editor. If not, then said editor should have found that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4942585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 (edited) This happens enough across the Horus Heresy series, at least, that I almost suspect it's a deliberate stylistic thing in Black Library's house style! The thing I'm talking about is when a sentence uses a verb and then the noun form of that verb, or vice-versa. Two examples from The Master of Mankind are "sealed away by seals" and "evidence ... was evident". (Apologies to AD-B - you're such a fine writer that I skipped ahead and read this book way before I got to it in the course of my audiobook journey through the Heresy, but I listened to these scenes while getting ready this morning so they're fresh.) I don't know if anyone else finds it a bit jarring? I think "sealed away behind seals and sanctions forever" is a pretty cool sentence. It's very blunt and jarring, but it's one of those "That's the point with this bit" sections. If I said that aloud, I'd hate it (and you mentioned you were listening to it, so I assume it's an audiobook) but it's the kind of sentence Lovecraft and Poe would've written when they're doing their jarring-description-moments, and I like that voice for those kinds of scenes. A good audiobook is great, but it's still just someone random reading it to you - a middleman/woman between the author's voice and yours. What might sound natural in your head or smooth to the author has another step to get past when it's read out by a third party. That's not to excuse clumsy writing, either missed by the author or editors, but a novel is like 100,000 words long. You can bet there's going to be some awkward lines in any of them. I've read enough Gemmell, Feist, and Cornwell to cite half a dozen for each of them by heart, and they're all masters of the craft. Edited November 27, 2017 by A D-B Phoebus, RobMac, veterannoob and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4942618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Appreciate alliterative authors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4942631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warpmiss Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 (edited) Absolutely agree that some sentences can seem more jarring than others. In the case of the seals one it does actually seem kinda cool. Reading it out-loud though, yep it sounds weird. The reflection one is way worse, imo. Although you are right, context may make some of these sentences better, alliteration is a thing, after all. (Also, A D-B, you are one of my favorite BL authors, keep up the good work!) Edited November 27, 2017 by Warpmiss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4942755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 I'd be willing to bet that many, if not most, of the instances we're talking about are the result of a sentence being edited multiple times - words being changed or moved around - before sneaking past an editor. James Swallow gets a LOT of stick on these forums, but I'm pretty sure he didn't write that one thinking it sounded good. Warpmiss and DarkChaplain 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4942835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 (edited) "There was still power there, power that would empower Lucius" still hurts me. Edited November 27, 2017 by bluntblade Warpmiss, Urauloth and D3L 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4943011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roomsky Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 I think its a perfectly valid literary device, though its easy to fumble. It seems to work best with beige prose, so Thorpe on a good day could probably make it work. A lot of BL work tends to lean towards the florid, though, so it should probably be avoided. Most cited examples seem to be incidental rather than intentional, so yeah, it sucks. I'm still mad about Mt. Deathfire being "fiery" Phoebus and mc warhammer 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4943446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted December 3, 2017 Author Share Posted December 3, 2017 I definitely think it's more noticeable, just like "swayed aside", because I'm listening to the audiobooks. As I've mentioned before, I read much faster than actors can speak, so I might gloss over a repeated word in text that I definitely notice when I hear the same word or syllable twice in a few seconds. You also make a good point about it being a deliberate formula in some cases, AD-B. There is, I suppose, a flavour of religious ritual about that sort of thing, appropriate for a phrase like "sealed away behind seals and sanctions forever." Editing is a hard job, I reckon. I'd say it's impressive that I've only noticed one internal contradiction in all of the Heresy stories I've read or listened to - that being an Iron Warrior who definitely dies facing the Hrud in Perturabo but is then alive again when they sack Olympia. Not bad for more than a decade's work! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4949330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant of Dante Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 The fact that it’s “seals and sanctions forever” and alliterative makes me agree that one sounds cool, but “reflection was reflected” just feels strange and redundant to me :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4951404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuvassin Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 Quite frankly, I think it's pretty much just par for the course with most genre fiction, especially that of the licensed property type of fiction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4954250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 It's tricky to pull off...most instances are clunky IMO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4954342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3L Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) it just boils down to needing more sub-editors, that's exactly the type of poor sentence that's supposed to be caught earlyit happens, people have off moments, but a general editor generally while watchfully watching and editing edits should have edited it Edited December 11, 2017 by D3L Xisor 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4956828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 This. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-4956855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 "The deathblow had cut head from neck in one decisive blow." Why, Nick Kyme, why? :p Roomsky 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-5007736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMac Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Procrastinating from editing is a terrible thing - I just search all my novels for "swayed aside" and didn't find a single instance, proud I do however seem to use "for a moment" or "in a moment" a great deal. It'll be editorially purged from here on in. Warpmiss, mc warhammer and Felix Antipodes 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-5007998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 I don't want to give anyone a complex! There's just something about the repetition of the same word in such close proximity that jars, especially in audio. Warpmiss 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-5008264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 I definitely share that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341498-the-corollary-to-swayed-aside/#findComment-5008334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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