How to protect Pask?

[Gibbous]

So, I love rocking Pask with a punisher cannon. Grinding advance, Cadian Doctrine, makes the otherwise weak Punisher cannon a nice infantry unit deleter (plus forcing a lot of saves against more hardy targets).

 

The problem comes generally after the first punisher volley and the opponent says, "that unit NEEDS to go now!"

 

His wounds are too high to be able to hide behind bodies. Only thing I'm thinking is a couple of Astropath to -1 to hit, +1 to saves. Maybe a tech priest to heal wounds?

 

Any other ideas out there?

[Halfpint100]

So, I love rocking Pask with a punisher cannon. Grinding advance, Cadian Doctrine, makes the otherwise weak Punisher cannon a nice infantry unit deleter (plus forcing a lot of saves against more hardy targets).

 

The problem comes generally after the first punisher volley and the opponent says, "that unit NEEDS to go now!"

 

His wounds are too high to be able to hide behind bodies. Only thing I'm thinking is a couple of Astropath to -1 to hit, +1 to saves. Maybe a tech priest to heal wounds?

 

Any other ideas out there?

 

These are the reasons I do not take pass and prefer to take 2 normal russes instead.

 

If you do take him, hug cover, hide. the -1 to hit and +1 save powers are good to keep him alive, but any dedicated antitank will probably take him out in turn1

 

Focus on their anti-tank as well, if there is no antitank that can see him, then he cannot get shot

[DrLoveMonkey]

If you do take him, hug cover, hide. the -1 to hit and +1 save powers are good to keep him alive, but any dedicated antitank will probably take him out in turn1

 

I’ve seen this sentiment around a lot and it kind of confuses me. If you’ve got Pask behind cover with a +2 save and -1 to hit, what is this anti-tank everyone else seems to be facing that will easily pop 14 wounds in one turn? That’s an awful lot of lascanon shots required at good BS to put down.

[Tirak]

It's 2 good lascannon shots. Sure if we run averages only we need something to the tune of 12 lascannon shots to put him down, but on table experiance says it's overly optimistic to plan in such a way.

[DrLoveMonkey]

It's 2 good lascannon shots. Sure if we run averages only we need something to the tune of 12 lascannon shots to put him down, but on table experiance says it's overly optimistic to plan in such a way.

Hmmm my Mathhammer brings it closer to 2 with a 1+ save and -1 to hit against lascannons fired by marines. I think at that point its a bit pessimistic to think that you won’t probably need a large amount of AT to ruin him turn one.

[Vel'Cona]

I agree that at least one psyker to keep the shield up (as long as it works, Command Re-rolls are your friend) is critical; I prefer the Primaris Psyker because he grants flexibility with his extra power and can Smite better in a pinch.  Cover is a given as well, assuming there's some good area terrain/blocking terrain to cover up Hand of Steel.  If you were already going to take another LR, it's not a stretch to plump for another Tank Commander to deliver Strike and Shroud! to Pask; this has the benefit of providing a "helper" to issue him the Pound them to Dust! TO.

 

Taking a Super-Heavy or artillery squadron may help as well; for the most part, protecting Pask is really a matter of giving the opponent something just as worrisome (if possible).  This is also why I don't go insane stacking expensive upgrades on him, despite the purported lack of efficiency running stock Heavy Bolter hull/sponson guns implies.

 

Finally, the Enginseer is somewhat expensive but he does deliver an average of 2 Wound healing for Pask every turn.  The problem here is if the opponent can chew through 3+ Save/12 Wounds in one turn, which leaves the Enginseer sort of standing around.  I think the Jury Rigging Strategem is a solid play here, instead; that 1 Wound can push Pask back into another "tier" of BS/Movement, and 1 CP is far cheaper than 50+ points for the Enginseer IMO.

[Tirak]

Well I like to run my calculations against the Onager Dune Crawler. Heavy D3, S10 ap-4 D6 damage where 1 and 2 count as 3. Friend of mine plays Admech with 3 of them and they have a habit of sweeping tanks off the field with ease. One of the reasons I took to the skies.

[FallenSoldiers]

Well I like to run my calculations against the Onager Dune Crawler. Heavy D3, S10 ap-4 D6 damage where 1 and 2 count as 3. Friend of mine plays Admech with 3 of them and they have a habit of sweeping tanks off the field with ease. One of the reasons I took to the skies.

That is wha the Vanquisher should be....

[Vel'Cona]

Well I like to run my calculations against the Onager Dune Crawler. Heavy D3, S10 ap-4 D6 damage where 1 and 2 count as 3. Friend of mine plays Admech with 3 of them and they have a habit of sweeping tanks off the field with ease. One of the reasons I took to the skies.

 

A good counter, until he gets an Icarus Array or two in there

 

But seriously, you're totally correct that, when it comes to armoured assets, your best bet is to accept that sometimes the opponent is just really going to want them gone.  Having a back-up plan is important; in this case, since Pask is going mostly anti-infantry running a Wyvern or 3 (or perhaps a trio of Heavy Weapon Squads with HB) to back him up in case of an untimely demise could be the ticket!

[Tirak]

Actually the Icarus Array isn't as good as the Neutron laser, even against flying targets. The 3-6 damage per hit and the ap-4 vastly outclassed it.

[Gibbous]

I agree that at least one psyker to keep the shield up (as long as it works, Command Re-rolls are your friend) is critical; I prefer the Primaris Psyker because he grants flexibility with his extra power and can Smite better in a pinch.  Cover is a given as well, assuming there's some good area terrain/blocking terrain to cover up Hand of Steel.  If you were already going to take another LR, it's not a stretch to plump for another Tank Commander to deliver Strike and Shroud! to Pask; this has the benefit of providing a "helper" to issue him the Pound them to Dust! TO.

 

Taking a Super-Heavy or artillery squadron may help as well; for the most part, protecting Pask is really a matter of giving the opponent something just as worrisome (if possible).  This is also why I don't go insane stacking expensive upgrades on him, despite the purported lack of efficiency running stock Heavy Bolter hull/sponson guns implies.

 

Finally, the Enginseer is somewhat expensive but he does deliver an average of 2 Wound healing for Pask every turn.  The problem here is if the opponent can chew through 3+ Save/12 Wounds in one turn, which leaves the Enginseer sort of standing around.  I think the Jury Rigging Strategem is a solid play here, instead; that 1 Wound can push Pask back into another "tier" of BS/Movement, and 1 CP is far cheaper than 50+ points for the Enginseer IMO.

 

I've actually run across each of those scenarios in my limited experience. I played some Grey Knights rocking a Knight (I got destroyed that game). It happened exactly as you said though. My opponent focused all of his energies on my Doomhammer, which still took 3 turns, but things quickly folded from there. I wasn't able to do enough damage to the Knight before the DH fell. 

 

I learned to put Pask into cover, always expecting to go second. This significantly helps me keep him alive past the first turn. 

 

I like the additional TC idea, I didn't realize he could order Pask. Even more useful if the Nightshroud fails. 

 

We played an Ork army this past weekend. Opponent lit up Pask first turn with their Tank Busta's. They put six wounds on him, before it was my turn. Used Jury Rigging on my turn to bring him back up a tier, then that 40 shots did work on the Orks in range. I think Pask was able to take out about 28! 

[Halfpint100]

 

If you do take him, hug cover, hide. the -1 to hit and +1 save powers are good to keep him alive, but any dedicated antitank will probably take him out in turn1

 

I’ve seen this sentiment around a lot and it kind of confuses me. If you’ve got Pask behind cover with a +2 save and -1 to hit, what is this anti-tank everyone else seems to be facing that will easily pop 14 wounds in one turn? That’s an awful lot of lascanon shots required at good BS to put down.

To gain a cover save, the vehicle needs to be in area terrain and 50% obscured. Not enough to be just behind it. Also if they have turn 1, no boosts. Just T8, W12. Edited November 21, 2017 by Halfpint100

[TheShredder]

 

If you do take him, hug cover, hide. the -1 to hit and +1 save powers are good to keep him alive, but any dedicated antitank will probably take him out in turn1

I’ve seen this sentiment around a lot and it kind of confuses me. If you’ve got Pask behind cover with a +2 save and -1 to hit, what is this anti-tank everyone else seems to be facing that will easily pop 14 wounds in one turn? That’s an awful lot of lascanon shots required at good BS to put down.

 

 

Bear in mind that you may well be going second - in which case your opponent will have a free turn in which to shoot Pask before he can get any psyker buffs.

[Withershadow]

Yes, and you can use command points to re-roll to seize initiative, so everyone has about a 1/3 chance to seize.  Plus Imperial Guard tends to have more drops than most, so you should be going second more often than not (and you're the one hoping to seize!).  And folks really need to temper their reliance on Mathhammer; just because some hypothetical weapon "averages" 0.1 damage per turn, it doesn't mean it takes 10 of that gun to deal a point of damage.  He can also just as easily die to a pair of lascannons rolling boxcars, and lascannons are far from the scariest weapons out there.  I've only tried Pask one time so far, and he died to a Rapier Laser Destroyer on the first shot of the game.

[Feral_80]

The best way to protect Pask is by leaving it at home. 100% sure he won't be hurt.

 

And you won't miss him. While he is definitely a bargain compared to a Tank Commander, A Tank Commander is *not* the same bargain compared to a normal Leman Russ. Their huge point increase is not worth the BS 3+ and one order, simply because they have zero improvements in survivability over a normal LR. And even more so with Pask, and even if you are lucky, begin first, and manage to shoot once with him and deal a lot of damage. Not going to happen again on next turn.

 

These big juicy units that tempt us with good firepower are a bit of a trap. In reality, it's up to your opponent, not you, to decide whether to allow you to use them or not. You take these units, you help your opponent greatly with a key aspect of the game, i.e. target priority, by offering an obvious, expensive, exposed, and relatively fragile target. 

 

And that's not really what you want. Go for threat distribution instead, it always works one way or another.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Feral_80

[Spyboy]

@USNCenturion If you are facing a melee centric army that would work, probably quite well. However I think what Feral is more concerned about is shooting based armies, or armies that at least have good shooting. Against those Pask is unlikely to live past turn 1 as they do not care how much bubble wrap he has. I know most armies with a decent shooting base I have seen can down a Leman Russ in one turn, maybe not much else in some cases but one Russ for sure.

[Imperator Deus]

 

If you do take him, hug cover, hide. the -1 to hit and +1 save powers are good to keep him alive, but any dedicated antitank will probably take him out in turn1

I’ve seen this sentiment around a lot and it kind of confuses me. If you’ve got Pask behind cover with a +2 save and -1 to hit, what is this anti-tank everyone else seems to be facing that will easily pop 14 wounds in one turn? That’s an awful lot of lascanon shots required at good BS to put down.

 

My Tyranid buddy took out Pask on turn one before I even got my turn. It was mostly those damn Hive Guard! They caused 9 mortal wounds on him, and the two Exocrines finished him off. I've never taken Pask before, because I thought he was too much of a bullet magnet, but I gave him a try since Russes get so many wounds in 8th. I figured he should survive the first couple of turns at least, but nope - I was wrong!

 

He's too expensive to deploy out of sight to protect him. To be able to shoot you'll have to move him in your turn, thus negating the Cadian bonus. He's just too much of a target.

 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but as a character, can’t he be safely hidden once he drops below 10 wounds? That, coupled with the smoke and fire order, has to make a 2+ BS model that can shoot a battle cannon twice while ordering two fellow friends useful against a lot, no? High powered weapons are generally shorter range and can be kept back a bit by your infantry.

I don't think that's how it works. A character only gets to take advantage of meat shields if its Wound characteristic is less than ten. The wounds remaining are irrelevant.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Imperator Deus

[Gibbous]

I'd like to thank everyone for their responses. It has turned into quite the discussion!

 

For some, it seems Pask is too expensive to take. The advice is to leave him at home and try something else. 

 

For others, thank you for guiding me to the answer(s) that I was looking for!

 

For those Pask nay-sayers (lol), I shall thumb my nose at you good sir (for now at least) and figure out how to make him work! You are correct (the nay-sayers) in that Pask is a bullet magnet. Yet IMHO, 12 wounds, with a 3+ save (potentially 2+) is not a soft target. If my opponent is shooting Pask, they aren't paying attention to everyone else! If I spend some resources to keep him alive, so be it. 

 

I believe the biggest hurdle is keeping him alive past the first turn. I am going to plan during deployment to keep him hidden behind buildings, then I can make the 5.99" move out of cover so he can shoot (with grinding advance). Baring flyers or Non-LOS weapons (I think they would be the biggest difficulty), keeping him alive at least until turn 3 is possible.

 

Even if he does die turn one, it will take a significant amount of my opponent's resources to be focused to kill him off. He would be ~10% of a 2k list or 100 PL... although a significant loss, my opponent would be maneuvering 50-60% of their force to take out 10% of mine. While the other 90% of my resources should be ready to counter-attack. 

 

The biggest question is how many resources does one expend in this endeavor, and what is the best way to keep him alive? Use some Psych (Astropath's are cheap, 1 PL, or Primaris 2 PL). Maybe give my opponent something more "juicy" to shoot at...

Again, thank you for all of the responses and insight!

[micahwc]

Bring him with a shadowsword, park him behind the shadowsword on your deployment if you think you are going second. A shadowsword will obscure a leman Russ pretty well.

 

I think the best way to protect him will be to give the opponent too many targets to choose from, unfortunately for that to work you also need to bring/be willing to lose units that are just as damaging as Pask.

[Withershadow]

I don’t understand this suggestion of running Pask with another tank commander to swap orders, when he can issue orders to himself. I wouldn’t consider another tank commander after Pask until I’m hitting 4+ tanks.

[Halfpint100]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but as a character, can’t he be safely hidden once he drops below 10 wounds? That, coupled with the smoke and fire order, has to make a 2+ BS model that can shoot a battle cannon twice while ordering two fellow friends useful against a lot, no? High powered weapons are generally shorter range and can be kept back a bit by your infantry.

The character rule is based on starting wounds

 

2 astropaths and an enginseer would be your best bet to keep him alive. Or bring a bigger target! Shawdowsword has been mentioned which is a great idea. Give them many targets to shoot at.

[Feral_80]

Again this weird idea that 'if they shoot this big juicy target of mine, they are not shooting something else: excellent!'. 

 

It. Does. Not. Work. This. Way.

 

Come on guys, do you really believe this? It's a joke, and a poor one. NO, you will never be happy if they shoot Pask instead of something else, for the simple reason that Pask is exactly the guy you wanted to keep alive in the first place. There are simply models that you *do not* want your opponent to shoot, period. This game is about target priority, and the loss of some targets *will hurt you*, no matter what. Especially if killing that target took no more effort than killing another target, as is for Pask vs a normal LR in your opponent turn 1, if he goes first (ie more often than not). 

 

So the above mantra is a poor way to try to convince yourself that your loss was worth it - well sorry, it wasn't. You can believe the fairy tale if you like it, but it won't help you really.

 

And sure, add an Astropath, no wait, 2 Astropaths, and an Enginseer, to buff Pask and make him slightly harder. And of course you'll want sponsons and a HK missile on him while you are at it, because damn, BS 2+ should be maxed out right? Great, now your 250-pt fire magnet is a 340-pt fire magnet.  And as soon as you'll lose Pask (ie turn 1 anyway, turn 2 at the latest), you'll be left with a useless Enginseer, which sadly is still an overcosted and poor addition to 90% of armies. And you'd better have brought more fire magnets, because I hope you won't be left casting -1 hit on infantry squads.

[TheShredder]

Again this weird idea that 'if they shoot this big juicy target of mine, they are not shooting something else: excellent!'. 

 

It. Does. Not. Work. This. Way.

 

Come on guys, do you really believe this? It's a joke, and a poor one. NO, you will never be happy if they shoot Pask instead of something else, for the simple reason that Pask is exactly the guy you wanted to keep alive in the first place. There are simply models that you *do not* want your opponent to shoot, period. This game is about target priority, and the loss of some targets *will hurt you*, no matter what. Especially if killing that target took no more effort than killing another target, as is for Pask vs a normal LR in your opponent turn 1, if he goes first (ie more often than not). 

 

So the above mantra is a poor way to try to convince yourself that your loss was worth it - well sorry, it wasn't. You can believe the fairy tale if you like it, but it won't help you really.

 

Agreed. It reminds me of the old idea of:

 

'If you include this bad unit in your army, and your opponent shoots it, then they're not shooting at something better!'

 

Sure. So why didn't you include another better unit? That way you're covered even if they don't shoot it.

 

 

And sure, add an Astropath, no wait, 2 Astropaths, and an Enginseer, to buff Pask and make him slightly harder. And of course you'll want sponsons and a HK missile on him while you are at it, because damn, BS 2+ should be maxed out right? Great, now your 250-pt fire magnet is a 340-pt fire magnet.  And as soon as you'll lose Pask (ie turn 1 anyway, turn 2 at the latest), you'll be left with a useless Enginseer, which sadly is still an overcosted and poor addition to 90% of armies. And you'd better have brought more fire magnets, because I hope you won't be left casting -1 hit on infantry squads.

 

This illustrates what I really don't like about Pask (and models like him). You're already paying an inflated price for a Leman Russ chassis (along with the practically mandatory sponsons), and then you end up spending even more points trying to protect it with Astropaths/Primaris Psykers, Enginseers etc. 

 

I appreciate that this comes down to personal preference and playstyle, but I've always preferred to spread out my points as much as possible, so that my army doesn't have any key or lynchpin units.

[CoffeeGrunt]

This is why I personally don't go for key, powerful units in my army. They become the obvious weak point to target, and you end up throwing good money after bad trying to keep them alive.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Don't get snarky because people aren't all lining up to agree with you.

 

I'm just noting the inherent tactical problems with overinvesting in one, big target. The problem is that your opponent is a presumably a sentient human being who, during the game, will take advantage of any weaknesses your army has in order to win.

 

If you like running Pask for fluff or rule of cool, that's fine, but you asked for competitive views on him, and you got them. I run Riptides, Index Venomfexes and Rippers for rule of cool, despite them being flawed to woeful. If you love the unit, run it, and accept that it has glaring weaknesses that mean it won't be the grand slam star you hope for every time it hits the table.

 

Most of all, don't post publicly asking for opinions if you're going to throw shade on anyone who doesn't agree with you.