The Devastation of Baal- Discussion

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Curse isn't solved though. Sure, it initially doesn't surface in the new Primaris, but we've seen that before in Chapters like the Lamenters, and the BA Codex definitely shows the Primaris are suffering the Red Thirst, they have just yet to have any fall to the Black Rage.

[b1soul]

I think BA codex is vague regarding whether the hyper-violent BA Primaris (reported by Corbulo to Dante) are afflicted by the Red Thirst, the Black Rage, or both.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, they don't have the Black Rage, as that's signified by hallucinating being at the Siege of Terra, or being Sanguinius himself. They definitely seemed to have a certain thirst for a red liquid, though.

[b1soul]

Which part of the Codex are you referring to?

[DarkChaplain]

I just still don't understand that people get up in arms over the terraforming suggestion in the book. We all should have been perfectly aware that this was always a thing the Imperium did, at least during the Great Crusade. Not only was the Emperor working towards restoring Terra's ecosystem, up until the Heresy, but whole planets were remodeled, like Ullanor. We've seen this. Nevermind what they did on Caliban, albeit more towards industrialization.

 

The Imperium had the tools. They're not widely accessible now, and depending on the planet, they may be less viable (which would be the case for Baal, or Terra for that matter), and it would probably take centuries to properly pull off to any real degree, and millennia to stabilize long-term, but the tools still exist in the Mechanicus' databanks and all that, at least for the most part.

 

It is also silly to put Sanguinius or Dante not doing it off as somehow coldhearted and against their character - it isn't. The Dante novel should have shown already how deeply ingrained Baalite culture is in every single Blood Angel, and abandoning that isn't to be taken lightly. The Chapters are all beasts of tradition, and few more so than the Blood Angels. And that isn't even touching on the whole trials-for-potential-recruits business, wanting "strong" populations and such.

Nevermind that the resources are sparse to begin with. The Blood Angels got almost wiped out before, when Dante was still climbing the ranks. They've been fighting against the Tyranids and Necrons for years if not decades by the time of the Siege of Baal. They've been called to defend Armageddon. There was another assault on Baal, too. Nevermind the Black Crusades.

Dante was pretty busy just keeping the Chapter afloat with steady recruitment and their supplies weren't infinite either.

 

But most importantly, Guilliman bringing it up is simply a way to point out how ridiculous things are in the Imperium, especially nowadays, where improving living conditions for the regular people of the Imperium isn't even something most would consider, because they're constantly occupied with the war effort on whichever front. The Imperium is a monolithic mess, shortsighted, with human resources being more expendable than technology, bureaucrats holding the reigns left and right and breaking supply chains even for a brief moment can spell starvation for entire systems.

Dante's reaction to Guilliman pointing it out was one of surprise, not at having the tools available, but about the thought never even having crossed his mind, at least not seriously. It simply never was a priority for myriad reasons.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Which part of the Codex are you referring to?

 

Oh, my bad, I misremembered. It was just extreme violence that they unleash, but the fact remains that if Corbulo is disquiet about what happened, given he was tagging along hoping that they'd prove useful for his research into the Flaw, then their behaviour is probably related to it in some way. Otherwise, why would he care?

[Blindhamster]

 

 

 

Sorry for slight necro - which Blood Angel stories do you need to read beforehand to get the most from this? Shield of Baal? Dante? None?

 

I would say Shield of Baal and Dante, but it is not a must. The book is perfectly readable without it.

 

I think that Dante is a better novel, more suited to Haley's strengths as a writer, though. I found The Devastation of Baal to be somewhat disappointing. And ending to be severely disappointing, to the point that I think the novel would have been severely improved if it was cut out entirely.

 

 

So where would you have the story finish?

I mean, it finishes showing the aftermath of the invasion. It wouldn't have been satisfying to end it just as the Tyranids are destroyed. It has to show some sort of situation after the invasion, and the arrival of Guilliman is a fairly important plot point, so that's got to be there too. I can understand not liking Guilliman, but the fact remains that he's an important part of the event being told.

 

 

I think it would have been more interesting to leave the aftermath ambiguous. I would have expanded the vision of Sanguinius at the end of the book, and leave it at that, especially since it is pretty obvious that a sequel will be in works. Yes, I am aware that the presence of Guilliman was required since he already showed up in the rulebooks, but still.

 

And I like Guilliman. However, I like Horus Heresy Guilliman, not the one we got.

 

And even then, I think it should have been handled better. The entire ending has this... annoying feeling for me. I have been Blood Angels fan since my earliest days as a 40k fan. They are my favourites amongst the loyalists. So yes. It grates on me that a vision of Sanguinius is immediately one-upped by Guilliman. It grates on me that the Flaw Blood Angels struggled all their existence and Sanguinius could not find solution to is seemingly solved by Cawl, off-screen. It annoys me that Roboute says it was totally possible to terraform Baal and make it great place to live, Sanguinius and every Blood Angel chapter master since him just didn't do it for some reason, even though it would be completely in character for Dante, and even though Sanguinius had the helping of Mankind as one of his stated goals since Index Astartes.

 

The story really seems to be making questionable turns to shill Roboute at the cost of Blood Angels. And I don't like it.

 

Sanguinius actually is supposed to have terraformed a lot of baal again, but then it was re destroyed by the traitors during the heresy whilst the blood angels went to terra. I'm pretty sure its an event that was outlined as being covered in the black book that is due when they were showing early timelines for things.

 

And the red thirst is absolutely there for primaris blood angels - thats the flaw btw.

The black rage may or may not be, currently it isnt but the blood angel community posts implied it may reappear in the future - this is the curse.

[Jareddm]

Given that Primaris Space Wolves are still susceptible to the Wulfen, I'm leaning towards Primaris Blood Angels still bring susceptible as well.

[MrDarth151]

Well, they don't have the Black Rage, as that's signified by hallucinating being at the Siege of Terra, or being Sanguinius himself. They definitely seemed to have a certain thirst for a red liquid, though.

 

Not according to the book, and the book is supposed to stand on its own.

 

The fact that parts of the ending were retconned by a codex published month later does not exactly speak in favour of the ending, you know?

[TheRealMcCagh]

It's not a retcon. It's a character making a statement that turns out to be incorrect. And he even says something like 'most had no idea what we were talking about.' Implying that some did. Retcon must be the single most misused word in 40k (that or mary sue). It would be like saying Seth says Guilliman will make them all Ultramarines in red armor, and then he doesn't, and we start screaming retcon. Because Seth said it, it's gospel.

 

And Dante not fixing Baal is perfectly in character. At the end Guilliman mentions they will repair the flagship (Blade of Vengeance I think) and Dante mentions how astronomical the cost will be. Guilliman replies he is Lord Commander and will do whatever he damn well pleases with his resources. If Dante was ready to send a spaceship to the scrap heap due to lack of resources, why the hell would he terraform an entire planet? Doing things the way they do because that is how they have always done it pretty much sums up like 99% of the Astartes procedures. There isn't a whole lot of room for innovation. Especially when Dante has just barely managed to keep the Chapter combat effective. He doesn't have time to recall everyone to fix their garden, the entire galaxy is at war and Dante is selfish enough to put it at jeopardy to deal BA business.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Well, they don't have the Black Rage, as that's signified by hallucinating being at the Siege of Terra, or being Sanguinius himself. They definitely seemed to have a certain thirst for a red liquid, though.

 

Not according to the book, and the book is supposed to stand on its own.

 

The fact that parts of the ending were retconned by a codex published month later does not exactly speak in favour of the ending, you know?

 

 

... They literally see the Primaris for what, a handful of days before the novel ends, and not once in battle? The Black Rage only occurs on the eve of a battle, so that's ruled out from happening, and the Red Thirst has always been described as a gradual fall. What were you expecting, the Primaris Blood Angels to turn up, and half of them are ravening, blood-thirsty monsters?

 

All that happened is the Blood Angels got an initial impression from the Primaris that turned out to be incorrect. Occasionally, subjecting things to scrutiny for more than an hour or so proves that the first impression was actually incorrect. Not sure why you're so upset that such a horrible thing could occur. The Codex extends the timeline out for 200 years or so after the novel ends. That's plenty of time for plot development to occur.

You assuming the in-universe initial, hasty assessments of two characters to be set-in-stone canonical truth is an issue on you, not the novel.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Nice to see a serious discussion about my favorite Legion

[b1soul]

I think Corbulo and his buddies believe that BA Primaris are Flaw-free after observing them for several years from the start of the Indomitus Crusade. It's not based on merely a few hours of observation.

 

At first, it seems the Primaris are indeed Flaw-free, but then incidents occur

[mc warhammer]

the flaw is genetic and the curse is more...uh...psychic, right? so even if the primaris are subject to the flaw, the curse wouldn't be passed down to their bloodline?

 

does this mean that IF primaris have 100%  fully functioning organs?

[Lord_Caerolion]

I think Corbulo and his buddies believe that BA Primaris are Flaw-free after observing them for several years from the start of the Indomitus Crusade. It's not based on merely a few hours of observation.

 

At first, it seems the Primaris are indeed Flaw-free, but then incidents occur

 

In the novel it is, though, which is the point MrDarth151 is raising. The novel has the Primaris present for days at best, so any claims that the novel shows that the Primaris had been 100% cured are ridiculous.

 

As for the Imperial Fists, I had thought that even the Heresy-era Fists had lacked those organs, making it more seem that it's an inherent trait within Dornian geneseed, rather than any subsequent deviation, given that it's a trait shared amongst all Successor Chapters. As such, I'd imagine the Primaris Marines created with Dornian geneseed would show the same traits.

In regards to the Blood Angels geneseed, namely the Curse/Flaw, I would argue that they're both psychic, although the Thirst was always present in some way or another, and seems to contain some amount of a genetic cause, given the attempts to "breed it out" with the Lamenters. The fact that the Red Thirst increased in severity after the predations of Ang'Grath show there's at least partly a Warp-based component to it, while the Black Rage seems to affect all Astartes implanted with Sanguinian geneseed.

[mc warhammer]

ah ok, from watson's space marine it was implied they had lost the use of those organs over time...and i was under the impression that any legion that had a primarch during the great crusade more or less had fully functioning gene-seed. but all that might have been retconned.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I think it has? I can't remember anything being specifically written about the issue in the Forge World write-up, but in either case, the fact that the Crimson Fists and Black Templars have the same issue makes it seem like it occurred before the splitting of the Legions.

[mc warhammer]

yeah, thats definitely a possibilty. or just that the seed was destined to fail across the board?

[Xisor]

Do BT and CF have the same issue? I thought it hadn't been mentioned for them?

 

As I see it, theres some interesting genetics and curse-on-genetics at work. (Or is there?) Also, some atrocious inability to use spoiler tags discuss a book recommendation without ruining it for the person recommended.

 

Nevertheless!

 

Imagine:

Blood Angels veterans are assigned to oversee two new Chapters. Salamanders oversee a third and fourth new Chapter.

 

One, an Ultramarine/White Scar geneseed mix.

The other two are both Blood Angels, but trained /led/overseen by Blood Angels OR Salamanders.

 

The UMWS Chapter uses Blood Angel sarcophagi, rituals, training regimen and leaders. Psychic instruction comes via their disciplines.

 

The second 'pure' successor also does so.

 

The first Salamander-overseen Blood Angel lineage uses Blood Angels 'tech' (sarcophagi, say), and approximates rituals, but due to time and resources, it's a bit of a token effort.

 

The last unit, pure BA geneseed, but basically raised Codex by the Salamanders, so mostly rule abiding but with a couple of idiosyncratic behaviours allowed/encouraged.

 

The question is: who gets the Black Rage, who gets the Red Thirst?

 

-----

 

And though it isn't entirely covered yet, I'm 100% thinking that whilst Carl may have sped up the process, they won't have had "perfect" results.

 

Geneseed flaws, vulnerabilities, unavoidable instabilities.

 

If you thought werewolves and vampires were problematic, just wait until you see...

 

Ultraminotaurs.

More actual firey bone dragon monster marines.

Scarred centaur abominations.

MkX Abominable Intelligence armour that imprison their biological elements to commandeer soulstuff.

Daemonic Angels.

Primaris of the Damned.

Maybe something for the Imperial Fists!?

Geneseedstealers.

[TheRealMcCagh]

A BA chapter was raised thinking they were Ultramarines. Astorath was drawn to their graveyard since killing fallen brothers is part of his job description. He gave them the bad/great news that they are in fact sons of Sanguinius. They are the Carmine Blades now. I think that is evidence nature overtakes nurture in regards to the flaws. It's doubtful some random UM descendent started using sarcophagi and did BA rituals and started suffering

[DarkChaplain]

The Imperial Fists' gene-seed should have replaced, functioning organs in new Primaris recruits, as per some lines of the background. However, the IF also didn't actually gain those defects, according to The Beast Arises, until the Chapter was basically wiped out and replaced from mostly the Fists Exemplar, who had some radiation issues for generations, which degraded particular organs. For some reason, those issues spread further after the full rebuilding of the Chapter, despite being made up of various successors as well as the Fists Exemplar, and the gene-stocks that were available.

It's a bit of a half-arsed in-universe explanation/retcon via TBA, but then, so were many things about TBA...

[Xisor]

A BA chapter was raised thinking they were Ultramarines. Astorath was drawn to their graveyard since killing fallen brothers is part of his job description. He gave them the bad/great news that they are in fact sons of Sanguinius. They are the Carmine Blades now. I think that is evidence nature overtakes nurture in regards to the flaws. It's doubtful some random UM descendent started using sarcophagi and did BA rituals and started suffering

Or that Astorath isn't reliable. (Is that Codex stuff? And did those Carmine Blades manifest the thirst and rage? Prior to Astorath showing up? Or is it similar to Christian acquisition of Ēostre festivity?)

 

@DarkChaplain: speaking of atrociously dropping uncensored spoilers out of the blue...

 

And by the by, the genetic legacy of Chapters is pretty much the definition of inbreeding. The Imperial Fists narrative & MO essentially forces this further, by filtering them through bottleneck after bottleneck of improbably vast casualties.

 

In some respects, the injection of diversity in M32 is what allowed them to last this long...

[MrDarth151]

 

 

Well, they don't have the Black Rage, as that's signified by hallucinating being at the Siege of Terra, or being Sanguinius himself. They definitely seemed to have a certain thirst for a red liquid, though.

 

Not according to the book, and the book is supposed to stand on its own.

 

The fact that parts of the ending were retconned by a codex published month later does not exactly speak in favour of the ending, you know?

 

 

... They literally see the Primaris for what, a handful of days before the novel ends, and not once in battle? The Black Rage only occurs on the eve of a battle, so that's ruled out from happening, and the Red Thirst has always been described as a gradual fall. What were you expecting, the Primaris Blood Angels to turn up, and half of them are ravening, blood-thirsty monsters?

 

All that happened is the Blood Angels got an initial impression from the Primaris that turned out to be incorrect. Occasionally, subjecting things to scrutiny for more than an hour or so proves that the first impression was actually incorrect. Not sure why you're so upset that such a horrible thing could occur. The Codex extends the timeline out for 200 years or so after the novel ends. That's plenty of time for plot development to occur.

You assuming the in-universe initial, hasty assessments of two characters to be set-in-stone canonical truth is an issue on you, not the novel.

 

 

It is assessment based on the fact that Primaris Blood Angels had no cases of the flaw for literal decades. Most of them literally don't know what it is.

 

I'm not talking about Black Rage here, I'm talking Red Thirst. Because, as per Haley, and Dante, Blood Angels ALWAYS feel the thirst. Since the moment of transformation.

 

What, the flaw was absent for 70 years of campaigning and spontaneously manifested the moment Blood Angels joined their parents chapter? Come on.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

 

Well, they don't have the Black Rage, as that's signified by hallucinating being at the Siege of Terra, or being Sanguinius himself. They definitely seemed to have a certain thirst for a red liquid, though.

 

Not according to the book, and the book is supposed to stand on its own.

 

The fact that parts of the ending were retconned by a codex published month later does not exactly speak in favour of the ending, you know?

 

 

... They literally see the Primaris for what, a handful of days before the novel ends, and not once in battle? The Black Rage only occurs on the eve of a battle, so that's ruled out from happening, and the Red Thirst has always been described as a gradual fall. What were you expecting, the Primaris Blood Angels to turn up, and half of them are ravening, blood-thirsty monsters?

 

All that happened is the Blood Angels got an initial impression from the Primaris that turned out to be incorrect. Occasionally, subjecting things to scrutiny for more than an hour or so proves that the first impression was actually incorrect. Not sure why you're so upset that such a horrible thing could occur. The Codex extends the timeline out for 200 years or so after the novel ends. That's plenty of time for plot development to occur.

You assuming the in-universe initial, hasty assessments of two characters to be set-in-stone canonical truth is an issue on you, not the novel.

 

 

It is assessment based on the fact that Primaris Blood Angels had no cases of the flaw for literal decades. Most of them literally don't know what it is.

 

I'm not talking about Black Rage here, I'm talking Red Thirst. Because, as per Haley, and Dante, Blood Angels ALWAYS feel the thirst. Since the moment of transformation.

 

What, the flaw was absent for 70 years of campaigning and spontaneously manifested the moment Blood Angels joined their parents chapter? Come on.

 

 

Think very carefully about it, there is a pretty obvious reason the flaw could show up, same for the black rage.

 

There are certain rituals the blood angels undertake as part of their early years, ones that its unlikely the primaris took part in prior to returning to Baal.

 

Also, the blood angels during the heresy fought for almost 200 years before there was any real sign of the thirst, and even then, it was a small thing with maybe one in thousands being aware of what it was. We know that the primaris were made using older stores of geneseed as a basis for the new work.

 

We also know the codex has flat out stated the blood angels primaris have the red thirst, it may be that, like during the heresy, for the majority of primaris it just results in being stronger in a fight, and only for a few does it result in an actual desire for blood generally, or maybe they all have the same desire for blood that other modern day blood angels do now.

 

Devastation of Baal ends decades before the current timeline, so it isn't exactly "spontaneous" either.

 

"come on."

[Jareddm]

 

A BA chapter was raised thinking they were Ultramarines. Astorath was drawn to their graveyard since killing fallen brothers is part of his job description. He gave them the bad/great news that they are in fact sons of Sanguinius. They are the Carmine Blades now. I think that is evidence nature overtakes nurture in regards to the flaws. It's doubtful some random UM descendent started using sarcophagi and did BA rituals and started suffering

Or that Astorath isn't reliable. (Is that Codex stuff? And did those Carmine Blades manifest the thirst and rage? Prior to Astorath showing up? Or is it similar to Christian acquisition of Ēostre festivity?)

 

@DarkChaplain: speaking of atrociously dropping uncensored spoilers out of the blue...

 

And by the by, the genetic legacy of Chapters is pretty much the definition of inbreeding. The Imperial Fists narrative & MO essentially forces this further, by filtering them through bottleneck after bottleneck of improbably vast casualties.

 

In some respects, the injection of diversity in M32 is what allowed them to last this long...

 

From the codex, The Swords of Haldroth, as they were called at the time, were afflicted with what they called, the "Blood Curse."  It was their chapter's secret that they feared would get them purged, as they had no real understanding of what was causing it.  Astorath discovered this and was able to shed light on this with the chapter.  There isn't a huge amount about the chapter other than they changed their name to the Carmine Blades and that, according to Devastation of Baal, they're seen as one of the more tribal and savage of the BA successors.