Chaos Terminators Discussion: How to support them

[Aothaine]

So just flipping through the dex I understand that Chaos Terminators with combi-plasma are really good alpha strike units. Giving them Mark of Slaanesh is a no brainer for competitive play. Tossing in a Slaanesh Sorcerer for that 5+ FNP and prescience is really helpful.

 

What I'm trying to figure out is how to build an army around this alpha strike block.

 

What I'm thinking about running as the core of the list:

 

Legion: Iron Warriors

(Warlord) Chaos Daemon Prince - Slaanesh - double malific talons - elixir & fleshmetal - wings (Can this deepstrike now?)

Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armor - Mark of Slaanesh - rest of the wargear doesn't really matter

Chaos Terminator Squad (10 man) - All with power swords and combi-plasma - Mark of Slaanesh

 

This all together should be getting close to 1000 points. So I'm trying to figure out what else to add.

 

If I'm going assault I'm thinking of grabbing 2 Heldrakes, as many 2-3 units of 3-man obliterator squads and fill the rest of the points with csm squads. Not sure if I'll have the points for all this as I know the obliterators are expensive.

 

What do everyone here find useful for supporting your terminators with combi-plasma alpha strikes? Do you find a 5-man terminator squad works better? Just curious as if I'm going to spend 2 CPs to fire twice the math proves that 40 over-charged plasma shots are more effective than 20.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I haven't tried this but I have to say I'm super-skeptical that paying that much for between 10 and 20 Plasma shots is in any way worth it.

 

Wouldn't two MSU Raptor squads with Plasma Gun and a Pistol/Combi-Plasma achieve much the same effect at about half the cost?

[hushrong]

In my AL army I ran a unit of 8 with combi-plasma, powerfists (overkill I know), and mark of slaanesh for around 500 I think. I had a lord with them for rerolls and he had a black mace for extra killing. Normally they would drop in overcharge/rapid fire and remove a threat from the table, then use the slaanesh stratagem to do it again, and finally charge in and punch something else to death. 

 

In most of my games they would normally either eliminate three things entirely or severely cripple them on their arriving turn before my opponents army rounded on them.

 

I wouldn't mind using a sorcerer on them for buffs and stratagems like VoTLW (the one that helps with wounding, right?) for helping them kill even easier.

[ChazSexington]

I see the strongest support in the form of Sorcerer. Prescience, Warptime, Death Hex, and the Tzeentch power on MoT Termies is also solid. 

 

Obliviously a Chaos Lord or Aspiring Champion would be good, especially for plasma-toting ones.

[Galron]

I am not skeptical at all. with my Iron Warriors I use three squads of terminators and they rock. I use 3 squads of 5, one with 5 combi plasma, 1 with 4 combi-melta and reaper, and one with combi bolters and reaper. They all have various hand weapons. Typically I keep two of them together with a lord for the rerolls, one always being the plasma team. My last game was against a horde of nidzilla and none of them went home empty handed. My plasma dropped down and killed old one eye in a single volley, while the bolters killed a damaged artillery bug. The Meltas dropped on top of a tower within range but not within ability to be charged of his warlord and managed to get him down to 2 wounds. I use mark of Slaanesh because they are so well trained they can reload faster than everyone else. The next turn the plasma dudes took out a tunneling bug, followed by a carnifex the next round. In previous games they have one shotted other daemon princes and almost took down Mortarion in a single volley. Combi-plasma termies are where its at when you really need something to die in a hurry. I never play a game without them at a minimum. But again, I don't do the super buffing, just a 1 for the rerolls, endless cacophony and call it a day. I almost think 10 would be overkill.

 

Heres a side question I just thought of, do you guys roll each dude's plasma separately or as a group per volley?

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

So... you repeatedly use one-shot weapons?

[Elazar The Glorified]

They're not 1 shot weapons in 8th

 

I've been making use of the same strategy. Been trying to run them as proxy Obliterators too just to see how the difference feels. Still not sure which is better in a catch-all role

Edited November 21, 2017 by Elazar The Glorified

[Sonoftherubric21]

I would personally stick with a five man.  Ten is a huge number and...somewhat overkill. 

The Slannesh sorcerer is a great addition, warptime and prescience being the standard. 

 

When I drop mine I use a 5 man, two fists, 3 combi-meltas, and 3 axes. They drop, they pop a tank, they get a charge off and wail on something if lucky, and usually they die, but not without a good reason.  Often from lack of support, but if they (using plasma or melta!) drop up field you will often see them die after hopefully completeting their mission.  

Supporting up field I often will drop a Raptor squad with a plasma load out (also slannesh marked) and if they all happen to plug a squad or 2 thats great, but are cheap enough that if they die you dont care "to" much.   

 

Endless Cacophony is to good and incredibly useful. being black legion I have another bonus to go with it for those squads with "Let the Galaxy Burn" giving the lord re-rolls for one of those units. 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

They're not 1 shot weapons in 8th

 

Damn, I didn't pick up on that. 

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

Carry on.

[old git]

A unit of 8 'cos KHORNE!!!

 

5 combi meltas, 3 combi flamers for horde work and overwatch, power axes, Icon of Wrath. The only support I give them is a termie lord who 'ports in with them for the rerolls and some CC ability.

[Aothaine]

Some good ideas in here for sure. I'm really only liking Iron Warriors for the Artifact, it is the best one imho and turns the Daemon Prince into something just as scary as the terminators.

 

Also keep in mind that we can split the fire of our units. So going with unit size 10 is better if you are going to use the Slaanesh stratagem as it affects more units that only need to be within 12" for maximum effectiveness. 

 

I think the goal here is to present too many priority targets for the opponent to deal with. 

 

The Daemon Prince, 2-4 Heldrakes, the 10-man terminator squad + Sorc maybe 1-2 helbrutes and 3-5 min sized csm squads with bolters and a lasgun for support? Again.. not sure about the points here

 

===============================================

 

If you were running smaller term squads I think dropping the sorc for the lord would be a good choice and then drop the squad size down to 5-man.

 

5 combi-plasma

5 combi-melta

lord in term with melee relic

 

While slaanesh would be useful here it might be better to go with something else. Perhaps Khorne and pick up the collar for the denial. Give the terms power swords & axes with a PF in each unit?

 

Then support this with Quad Lascannon preds and a helbrute with some 5-man CSM squads with las cannons running around to objectives?

 

Honestly I think I prefer my terminators as cheap as possible and the Combi-plasma & Power Sword is more than likely the option I would take here. 

 

Anyone else want to chime in on Terminator setups and what other units in the army best support them?

 

What about the Khorne dogs? Run a Daemons battalion with the dogs then run a elite detatchment for the sorc&daemon prince with the 10-man term two helbrutes and 4 heldrakes?

[the jeske]

overkill is a must have in 8th, because of how offten stuff like G-man or DP has to be killed, so small squads do not cut it. In general one could support the terminators with a slingshoted Prince/Morty/Magnus/GD or infiltrating zerkers. I doubt there is enough free points in a 2k list to run 2 units of termintors without making it worse. On the other hand the formation stuff is used in chaos lists offten enough [well those non soup/non tournament/non FW ones at least], so they work ok. 8-10 dudes with combi plasma 2-3 fists seem to do stuff well enough. MoS buffs them a lot, and it is a must have like for all chaos stuff that tries to shot.

 

DG termintors[of the normal kind] are interesting too, but DG are too different from csm to compare both units being used.

[ChazSexington]

overkill is a must have in 8th, because of how offten stuff like G-man or DP has to be killed, so small squads do not cut it. In general one could support the terminators with a slingshoted Prince/Morty/Magnus/GD or infiltrating zerkers. I doubt there is enough free points in a 2k list to run 2 units of termintors without making it worse. On the other hand the formation stuff is used in chaos lists offten enough [well those non soup/non tournament/non FW ones at least], so they work ok. 8-10 dudes with combi plasma 2-3 fists seem to do stuff well enough. MoS buffs them a lot, and it is a must have like for all chaos stuff that tries to shot.

 

DG termintors[of the normal kind] are interesting too, but DG are too different from csm to compare both units being used.

 

I'd disagree in general, but maybe not in this specific instance. MSU allows for more CPs and increases the chance of overkill, while maximising weapons. As you mention, it relies on the point cost involved.

 

Also, I'm not the only one who thinks chainfists got a lot worse? 2dmg is nothing for taking down vehicles. I did some maths in 7th (admittedly for Lernaean Terminators), and I need a helluva lot more chainfists to wreck a vehicle now. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by ChazSexington

[Galron]

No joke. Had my first real terminators vs a dreadnought fight without looking at the rules for them and having them armed the same way I had them in 7th and previous. It was not a pretty fight pinging a little here and a little there and ending up with two guys left from a squad with two chainfists and three power fists. I thught the whole purpose of chainfists was ripping open armored bulkheads and tearing through vehicles. Guess I should have looked first. I was figuring it was 2d6 pick the highest like melta since they performed a similar function in previous editions. I was very disappointed.

[Closet Skeleton]

Split fire means there's no need to worry about a 10 man squad being overkill. At worst you'll have to lose some shots after everything in rapid fire range dies.

 

Legion: Iron Warriors

(Warlord) Chaos Daemon Prince - Slaanesh - double malific talons - elixir & fleshmetal - wings (Can this deepstrike now?)

 

You can't have the Intoxicating Elixir and Fleshmetal armour because its one relic per model.

 

Daemon Princes can't deepstrike unless you summon the non-heretic astartes version.

[OnboardG1]

A ten man squad with combi-bolters is actually pretty solid as a street sweeper. Drop three command points and prescience and you're going to be getting 80 shots that hit on 2s, wound at + 1 (hilarious bolter anti-tank shenanigans) and aren't going to blast the bank open. 

[Panzer]

I honestly never understood why Chainfists were so strong when everywhere else chain weapons are weaker than power weapons. ^^

[Blackcadian]

A Kytan would be a pretty good diversion from/for the Plasma-Terminators, no? I’m not even joking, either, I’m eyeing one for Christmas. I’ll complete the army with my Sicaran, Scorpius, a Quad-Heavy Bolter Rapier and some objective grabbers. Does that sound viable? Will be playing against Eldar, Ultras and AdMech mostly.

[Sonoftherubric21]

A ten man squad with combi-bolters is actually pretty solid as a street sweeper. Drop three command points and prescience and you're going to be getting 80 shots that hit on 2s, wound at + 1 (hilarious bolter anti-tank shenanigans) and aren't going to blast the bank open. 

 

ya know; this thought hard occured to me. 

 

Stick that on a black legion chosen squad and hit em with the "let the galaxy burn" 

 

5 combi bolters, 5 bolters, hitting on 2's, re rolling 1's, wounding on +1 due to VOTL. and for extra mean; do it again with Endless Cacophony. 

[Aothaine]

 

A ten man squad with combi-bolters is actually pretty solid as a street sweeper. Drop three command points and prescience and you're going to be getting 80 shots that hit on 2s, wound at + 1 (hilarious bolter anti-tank shenanigans) and aren't going to blast the bank open. 

 

ya know; this thought hard occured to me. 

 

Stick that on a black legion chosen squad and hit em with the "let the galaxy burn" 

 

5 combi bolters, 5 bolters, hitting on 2's, re rolling 1's, wounding on +1 due to VOTL. and for extra mean; do it again with Endless Cacophony. 

 

 

But can chosen get into rapid fire range on turn 1 when a unit like that will matter most? I know some of the models have wings but I don't have my codex with me. Do you have the option to deep strike?

[Galron]

Not without a dreadclaw drop pod.

[Warsmith Manat-Yi]

So I've been using terminators pretty heavily this edition to mixed effect. My most success came from my ten-man combiplasma/axe slaanesh blob. They come in with a termy sorcerer dropping prescience and agonies. It's almost 700pts but I've always seen it make it's points back.

 

I'm running them in an AL list with my Leviathan and some havocs supported by a prince marshalling a buttload of cultists.

 

I typically see them eat through four units on turn one. I've killed pask and two wyverns on the first turn, and proceeded to kill two more russ on the next.

 

The key is to take time to eat through whatever screen your opponent has on turn 1. It's easy if you have a lot of butcher cannons like me, but I've done the job with just havocs too. I feel like a 20 man fist of noisemarines is another good screen clearer, but I've yet to try it.

[Aothaine]

So I've been using terminators pretty heavily this edition to mixed effect. My most success came from my ten-man combiplasma/axe slaanesh blob. They come in with a termy sorcerer dropping prescience and agonies. It's almost 700pts but I've always seen it make it's points back.

 

I'm running them in an AL list with my Leviathan and some havocs supported by a prince marshalling a buttload of cultists.

 

I typically see them eat through four units on turn one. I've killed pask and two wyverns on the first turn, and proceeded to kill two more russ on the next.

 

The key is to take time to eat through whatever screen your opponent has on turn 1. It's easy if you have a lot of butcher cannons like me, but I've done the job with just havocs too. I feel like a 20 man fist of noisemarines is another good screen clearer, but I've yet to try it.

 

This is what I was thinking would happen. The 10-man units gives you the most value for your CPs. It doesn't matter if they are not initially targeting the juicy innards of their army. Plasma clears chaff as good as bolters. 

 

Something else I was thinking was running some long range anti-chaff units. Like Havocs with Reaper Auto cannons allowing the 10-man termies to clean up the filling. Anyone know of any other anti-chaff units we have that might be able to fill a similar role? 

[Warsmith Manat-Yi]

 

 

So I've been using terminators pretty heavily this edition to mixed effect. My most success came from my ten-man combiplasma/axe slaanesh blob. They come in with a termy sorcerer dropping prescience and agonies. It's almost 700pts but I've always seen it make it's points back.

 

I'm running them in an AL list with my Leviathan and some havocs supported by a prince marshalling a buttload of cultists.

 

I typically see them eat through four units on turn one. I've killed pask and two wyverns on the first turn, and proceeded to kill two more russ on the next.

 

The key is to take time to eat through whatever screen your opponent has on turn 1. It's easy if you have a lot of butcher cannons like me, but I've done the job with just havocs too. I feel like a 20 man fist of noisemarines is another good screen clearer, but I've yet to try it.

This is what I was thinking would happen. The 10-man units gives you the most value for your CPs. It doesn't matter if they are not initially targeting the juicy innards of their army. Plasma clears chaff as good as bolters.

 

Something else I was thinking was running some long range anti-chaff units. Like Havocs with Reaper Auto cannons allowing the 10-man termies to clean up the filling. Anyone know of any other anti-chaff units we have that might be able to fill a similar role?

Initially I had a second ten-man blob with fists and combibolters come down first, but I really feel like my Leviathan and two deredeo combo worked best. You can peg a lot of units with that -2Ld to kill off any stragglers at the end of the phase with battleshock. Plus they're significantly tougher than havocs terminators and noisemarines.

[Stross]

I tried to run 10 man squad against IG. It was terrible. The enemy have a perfect screen of Sentinels and Conscripts, not allowing to deepstrike near the most tasty targets. 

I took 5 meltas and 5 plasmas. With Abaddon behind. And Sorcerer behind. Warptime work, Prescience was denied. They barely destroyed command Leman (bad rolls for damage) and left another Punisher with 10 wounds from overheat plasma (1 die after it instantly). 

Then they charged into conscripts and kill 12 or so with power axes (Abaddon didn't roll 9 for a charge). Enemy spend 2 CP to pass morale. 

And then he just fell back and 2 Wywerns, 2 Punishers, Taurox, three guardsmen squads and two blobs of consctipts just obliterate it. 

So, the morale here: if your enemy have a good screen and you have nothing to clean it, 500 pts just thrown into trash

 

Another bad time was with tyranids. All guys were with meltas and power axes. Nids had Malanthrope, so there was -1 to hit in shooting phase. Even with abaddon I could not kill Hive Tyrant and Swarmlord. I tried to charge into swarmfuhrer and kill it, but again Abaddon was left behind. And with 3+ invul of this thing in close combate they fight two rounds (Swarmlord had 2 wounds and could not fight normally) until he just retreat and allow genestealers to destroy them brutally. 

Morale: without support of your own units, terminator's strike can be doomed from very beginning

Edited November 23, 2017 by Stross