How to protect Pask?

[TheShredder]

I love the positivity in this forum

 

So to make a long story short, only run Tallarn tanks, Catachan infantry and DKK detachments. Everything else is a waste of points and time, especially tank commanders. Cool.

 

I'm sorry, clearly I must have misinterpreted my own opinion.

[WarriorFish]

I think I've had just about enough of the repeated attitude problems of late. This is not how things work on the B&C, and even less so in the barracks. If you can not disagree with someone politely and with the same respect you would expect in return reconsider your post before submitting. We're talking basic communication skills and I really shouldn't have to be explaining this to anyone here.

 

I don't think it's much to ask at all, and this expectation is clearly explained within the rules of the B&C - the rules everyone here agreed to follow when signing up. If you feel someone is crossing lines it is usually best not to respond, but instead alert the moderation team with a Report. Thanks.

[Chris521]

I like to give Pask a battle cannon and keep him on the cheaper side. At most I'll give him bolter sponsons or a lascannon if my anti tank is a bit light. I've been running 4 tanks; Pask, 2 Commanders, and a regular Russ, usually all with battle cannons.

 

We would all love to put him in his good old Punisher, but he's much easier to keep alive back around his infantry, taking pot shots with the long range cannon.  The two commanders will be some where else on the line ( but maybe close enough for the relic of lost Cadia), while Pask and his buddy are in the middle, screening some commanders ( Warlords and relic holders).

 

Also, it's kind of funny that as we speak, there is a thread on dakka with someone complaining about how OP Pask is. Talking about using tech priest, psykers, and CP to keep him alive, and ignoring the fact that he's created a 300 point bullet magnet.

[Vel'Cona]

I suppose from a pure efficiency standpoint the venerable Knight-Captain does seem lacking.  40 points over a base LR is enough to get another Mortar HWS in (or naked Infantry Squad), so it's definitely an impact on the force.  That being said, I feel that IG is strong enough that not being 100% efficient from a cost analysis perspective is actually OK.  One thought might be to keep Pask as cheap as possible; full HB setup will reduce his footprint (but not nerf his firepower), so that's a possibility.  I also really like Chris521's solution of playing Pask "back" with a Battle Cannon and avoiding optimum tank-deletion range (24" or less); by playing your other LRs further forward (perhaps with Executioners or Punishers) you'll make them a more desirable target.  Deep strikers are a problem, but bubble-wrapping is a legit strategy and few armies can fill a deployment zone like IG.

[Spyboy]

Although this was mentioned earlier, An astropath buffing pask is not a bad idea either. 15 points for a -1 to hit is pretty good. Edited November 22, 2017 by Spyboy

[CrusherJoe]

Just as a thing to consider, I build my Guard armies around a specific damage output measurement:

 

dM/t

 

That's dead Mortarions/turn.

 

My usual Spearhead detachment should reliably generate 1.5-2 dM/t. Now, it doesn't because mathhammer and reality are two different things. But if I can -- from a probability standpoint -- generate 1.5 dM/t you can bet your sweet hot-cross buns I can eliminate any single Leman Russ in a single shooting phase.

 

One of the components in that Spearhead is a Punisher Pask (because I'm not that creative) but I have also learned that he's either going to survive, or not -- and if there's decent AT on the board then I hide him as best I can. That's really all you can do. Jury Rigging helps as well. But the best defense is a good offense -- plan on going second, hide as much as you can, and then bring the pain until he dies. 

 

That's pretty much the Guard battleplan anyway, right? :)

[CoffeeGrunt]

What if you come across an army with no big targets?

[bigmic66]

Simple, target saturation and cover. Rrmeber shroud and shoot and smoke for -2 to hit. I often place a vanilla Russ directly in front leghtways so most stuff can't see him. I play all tanks with a shadowsword so if its left alone it hammers them with the volcano cannon

[Guardsman Bob]

Page 102 Astra Militarum: Ogryn Bodygaurds

 

Handy at six wounds unless your 3+ dice-fu is weak. Keep them cheap Brigade Elite slot fillers.

[Feral_80]

I suggest you have a look at the FAQ.

[Guardsman Bob]

So you’re saying they nerfed a model that isn't a problem. Priceless.

 

Is it just me or does someone over there have an issue with Guard? They don’t seem to pull this level of hate on other armies. Well maybe Necrons with that whole nerfing Res left and right.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Hate? They stopped Ogryns taking Wounds for Tanks and other Ogryns, that's hardly hate.

[TheShredder]

Hate? They stopped Ogryns taking Wounds for Tanks and other Ogryns, that's hardly hate.

 

"Remember, human shield, protect our tanks and planes, too!"

[CrusherJoe]

Ha ha haaaaa....Guard "hate". My Sisters and Thunderwolves would like to have a word with you, sir.   

[Feral_80]

Well the Bodyguard fix was fine I think, their rule was quite obviously a slip in the first place.

 

As for hate, it should go away quickly. It seems to have been reduced a lot already, AM is no longer the overpowered army since other overpowered armies have/will come out.

 

Now they just need to faq thei faq, answer a dozen still ignored issues with the codex, and we'll be just fine. Sigh. Everything must change so that everything stays the same.

[Guardsman Bob]

Hate? They stopped Ogryns taking Wounds for Tanks and other Ogryns, that's hardly hate.

Name one other nerf for every other army that came from left field. This isn’t something as simple as crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s. They didn’t fix some game breaking problem. If anything they basically insured the Knight Commander can remain trash against competent armies. If you can spin that as anything other than hate I’d love to hear it.

[Thorakitai]

 

Hate? They stopped Ogryns taking Wounds for Tanks and other Ogryns, that's hardly hate.

Name one other nerf for every other army that came from left field. This isn’t something as simple as crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s. They didn’t fix some game breaking problem. If anything they basically insured the Knight Commander can remain trash against competent armies. If you can spin that as anything other than hate I’d love to hear it.

It's more that this is GW's standard "balancing" in this edition. Invest time and effort into minor things that barely affect the game. Heavily nerf things related to problems without actually fixing the problems (commissars and morale immune hordes, malefic lords and smite spam and so on) ignore that as usual half the units in the game are worthless (exhibit A: servitors) and pretend actual game breaking problems (to hit modifiers, half the character rules) don't actually exist.

 

I think this stuff just more obvious with Guard because it is both a big codex and one that wasn't thought through.

[Guardsman Bob]

I think this stuff just more obvious with Guard because it is both a big codex and one that wasn't thought through.

For awhile we were getting a very vanilla Codex. Which was upsetting since both 3rd and 4th Imperial Guard Codexes had some flavor in them.

 

One thing I am very greatful for is how we’ve finally gotten something the fan base has been asking for since 2nd Edition which is full regimental rules.

[CoffeeGrunt]

This all seems very melodramatic. As far as 'out of left field' nerfs, I only play Tau, Guard and Tyranids. One hasn't got a Codex, one only just received their's, and one is Guard.

 

I don't follow other armies closely enough to know the details of how GW treats them.

 

I know that Ad Mech are still kinda useless after arbitrarily so not getting access to transports and generally only Mars is solid. I know Death Guard are still awaiting models for this like the baby plague crawler things. I know Space Marines outside of specific builds seem to have been utterly left behind, and I know that Chaos are also seeming a bit meh now.

 

But then even despite being a mediocre player with an unoptimised army, I haven't lost with the new guard Codex yet, against a variety of opponents. I mean are you getting face beaten Bob? It's also the most flavourful and fun Codex for Guard I can remember, to play and play against.

 

I know plenty of other players who would kill to have this kind of thing. I think there were mistakes that needed rectifying, like Ogryns bodyguarding Tanks, Take Cover affecting vehicles and Tallarn outflanking 9 Russes. Presumably I didn't rely on any of these things because it was obvious they were temporary loopholes GW would fill in. They did a similar thing for the Tomb Herald in AoS as they did for the Bodyguard, no one had noticed you could pair two to make an Immortality battery for any Death Hero.

 

The Commissar nerf is fair complaint and I think they'll amend that to something better. I'd argue that they aren't useless, but I wasn't running them before the nerf because my army is spread across the table typically.

[Beams]

As far as "if they shoot these guys, then they aren't shooting those guys!" Idea, that's literally how I play.

 

I play mostly team games. My brother plays mostly guard and I play mostly sisters. Sure we occasionally switch it up, but that's our general go to.

 

Our foolproof plan (that we came up with in 7th, when our armies used to get smashed) is that I rush head first into the enemy, so that the enemy focuses on shooting me. I don't really care if I do any damage, im just tanking for the Squishies.

 

The squishy guard moves up, takes objectives and throws out long range firepower to damage key targets.

 

True, this worked a lot better when dead vehicles became terrain, since a 1000 pts used to get you like 8 Repressors and immolatoes, and it would be an impenetrable wall. But it still works, since it presents them with two terrible choices "Shoot my guys and get bashed by guard" or "shoot at the guard, and get roasted by sisters"

 

To put this in terms of Pask:

If they waste tons of shots shooting at a +1 save, -1 to hit Pask, and kill him, but leave your Rapier Destroyers/Basilisks/Deathstrike/whatever around, maybe it's not a terrible idea? Or if they ignore pssk because he's buffed, then he's ready to rock and reload.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Beams

[Withershadow]

Some interesting numbers being thrown around in here.  A tank commander is 45 points more than a regular Russ.  Pask is 55 points more.  Neither can ride in a Conqueror.  So the cost difference is significant.  

 

However, I still find even one round of improved shooting and getting Strike and Shroud (or the Tallarn move order) on the Tank Commander and his buddy tank with a stratagem to be worth the extra cost.  If we had a buffing model that could grant two tanks smoke cover and give one +1BS, we'd probably pay 45 points for it.  Pask is even better with BS2+ and being able to save you that stratagem point or spread the love to three tanks including himself.

 

Really, what it boils down to is play with proper terrain, assume you're going second, and protect him from the alpha strike.  After the first turn he should have multiple layers of defense to keep him alive for at least another turn or at least suck tons of enemy resources dying.  Usually a couple of turns of firing is enough to pay for himself, and the longer the attrition game goes on, the fewer options the opponent will have to remove him.

[DrLoveMonkey]

What if you used the fact that all the AT will be going into pask as a strategy? Like play really super aggressive with all your other vehicles since you’re positive they’re not going to be targets until pask is dead.

 

Otherwise it looks like if you can put pask behind LoS blocking terrain on the first turn and poke his head out after the first turn of shooting, that might be your best strategy? At which point you order himself to pop smoke and fire, and with your astropaths and cover he’s now a -2 to hit 1+ save Leman Russ, at long range. That is by no means easy pickings. If I’m hitting on 5-6 against a high toughness target with a 1+ I might be thinking about shooting something else.

[Gibbous]

Exactly what I'm thinking LoveMonkey! There are hundreds tactics in this game, and IMO resource expenditure seems to be the king.

 

Just as the thinking goes, "If I don't take Pask I'm getting x which is mo' betta"

 

It isn't a specific strategy, relying on Pask to be dead turn 1... you're correct in that. Giving up those resources, but it's more along the lines, keeping him alive so my opponent IS spending more to kill him, than I'm spending to keep him alive.

 

The first line on my OP isn't if I should take Pask, I'm taking him, I like him. I want to know the most economical/efficient way to keep him alive.

 

At the same time, I'm not building my entire Army around Pask. He is a BIG piece, but def NOT what the army is built around. Who says I'm not rocking 2-3 other LR or a few Manticore?

 

I mean dang it man, I'm not going to fold up shop and quit just because Pask dies! Whatever my opponent has spent focusing his attention on Pask, he will have also left his other units hanging. Plus why couldn't the engineer heal wounds on other vehicles???

 

Two knights and bishop are the same value as a queen!

[Feral_80]

Ah. So in order to make a TC viable you *assume*:

 

To go first, or to seize

To successfully cast -1 hit

To successfully cast +1 save

To have a large los-blocking piece of terrain in the back of your deployment zone, in case you fail to go first anyway

 

That is a lot of assumptions. On the other hand, you are *assured* to be paying a lot of points for the opportunity to maybe meet all of these conditions and make your choice strong. I know where I'd put my bets, but hey, it's a free world. As with all gambles, it might pay off if you are lucky. Just do not expect everybody to share your view about effective ways to spend your points.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Feral_80

[DrLoveMonkey]

Ah. So in order to make a TC viable you *assume*:

 

To go first, or to seize

To successfully cast -1 hit

To successfully cast +1 save

To have a large los-blocking piece of terrain in the back of your deployment zone, in case you fail to go first anyway

 

That is a lot of assumptions. On the other hand, you are *assured* to be paying a lot of points for the opportunity to maybe meet all of these conditions and make your choice strong. I know where I'd put my bets, but hey, it's a free world. As with all gambles, it might pay off if you are lucky. Just do not expect everybody to share your view about effective ways to spend your points.

Who doesn’t play with LoS blocking terrain? I know it’s table dependant but that’s basically a requirement for halfway interesting games. Otherwise it’s one step away from rock ‘em sock ‘em floorhammer.

 

Of course it’s group dependant but my group always plays with stacked containers or walls. As guard you’re deploying last anyway so it’s easy to stick pask behind LoS blocking, in which case I’d say yes at least not a instant loss horrible choice to stick 55 points.