Are Primaris Psykers and Astropaths Overpowered?

[TheShredder]

Basically the title - do you think Primaris Psykers and/or Astropaths are overpowered?

 

I ask because I've seen a couple f threads on dakkadakka saying that, for their current abilities, Primaris Psykers should cost at least 70pts.

 

For a psyker that can only cast one power per turn, this seems rather silly to me. Especially since Primaris Psykers are about as bare-bones as you can get (no reroll, no invulnerable save, no auras etc.).

 

Any thoughts on this?

[micahwc]

I could see the argument if Chaos didn't have access to 30 point Malefic Lords that turn into mini-daemon prince's when they peril, and who have a 4++ built into their cost. Considering Imperium and Chaos both have access to cheap psykers, and that'll probably a good 2/3+ of the armies in the game, I think it's fine.

[momerathe]

It's 'cos of smite spam. As a buffing character I think the Primaris psyker is fine. The astropath with laspistol is crazy cheap though.

 

Whether you think smite spam is a problem tends to be a function of how elite your army is. I know my custodes-playing buddy hates it.

 

There have been rumours (for which I can't find the source) of an upcoming nerf/restriction on smite in chapter approved, so maybe that will solve the issue. If it's true, which it might not be.

[olcottr]

They are perfectly priced, IMHO.

[Feral_80]

Ridiculous. Primaris are ok, but barely worth their cost when you compare them to similar units from other codexes.

 

Astropaths are fine for dispel-spam, which only is useful against certain armies. And for the once-per-turn -1 be hit power.

 

As always, Dakkadakka is a hub for nonsense.

[duz_]

It's 'cos of smite spam. As a buffing character I think the Primaris psyker is fine. The astropath with laspistol is crazy cheap though.

 

Whether you think smite spam is a problem tends to be a function of how elite your army is. I know my custodes-playing buddy hates it.

 

There have been rumours (for which I can't find the source) of an upcoming nerf/restriction on smite in chapter approved, so maybe that will solve the issue. If it's true, which it might not be.

 

 

This! Its not so much their price, but the ability to smite spam.

Pointwise I think they are about right for the reasons you have already mentioned.

I would ignore the thread and move on.

There is a subset of people who will always abuse units to gain an advantage, see: Commissars + Conscripts or BS3+ Plasma Guardsmen.

[Altasmurf]

Meh I think they're undercosted. And for for the record i think those chaos guys are too. Undercosted might be the wrong word. They're to easy to spam. I would rather see the astropath be forced to take the staff, and the primaris given an invuln with a point increase. Still cheap enough but making a little less spammable.

[Schlitzaf]

With Primaris Pyskers at 40, how do they come compare to Inquistors at 55? I just want to put food for thought out there. Should all sub 60ish Smite Pyskers get the bat? And at end of the day how many points is 3ish wounds every 2ish turns actually worth?

 

I think if Smite didn’t have the SuperSmite or SuperSmite 1d3+1 it wouldn’t be as bad. I think how much should 8 wounds over course of a game be worth?

[FallenSoldiers]

They can cast 1 and deny 1.

 

Astropaths can only smite on 1D6.

 

No invuln, no rerolls (built in).

 

They’re absolutely fine. I second the comment about the Malefic Lords being a much larger issue than any of our psykers. People just like to complain. Even smite spam has counters, people just don’t want to have to think about it.

[micahwc]

8 wounds that are really hard to block. Smite is great against things like superheavy tanks and knights, when their high toughness and good armor do nothing to protect them. I think the easiest way to mitigate the smite spam problem would be to limit the number of times you can cast smite. I'm not sure what the ideal number would be but I'm sure good playtesting could figure that out.

[FallenSoldiers]

Why would your tank or SH be right in front of their psyker though? Remember, smite has to target the closest model.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah if you're running without a screen or have left your armour out of position you kinda deserve it. Primaris Psykers have very little in the way of movement shenanigans.

[Withershadow]

Astropaths with just a pistol are probably a tad too cheap. Make stick mandatory.

[TheShredder]

Astropaths with just a pistol are probably a tad too cheap. Make stick mandatory.

 

In fairness, the stick seems insanely expensive for a model with WS4+ and 1 attack.

 

I'm not saying that the laspistol Astropath isn't necessarily too cheap, just that the difference in price between the laspistol and stave seems way too high. 

[mertbl]

Dakka also had a thread on first rank second rank being too good. I wouldn't concern myself too much with their thoughts.

 

I don't think primaris are undercoated. Maybe the astropath, make the staff 5 points and mandatory.

 

If smite spam is a problem maybe the rules for smite need looked at, perhaps half paykers can cast or warp charge goes up by 1 each time it is attempted.

[Tirak]

Smite spam isn't a problem on astropaths. Besides, they're a t3 model with a 5+ save, any more and they'd be too expensive. Sure they've got great utility for their price, but with the current limitations on other psychic powers they're not ridiculous.

[Withershadow]

Astropath smite is a non issue, but they are an extremely easy way to fill out elite slots, and have access to a lot of great buffs.

 

The cost and squishiness of PPsykers balances out their smite capabilities too. Really people are just shell shocked from reading internet reports of malefic lords and so are crapping themselves as part of some global neckbeard hive mind.

 

Dakka forumites are the whiniest and most ignorant bunch since Warseer.

[Imperator Deus]

Both Primaris Psykers and Astropaths are fine as they are. So were Conscripts and Commissars. None of them are or were overpowered, the biggest problem in 8th edition (and the source of all the anti-Conscript hysteria), is spam, and it's really only a problem at the high-end tournament level. Those guys spam the out of everything! GW needs to do something about that. I don't know what the solution is, but spam needs to be restricted somehow. Nobody should be spamming 14 or 15 of anything except maybe Troops choices, and that's still a big maybe. I look at the army lists from those tournaments online (Nova, etc.), and they all look like the most un-fun thing I could ever imagine playing with or against. Imho it was formations that broke 7th edition, and if things stay this way, spam will break 8th.

[Reviler]

I could see the argument if Chaos didn't have access to 30 point Malefic Lords that turn into mini-daemon prince's when they peril, and who have a 4++ built into their cost. Considering Imperium and Chaos both have access to cheap psykers, and that'll probably a good 2/3+ of the armies in the game, I think it's fine.

Malefic lords are going up to 80pts, in the chapter approved book, its on the warhammer community page. Might limit that issue. However will it make the Primaris psyker next in line? Will they change cost in the CA:2017 book. There are plenty of changes apparently, inc FW stuff.

[Halfpint100]

 

I could see the argument if Chaos didn't have access to 30 point Malefic Lords that turn into mini-daemon prince's when they peril, and who have a 4++ built into their cost. Considering Imperium and Chaos both have access to cheap psykers, and that'll probably a good 2/3+ of the armies in the game, I think it's fine.

Malefic lords are going up to 80pts, in the chapter approved book, its on the warhammer community page. Might limit that issue. However will it make the Primaris psyker next in line? Will they change cost in the CA:2017 book. There are plenty of changes apparently, inc FW stuff.

 

 

Aw you beat me to it! They might get a slight increase, but not a lot. They do not have the 4++ inbuilt or the uber rage perils mode. 

[Guardsman Bob]

I would ignore the thread and move on.

Sure if you want to stay sane and rational.

 

I’m getting concerned over how comfortable the Devs are with appeasing internet trolls. Worse yet when they seem to put on the blinders with how broken “to hit” pentalties can get. At least the results seem to be a mixed bag to an extent.

[TheShredder]

 

I would ignore the thread and move on.

Sure if you want to stay sane and rational.

 

I’m getting concerned over how comfortable the Devs are with appeasing internet trolls. Worse yet when they seem to put on the blinders with how broken “to hit” pentalties can get. At least the results seem to be a mixed bag to an extent.

 

 

The other issue is that they fix potential problems with a hammer rather than a scalpel. 

 

For example, let's say we accept that Commissars were a problem with Conscripts. Okay, fine, so the solution is to tweak the interaction between those two units, right? Nope. We'll just make Commissars a liability for basically every unit except Conscripts. Bravo. Now the only Commissar you'll ever see on a table is the one painted on the front of the IG codex.

 

Then you've got the recent Ynnari "fix". I'll admit to not having a huge amount of experience with Ynnari, but preventing it from working on your opponent's turn *and* limiting you to one Soulburst of each type per turn seems rather extreme. Would not one or the other have been sufficient?  

[Thorakitai]

For reference, a space marine primaris librarian is 105 points. If a primaris psyker goes up to say, 70 points, then all other psykers should go up too. Eldar spiritseers are 45 points I think, and are much better than primaris psykers as it is. A farseer is 100 points. Looked at in context of other psykers, primaris psykers aren't undercosted at all.

 

Frankly, the problem is smite being the only multi cast power, and being designed to take down tough units. People don't like anything that hurts their (what passes for in 8th edition) deathstars easily, the same issue (among others) that D and stomps had in 7th, so they whine.

 

This wouldn't be an issue if people weren't so heavily invested in elite armies. Just try smiting a green tide to death...

Edited November 23, 2017 by Thorakitai

[Imperator Deus]

I 'm beginning to wonder lately if GW is trying to pressure us into playing Imperial Soup, lol. The Commissar nerf has me feeling like I'm being pushed into taking Inquisitors for their Ld buff, and if they raise the price of Primaris Psykers to 70 points or whatever, I might as well just take a Space Marine Librarian instead. I play Black Templars so I'm not positive, but I think a non-Primaris Librarian is 70 points. I think he would be a much better value than a 70 point Primaris Psyker since the Librarian can cast two powers per turn on top of the better stat line. It's the fact that the Psyker is only 40 points and already part of the AM list that keeps me taking it. If it gets too close to the cost of a Librarian, why would you take a Primaris Psyker anymore?

[momerathe]

The other issue is that they fix potential problems with a hammer rather than a scalpel.

Yeah, me too. Even just in terms of points cost changes we're seeing some huge swings when a more incremental approach might be better.

 

The Commissar nerf has me feeling like I'm being pushed into taking Inquisitors for their Ld buff, and if they raise the price of Primaris Psykers to 70 points or whatever, I might as well just take a Space Marine Librarian instead.

Hey, take a psyker inquisitor and you get a commissar and a primaris psyker rolled into one!