The Devastation of Baal- Discussion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m with the Hamster.

[Moonreaper666]

I bet that Ka'Bandha is going to screw with the Blood Angel Primaris and Dante next time they meet

 

Kyriss didn't receive a true death in the Heresy, so the daemon should come back to finish this part of the Blood Angels story arc

[TheRealMcCagh]

 

From the codex, The Swords of Haldroth, as they were called at the time, were afflicted with what they called, the "Blood Curse."  It was their chapter's secret that they feared would get them purged, as they had no real understanding of what was causing it.  Astorath discovered this and was able to shed light on this with the chapter.  There isn't a huge amount about the chapter other than they changed their name to the Carmine Blades and that, according to Devastation of Baal, they're seen as one of the more tribal and savage of the BA successors.

 

 

 

 

They were also split in the decision if they should even come to Baal. The older crowd felt no fealty towards the Blood Angels since they 'grew up' Ultramarines. But the younger crowd was driven to prove themselves to their newfound primogenitors. They brought it to a vote and since the new recruits outnumbered the old, they eventually made way for Baal. The PoV character is one of the older officers who, if i remember right, was a little bitter the Chapter Master even called for a vote, instead of just telling the newer guys how it's going to be.

[Jareddm]

 

 

From the codex, The Swords of Haldroth, as they were called at the time, were afflicted with what they called, the "Blood Curse."  It was their chapter's secret that they feared would get them purged, as they had no real understanding of what was causing it.  Astorath discovered this and was able to shed light on this with the chapter.  There isn't a huge amount about the chapter other than they changed their name to the Carmine Blades and that, according to Devastation of Baal, they're seen as one of the more tribal and savage of the BA successors.

 

 

 

 

They were also split in the decision if they should even come to Baal. The older crowd felt no fealty towards the Blood Angels since they 'grew up' Ultramarines. But the younger crowd was driven to prove themselves to their newfound primogenitors. They brought it to a vote and since the new recruits outnumbered the old, they eventually made way for Baal. The PoV character is one of the older officers who, if i remember right, was a little bitter the Chapter Master even called for a vote, instead of just telling the newer guys how it's going to be.

 

Huh.  I hadn't heard that before.  Was that in a new story?

[Morovir]

It was in the very book that this discussion revolves around.

[Jareddm]

It was in the very book that this discussion revolves around.

Weird, I don't recall that at all.

[TheRealMcCagh]

It's been a little while, but I think the Carmine Blades were assigned to guard to astropathic relay for Baal. So the passage starts out with the little history lesson on the Carmine Blades by way of internal monologue. Then the message that Guilliman is coming burns out all the Astropaths except one. And it is the older generation officer who takes the report from the surviving Astropath before he too dies. So it would have been towards the very end of the novel, but before the final battle.

[Axineton]

Just finished this today. Gotta say I thought it was a fantastic read, it may even get me to build a blood angels or successor chapter later on down the road. Wish I read this before secret war but there you go. Got a new book by my fave author Peter F Hamilton to read then it’s the space wolves conquest book afterwards.

[Knockagh]

I wasn’t going to bother reading this book but after dipping in and out of this thread I decided to get it on audio. Really glad I did. Superb book. The fleet battle was marvellous. I loved what he did with the boy who was the failed aspirant. Details on BA culture expounded upon once again. I loved Dante and while this didn’t quite reach those highs it was a great read.

[Xisor]

Good stuff, PP, Devastation was definitely a bit more of a seat-of-your-pants action-adventure than the more 'not a huge amount happening on-the-page' Dante.

 

In my book, such reads are usually a touch less enjoyable because of it.

 

Indeed, only Know No Fear, Flight of the Eisenstein and Legion of the Damned *really* stick out in my memory as being great, for my tastes, and still relentlessly action-packed.

 

But there's a hell of a lot of cool stuff in Dev.

 

The Successors passages, especially (also my favourite bits of "The Unforgiven", as a tangent), but also the odd 'history of Baal' glances provided by Mephiston et al.

 

Very neat.

[Guest]

I repeated myself sorry. :)

[Kastellan Kong]

I did enjoy the book but (and it'sa big but)... I really really hate Deus Ex-Machina endings. It takes away all the joy from the earlier parts as the ultimate victory has nothing to do with the characters we've invested hours reading about or their struggles that we've invested ourselves in. Very unsatisfactory, which is such a shame, because up to that point I loved the book. Over all rating falls to a flat 2 out of 5. I'm not even sure how much of the ending was forced on Guy Haley by what was already set in place by the general 40k narrative moving forward.

 

A real shame.

 

Also not a huge fan of how the Primaris were handled and agreed whole heartedly with Seth on the matter. Heresy. They pretty much say that the rage and thirst are not seen in the Primaris. He also points out quite rightly that Guilliman has usurped the Emeror in all but title. He carries his sword, commands his armies and is surrounded by his bodyguards. If any other Primarchs come back, there will be another civil war and the death of the Imperium... great.

Nor am I a fan of the idea that recruiting from death worlds is bad. In a universe where there is "only war", being tough isn't a bad thing, while being a bleeding heart is. Guilliman seems dangerously naive. Deathworld recruits have held the Imperium together for 10k years while he's been quasi-dead. Nice people don't win wars, nor do they get the girl.

 

I enjoyed the book immensely until the Hand of God ruined it.

[Panzer]

Also not a huge fan of how the Primaris were handled and agreed whole heartedly with Seth on the matter. Heresy. They pretty much say that the rage and thirst are not seen in the Primaris. He also points out quite rightly that Guilliman has usurped the Emeror in all but title. He carries his sword, commands his armies and is surrounded by his bodyguards. If any other Primarchs come back, there will be another civil war and the death of the Imperium... great.

Nor am I a fan of the idea that recruiting from death worlds is bad. In a universe where there is "only war", being tough isn't a bad thing, while being a bleeding heart is. Guilliman seems dangerously naive. Deathworld recruits have held the Imperium together for 10k years while he's been quasi-dead. Nice people don't win wars, nor do they get the girl.

 

 

Eh, it got said the rage and thirst are not seen in the Primaris but the Codex very strongly hints that later on Corbulo discovers the thirst is very much so still part of the Primaris after all. Apparently one of the things Cawl didn't fix due it being intended by the Emperors designs. No sign of the rage so far but that could simply be because GW didn't release Deathcompany Primaris yet. For the better or worse they don't write about units they don't have models for with some few exceptions (like the Overlord flyer).

 

The argument about Guilliman leading the IoM now is pretty much intended as I see it. It's not just us readers who might feel uncomfortable about him more or less replacing the Emperor, it's also the people in-universe having to decide how to handle it. So as that I think it's fine. Adds some more to include in new stories. That doesn't necessarily mean there would be another civil war if another Primarch comes back tho.

 

And finally about the recruiting from death worlds, Guilliman is right. It doesn't matter whether a recruit grew up barely surviving or well-fed spending his time in schools and whatnot. The whole process of turning them into Marines will basically re-write what they've experienced since then thanks to the psycho-indoctrination, forced super human maturing and chemicals released in their new bodies. Limiting your recruiting to death worlds and actively keeping those worlds as death worlds does nothing else than keeping your number of recruits low and the people you are sworn to protect living in misery.

Nice people don't win wars but Marines aren't nice people regardless of from where they come. They still don't get the girl tho. :P

[Indefragable]

I wholeheartedly agree on the Deus Ex Machina thing. That feels written by the New Product Marketing team.

 

That being said...did Guilliman (and Ka'Bhanda!) show up and win the fight? Or did they show up just after the hard part was over to turn a pyrhic victory (but a victory) into a Chapter and homeworld actually surviving. Dante kills the Swarmlord (though getting direly wounded in the process) and the Last Charge of Baal wipes out most (but not all) of the remaining Tyranid ground forces at the heart of the battle. If I remember, Dante is able to lie there bleeding out, unmolested for some time. If the Tyranids were still a coherent fighting force then surely they would have descended on him like hyenas. I kind of picture Guilliman + Co like the eagles at the end of LOTR: arriving in enough time to do work and save the good guys, but after the tipping point of the victory has already been achieved. Been a few months since I've read it. Point is, did the BA win by defeating the bulk of the 'Nids, but were at risk of being rendered future ineffective by the remnants? Or were they at the brink of annihilation (essentially losing the battle) only to be saved by the blue clad cavalry?

 

Guilliman's "death worlds don't make better soldiers" thing is exactly the type of thing that make me :cuss -ing hate Guilliman with a fiery passion bordering on Khornate bloodlust. Of course he decrees that because Ultramar is such a paradise. It just shows his ignorance in my eyes, dictating that "my way is the da bestest way!" He's a petty warlord who thinks his town is the best place for night life just because it has a slot machine at the pub downtown. I would have far more respect if he was like "ya know, the Imperial Fists recruitment practices, combined with the Salamanders PT routine, run through the academic training that the Raven Guard provide, while rounded out by the meditation practices of the Mentor legion will objectively produce the best warriors." But no, of course it's Ultramar that everyone needs to be like <eye roll>. The thing is, I like Guilliman when he's one of eighteen brothers with methods and views that kinda make sense. But when he so ignorantly rams them down everyone else's throats, within consideration, he's just :cuss . I also objectively agree that Baal (and like death worlds) deserve some love and don't have to be mericless hell pits...but that by no means proves in any way shape or form that Guilliman's right about knowing what exactly produces the best warriors. You'd think he of all people would want the laboratory element of seeing as many different diverse ways that Astartes can be formed.  Like Seth said: "he'll make Ultramarines of us all." And that's what is so :cuss -ing damaging to everything we hold dear about the diversity of the Imperium, both within the setting and the "meta" experience of customers.

 

<end rant>

[Frater Antodeniel]

Devastation of Baal is a good book, but it isn't the Great book it could and should have been.

 

Dante was a great prequel, an introduction book to the Blood Angels lore, and a Classic for all Blood Angels fans. Following this great work, Devastation of Baal was destined to surpass Dante, yet while good, it isn't at the level of what should have been the depiction of one of the Greatest battle since the Horus Heresy.

 

Objectively, i think that Devastation of Baal should have been a 3 books lenght, with the Preparations, the Battle for Baal and its system, and the Last Stand. Guy Haley got all the good ideas, but the lenght of a single book seem to have restrained him. Without the space to describe the many details of the Scene, he focused on the main ideas.

 

For exemple, successors chapters did not receive enough attention, it would have been good that at least 2-3 other successors may have got as much attention as the Angels Excelsis, who got a pretty good description with many pages/chapters on their own, through which we learned of their history and idiosyncrasy.

 

On the same tone than the Angels Excelsis, and given the few elements Guy Haley described about the other successors, it would have been very interresting to have a depiction of the battle in/for the Librarius, with Golden Sons Captain Cantar and the Flesh Eaters Chief Librarian Scaraban as the POV characters. Also, a depiction of the fall to the thirst of the Angels Encarmine could have deserved a chapter of its own. And what of the Blood Angels Chapter forge ? A whole chapter dedicated of the awakening of the many relics vehicles and....Dreadnought of the Chapter and their successors would have been very interresting, how cool it would have been to read the awakening of Horus Heresy era heroes. Also, a much better depiction of the battle in the void, with more detail as to the space marines spacecraft would have been for the better.

 

Another of the big letdown of the Devastation of Baal story, is the complete absence of all other Imperial Forces. In the Shield of Baal campaign and the Dante novel, you have other Imperial forces, and in the previous codexes, all stated that Dante rised defenses on Baal like never before, yet in Devastation of Baal, Dante is shown as doing things in a hurry, arming civilians at the very last minute....

 

Finally, the ending with the Primaris is....Meh...on a personnal note, i would have prefered the Primaris to arrive weeks if not months after the battle, to discover entranched Blood Angels survivors purging the last remnants of the hive fleet on Baal and its moons, victorious but obviously broken. The fact that the Primaris are described as the one who ended and saved the Blood Angels rob the same Blood Angels of their glorious but bloodied victory.

 

Devastation of Baal could have been so much, yet certainly due to an imposed schedule (and the objective of supporting Primaris....), it did not ended up being "Complete" nor Great. It is a Good book on the Blood Angels fluff, filled with the core story, good elements and good ideas.

 

Fortunatly, since the construction of the novel focused on some "Core" events, it mentioned the others events without interfering with them, leaving open the way for short-stories/novella/maybe novels, the opportunity to fill the gaps in the future. Yet, because of "Primaris", i wonder if future stories about the Devastation of Baal events will ever be possible.

 

 

Also, one big error in the Fluff : The description of the Angels Sanguine Captain....Guy Haley clearly forget that the Angels Sanguine always hide their face and body to all others, even the others Blood Angels and successors...that was one big mistake.

[Panzer]

I wholeheartedly agree on the Deus Ex Machina thing. That feels written by the New Product Marketing team.

 

That being said...did Guilliman (and Ka'Bhanda!) show up and win the fight? Or did they show up just after the hard part was over to turn a pyrhic victory (but a victory) into a Chapter and homeworld actually surviving. Dante kills the Swarmlord (though getting direly wounded in the process) and the Last Charge of Baal wipes out most (but not all) of the remaining Tyranid ground forces at the heart of the battle. If I remember, Dante is able to lie there bleeding out, unmolested for some time. If the Tyranids were still a coherent fighting force then surely they would have descended on him like hyenas. I kind of picture Guilliman + Co like the eagles at the end of LOTR: arriving in enough time to do work and save the good guys, but after the tipping point of the victory has already been achieved. Been a few months since I've read it. Point is, did the BA win by defeating the bulk of the 'Nids, but were at risk of being rendered future ineffective by the remnants? Or were they at the brink of annihilation (essentially losing the battle) only to be saved by the blue clad cavalry?

 

Guilliman's "death worlds don't make better soldiers" thing is exactly the type of thing that make me -ing hate Guilliman with a fiery passion bordering on Khornate bloodlust. Of course he decrees that because Ultramar is such a paradise. It just shows his ignorance in my eyes, dictating that "my way is the da bestest way!" He's a petty warlord who thinks his town is the best place for night life just because it has a slot machine at the pub downtown. I would have far more respect if he was like "ya know, the Imperial Fists recruitment practices, combined with the Salamanders PT routine, run through the academic training that the Raven Guard provide, while rounded out by the meditation practices of the Mentor legion will objectively produce the best warriors." But no, of course it's Ultramar that everyone needs to be like <eye roll>. The thing is, I like Guilliman when he's one of eighteen brothers with methods and views that kinda make sense. But when he so ignorantly rams them down everyone else's throats, within consideration, he's just . I also objectively agree that Baal (and like death worlds) deserve some love and don't have to be mericless hell pits...but that by no means proves in any way shape or form that Guilliman's right about knowing what exactly produces the best warriors. You'd think he of all people would want the laboratory element of seeing as many different diverse ways that Astartes can be formed.  Like Seth said: "he'll make Ultramarines of us all." And that's what is so -ing damaging to everything we hold dear about the diversity of the Imperium, both within the setting and the "meta" experience of customers.

 

<end rant>

 

Guilliman definitely didn't win the fight imo. The Blood Angels + successors fought a good and hard fight but had still a huge part of the hive fleet to deal with when they were close to losing the fight. Then the warp rift happened which is the thing that actually screwed with the hive fleet and killed most of them + left the individual tyranids super confused and partially stunned since it literally destroyed the hive mind itself for a while. That gave the Blood Angels a chance to fight back. When the initial outburst of the warp rift disappeared from Baal most of the hive fleet was already gone and THEN Guilliman with his Primaris appeared and took care of the rest. They were barely more than the clean up crew in this scenario. A much needed one since the Blood Angels didn't have the strength to end the fight on their own anymore but still just that.

 

Ka'Bhanda and his daemons probably killed all the tyranids on Baal Primus (or was it Secundus? I forgot) but that should have been a comparably small part of the whole hive fleet I'd say.

 

 

I don't remember Guilliman saying that the best warriors come from properly governed planets like in Ultramar. All he did say is that the people living on Sanguinius home planet(s) deserve a better life and that recruiting from death worlds doesn't automatically make them better Marines. Also he designated Baal as THE planet on that side of the warp rift so it makes sense for it to not stay a death world lol

[aa.logan]

I’ve just listened to Dante and this in succession. Then read through this thread, which felt like it took longer than the combined listening time. Some great points have been made, drawing on the text and actually reading the story, and also people bouncing misconceptions against each other. Forums at their best...

 

The books are both really good; the development of Baalite culture and aspirant life is nicely vivid. There are enough similarities to other books that explore it- the Heresy Dark Angels books, the WIlliam King Ragnar books, Space Marine and Sons of Dorn off the top of my head- to ground what it is like to enter a chapter in-universe, but it is distinct enough to set the Blood Angels apart. Likewise, the way that the successor chapters interact has echoes of what we’ve seen (mainly the Feast of the Blades in various books with the Fists, and the Unfirgiven being shady together or are there others?) is generic enough to meet expectations of Astartes inter-chapter relations, but also is just set apart enough to be unique- the way that different chapters are shown to embody different aspects of the Blood Angels duality tells us loads about the nature of Sanguinius.

 

But my biggest take away from the book is the depiction of the Tyranids. They might be Guy’s best work. The chapters with *the* Lictor as a POV character were immense- fantastically written in themselves, but also really emphasising the unrelatable alien-ness of the Hive Fleets. I would have liked more of them, though they may have gotten a little samey- would canifex ‘thought’ processses be that different?

 

I’ve always like the notion that whatever else happens in 40k doesn’t matter ultimately as sooner or later the Tyranids are going to actually show up in force and devour *everything*; this book, tidy and convenient (but good!) ending aside, really did start to capture the desperation and despair of facing down the hive fleets- if marines are doubting their chances, you know it’s bad...