The corollary to "swayed aside"

[Ascanius]

This happens enough across the Horus Heresy series, at least, that I almost suspect it's a deliberate stylistic thing in Black Library's house style!

 

The thing I'm talking about is when a sentence uses a verb and then the noun form of that verb, or vice-versa. Two examples from The Master of Mankind are "sealed away by seals" and "evidence ... was evident".

 

(Apologies to AD-B - you're such a fine writer that I skipped ahead and read this book way before I got to it in the course of my audiobook journey through the Heresy, but I listened to these scenes while getting ready this morning so they're fresh.)

 

I don't know if anyone else finds it a bit jarring?

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

So long as a sentence makes sense, I just roll with it.

It could just be a British thing.

If the seals were seals I don't see how they could make whatever was sealed away, stay sealed away. Seals have to sleep and eat you know. Team Six might be able to pull it off or if it's a different kind of seal, then they probably just sing to whatever they are watching.

Language can be fun, and confusing sometimes.

[mc warhammer]

This happens enough across the Horus Heresy series, at least, that I almost suspect it's a deliberate stylistic thing in Black Library's house style!

 

The thing I'm talking about is when a sentence uses a verb and then the noun form of that verb, or vice-versa. Two examples from The Master of Mankind are "sealed away by seals" and "evidence ... was evident".

 

(Apologies to AD-B - you're such a fine writer that I skipped ahead and read this book way before I got to it in the course of my audiobook journey through the Heresy, but I listened to these scenes while getting ready this morning so they're fresh.)

 

I don't know if anyone else finds it a bit jarring?

not enough to ruin my enjoyment

 

and it’s still perfectly correct. i think the attempts not to do so are more of a modern style choice than anything else

[Warpmiss]

I can't remember encountering this often in BL books but when I do it's definitely something that makes me go: 'really? did you just really do that?'.

 

I remember that in my Spanish/English clases during school/high-school that kind of writing would have subtracted quite a few points from my marks. If it were just fanfiction on the Internet I wouldn't care but I expect better from a published author.

[Ascanius]

There's one in Garro I heard today that's something like "His reflection was reflected in his blade" - and I wonder why you'd write that rather than "His reflection showed on his blade" or "His face was reflected in his blade", you know?

[Warpmiss]

I haven't read the Garro ones yet but if it's true, there are so many ways that sentence can be written that I'm surprised it is in the final product. That looks like something the author should have seen while re-reading their draft before sending it to their editor. If not, then said editor should have found that.

[A D-B]

This happens enough across the Horus Heresy series, at least, that I almost suspect it's a deliberate stylistic thing in Black Library's house style!

 

The thing I'm talking about is when a sentence uses a verb and then the noun form of that verb, or vice-versa. Two examples from The Master of Mankind are "sealed away by seals" and "evidence ... was evident".

 

(Apologies to AD-B - you're such a fine writer that I skipped ahead and read this book way before I got to it in the course of my audiobook journey through the Heresy, but I listened to these scenes while getting ready this morning so they're fresh.)

 

I don't know if anyone else finds it a bit jarring?

 

I think "sealed away behind seals and sanctions forever" is a pretty cool sentence. It's very blunt and jarring, but it's one of those "That's the point with this bit" sections. If I said that aloud, I'd hate it (and you mentioned you were listening to it, so I assume it's an audiobook) but it's the kind of sentence Lovecraft and Poe would've written when they're doing their jarring-description-moments, and I like that voice for those kinds of scenes. A good audiobook is great, but it's still just someone random reading it to you - a middleman/woman between the author's voice and yours. What might sound natural in your head or smooth to the author has another step to get past when it's read out by a third party.

 

That's not to excuse clumsy writing, either missed by the author or editors, but a novel is like 100,000 words long. You can bet there's going to be some awkward lines in any of them. I've read enough Gemmell, Feist, and Cornwell to cite half a dozen for each of them by heart, and they're all masters of the craft.

Edited November 27, 2017 by A D-B

[Marshal Rohr]

Appreciate alliterative authors.

[Warpmiss]

Absolutely agree that some sentences can seem more jarring than others. In the case of the seals one it does actually seem kinda cool. Reading it out-loud though, yep it sounds weird. The reflection one is way worse, imo. Although you are right, context may make some of these sentences better, alliteration is a thing, after all.  

 

(Also, A D-B, you are one of my favorite BL authors, keep up the good work!)

Edited November 27, 2017 by Warpmiss

[Phoebus]

I'd be willing to bet that many, if not most, of the instances we're talking about are the result of a sentence being edited multiple times - words being changed or moved around - before sneaking past an editor. James Swallow gets a LOT of stick on these forums, but I'm pretty sure he didn't write that one thinking it sounded good.

[bluntblade]

"There was still power there, power that would empower Lucius" still hurts me. Edited November 27, 2017 by bluntblade

[Roomsky]

I think its a perfectly valid literary device, though its easy to fumble. It seems to work best with beige prose, so Thorpe on a good day could probably make it work. A lot of BL work tends to lean towards the florid, though, so it should probably be avoided. Most cited examples seem to be incidental rather than intentional, so yeah, it sucks.

 

I'm still mad about Mt. Deathfire being "fiery"

[Ascanius]

I definitely think it's more noticeable, just like "swayed aside", because I'm listening to the audiobooks. As I've mentioned before, I read much faster than actors can speak, so I might gloss over a repeated word in text that I definitely notice when I hear the same word or syllable twice in a few seconds.

 

You also make a good point about it being a deliberate formula in some cases, AD-B. There is, I suppose, a flavour of religious ritual about that sort of thing, appropriate for a phrase like "sealed away behind seals and sanctions forever."

 

Editing is a hard job, I reckon. I'd say it's impressive that I've only noticed one internal contradiction in all of the Heresy stories I've read or listened to - that being an Iron Warrior who definitely dies facing the Hrud in Perturabo but is then alive again when they sack Olympia. Not bad for more than a decade's work!

[Servant of Dante]

The fact that it’s “seals and sanctions forever” and alliterative makes me agree that one sounds cool, but “reflection was reflected” just feels strange and redundant to me :P

[Zuvassin]

Quite frankly, I think it's pretty much just par for the course with most genre fiction, especially that of the licensed property type of fiction.

[b1soul]

It's tricky to pull off...most instances are clunky IMO

[D3L]

it just boils down to needing more sub-editors, that's exactly the type of poor sentence that's supposed to be caught early

it happens, people have off moments, but a general editor generally while watchfully watching and editing edits should have edited it

Edited December 11, 2017 by D3L

[bluntblade]

This.

[Ascanius]

"The deathblow had cut head from neck in one decisive blow."

 

Why, Nick Kyme, why? :p

[RobMac]

Procrastinating from editing is a terrible thing - I just search all my novels for "swayed aside" and didn't find a single instance, proud 

 

I do however seem to use "for a moment" or "in a moment" a great deal. It'll be editorially purged from here on in.

[Ascanius]

I don't want to give anyone a complex! There's just something about the repetition of the same word in such close proximity that jars, especially in audio.

[bluntblade]

I definitely share that