Character duels: Who beats whom (Mathammer)

[b1soul]

Always found WS7 Corax to be odd

[SixOfOne]

It's because when the rules were done Blind still caused 1 test per hit. So he could very easily and consistently make his opponent WS1 (Max 10 attacks at I8 on charge) in which case they may only be hitting him on 6s. So, he didn't really need to be WS8 and it wouldn't have changed anything really when fighting stuff with higher WS due to fighting style. However, 7th came and nerfed blind and he wasn't updated. Hopefully when the AoD rulebook comes out Blind will have been changed again.

Edited December 13, 2017 by SixOfOne

[Zeratil]

Yeah, I think it's possible to show a Primarch's skill with weapons through things other than WS. Corax's modes of attack or Horus's Talon tactic being excellent examples. It's something that would be notably missing from any 8th edition version which is a shame. I may have some individual quibbles but I like that there's a range of WS amongst the Primarchs. I doubt most people's list of who should have what WS would match however.

[SixOfOne]

I wouldn't actually change very much among the Primarchs. I'd make Russ WS8 and I6 to start and nerf his armour, make Perturabo WS7 and Magnus WS6. That's about it though.

[Withershadow]

Is there a summary of results, I dont have the attention span to read all that. I assume Sigi crushed it for the most part, except maybe vs. Custodes? Ive seen that wily bastard hang with Primarchs (and he actually killed my Alpharius once, lol).

[SixOfOne]

I haven't finished it yet, but a general summary would be as follows. Sigismund beats everyone in 1 or 2 rounds (Even a 3++ rerollable Shield-Captain although not a Tribune or Valdor), Sevatar performs badly in a vacuum but will kill most characters in an actual game. Krole is probably the best overall HQ on the list. Abaddon is solid and Hol Beloth is good (Although his ability to ignore the first wound he takes probably won't affect him in duels in an actual game). Endryd Haar is probably in the top 5 and Pollux is definitely up there. Powerfists+variants>Paragon Blades due to lack of EW.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"Sigismund kills Abaddon before Abaddon strikes back."

 

But yet somehow Abbadon eventually killed Sigismund. :(

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

"Sigismund kills Abaddon before Abaddon strikes back."

 

But yet somehow Abbadon eventually killed Sigismund.

 

dont you mean a "relatively fresh" Abaddon kills a 1000+ year old Sigismund?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They are the same age, Abbadon is not any fresher - the novelist portrayed it that way for whatever reason. Chaos fanboys rejoiced.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

They are the same age, Abbadon is not any fresher - the novelist portrayed it that way for whatever reason. Chaos fanboys rejoiced.

yea no.

 

One had existed in the Warp, where times flows differently than it does in real space.

 

and if I remember that duel correctly, Abaddon was carried off by his followers, wounded so badly his status was lied about, and finally the Black Legionnaires would carried him off and saw the state he was in were killed to keep it a secret.

 

And Sigismund’s age did show. It slowed him, the finest duellist ever to wear ceramite, to a pace that was no faster than Abaddon in his hulking Terminator plate. He lacked Ezekyle’s enhanced strength in that great suit of armour, and age and weariness robbed him even further. He was already decorated in the blood of my slain brothers; this was far from his first battle of the day. Were his old hearts straining? Would they fail him now, and burst in his proud chest? Is that how the greatest of Space Marine legends was fated to end?

 

 

‘He wouldn’t die,’ Abaddon said at last, thoughtful and low. ‘He just wouldn’t die.’ I did not need to skim his mind for insight. Just from his tone, I knew what had happened. ‘He baited you. You were lost to rage.’ I saw the muscles of Abaddon’s jaw and throat clench as he ground his teeth. ‘It was over before I knew he had struck me. I couldn’t breathe. I felt no pain, but I couldn’t breathe. The Black Sword was buried to the hilt, like the old man had sheathed it inside my chest.’

 

multiple intentional mentions of how old Sigismund was, and the rest of the chapter are littered with them.

 

 

Im hardly a Chaos fanboy, but that scene was amazing.

 

I think you may need to re-read it, as you've seem to either missed something by accident or deliberately overlooked something.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

[Withershadow]

"Sigismund kills Abaddon before Abaddon strikes back."

 

But yet somehow Abbadon eventually killed Sigismund.

Abaddon killed Sigismund after being super-boosted by Chaos and having Drach'nyen, one of the most powerful daemonic entities that even the Emperor couldn't defeat in his prime. Sigismund, on the other hand, was old as crap. And he still nearly killed Abaddon.

 

 

So Tribune/Valdor being able to kill him seems appropriate, he's on the level of all but the greatest of Custodes, which really speaks to Sigismund's skill level. Interesting about Sevatar, too, although a friend of mine uses him quite often and he always seems to disappoint.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Slips

[bluntblade]

Abaddon didn't have Drach'nyen at the time. Btw fanboys? Oh come on, all the Black Legion were impressed that Sigismund could fight as he did that day. Abaddon needed new internal organs for crying out loud.

[SixOfOne]

Hol Beloth

 

Hol Beloth vs The Nemean Reaver:

 

The Nemean Reaver attacks first with 3 attacks, hitting 2.31 times, wounding 1.7787 times and causing 0.889 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times, causing 1.0375 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth wins in round 3.

 

Hol Beloth vs Eidolon:

 

Both characters strike simultaneously. Eidolon strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 3.3 times, wounding 2.739 times and causing 1.369 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Eidolon outdamages Hol, but Hol wins this fight as he can ignore the first wound he takes in a battle.

 

Hol Beloth vs Erasmus Golg:

 

Both characters strike simultaneously. Golg strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth wins in round 1.

 

Hol Beloth vs Kyr Vahlen:

 

Kyr Vahlen strikes first with 4(5) attacks, hitting 2 (0.5) times, wounding 1.32 (0.415) times, causing 0.66 (0.2075) wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth wins in round 1.

 

Hol Beloth vs Sigismund:

 

Sigismund strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 3.088 times, wounding 2.5637 times and causing 1.9227 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Sigismund wins in round 2.

 

Hol Beloth vs Pollux:

 

Both characters strike simultaneously. Pollux strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 1.75 times, wounding 1.4525 times, causing 0.72625 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 0.68475 wounds after saves.

 

Pollux out damages Hol, but Hol will win this one due to his ability to ignore the first wound he takes.

 

Hol Beloth vs Sevatar:

 

Sevatar strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 3.3 times, wounding 2.178 (0.561 of these rend) times and causing 0.37026 (0.2805 rends) wounds after saves. 

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth wins in the 1st round due to ID.

 

Hol Beloth vs Autek Mor:

 

Autek Mor strikes first with 3 (4) attacks, hitting 1.75 (0.585) times, wounding 1.6975 (0.567) times and causing 0.84875 (0.2835) wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times, causing 1.0375 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth wins in round 3 due to his wound ignoring ability.

 

Hol Beloth vs Khârn:

 

Khârn strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2.64 times, wounding 1.7424 times, causing 0.8712 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth wins in the first round due to ID.

 

Hol Beloth vs Typhon:

 

Typhon strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 1.65 times and causing 0.825 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth wins in the first round due to ID.

 

Hol Beloth vs Abaddon:

 

Both characters strike simultaneously. Abaddon strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 3.3 times, wounding 2.739 times and causing 1.3695 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth wins this due to his ability to ignore the first wound he takes. If not then both characters kill each other in round 1.

 

Hol Beloth vs Loken:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.66 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth wins in 1(2) rounds.

 

Hol Beloth vs Nomus Rhy'tan:

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth wins in the 3rd round of combat.

 

Hol Beloth vs Dynat:

 

Both characters strike simultaneously. Hol Beloth strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Dynat strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth wins in the 1st round of combat.

 

Hol Beloth vs Hvarl:

 

Hvarl strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2.33 times, wounding 2.2067 times, causing 1.10338 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth wins in the 1st round of combat.

 

Hol Beloth vs Endryd Haar:

 

Both characters strike simultaneously. Hol Beloth strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Haar (Round 1) strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.425 times, causing 1.2125 wounds after saves.

 

Haar (Round 2 onwards) strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times, causing 1.0375 wounds after saves.

 

Haar wins in round 2 as he is T5.

 

Hol Beloth vs Jenetia Krole:

 

Krole strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2.33 times (0.7689 ID), wounding 1.79923 (0.7689 ID) times, causing 0.89962 (0.3845 ID) wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Krole wins in round 3 as she strikes before Hol Beloth.

 

TL:DR- Thanks to his ability to ignore the 1st wound he takes, Hol Beloth is very good in a vacuum and he wins almost every fight because of this.  However, this ability is far less likely to actually come up in an in-game challenge as by turn 3 he will have almost certainly taken a wound from somewhere. Despite this though he does have a pretty high damage output and is pretty reliable.

[b1soul]

@ Black Orange

 

One could argue that after spending some time in the Warp, Abaddon was soaking up Chaos energies and becoming stronger, rather than becoming old

 

Sig spent a thousand years aging in realspace and it showed

[Corswain]

@ Black Orange

One could argue that after spending some time in the Warp, Abaddon was soaking up Chaos energies and becoming stronger, rather than becoming old

Sig spent a thousand years aging in realspace and it showed

Maybe. Dante is a few thousand years old and still seems pretty sprightly. Then there’s warp-travel time schenanigans to consider as well as the “functionally immortal” thing. Old? Yes. At his peak? Maybe not. Still good for kicking some butt? Hell yeah!

 

This, to me, is about narrator-bias and lore inconsitency. Doesn’t mean it’s bad, just open to interpretation. In any case, it’s not really relevant to the tabletop as soooo many games and this thread have proven.

 

@ Jarl Kjaran - That from Black Legion? I still haven’t read it. I recognise my failing and will be sure to correct it....

Edited December 20, 2017 by Corswain

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Corswain: yes it is and yes you should correct that

[Walter Payton]

@SixofOne

 

Damn, Hol Beloth is scarier than I thought.  

[SixOfOne]

Nomus Rhy'tan

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs The Nemean Reaver:

 

Both Characters strike simultaneously. The Nemean Reaver has 3 attacks, hitting 1.98 times, wounding 1.3068 times and causing 0.6534 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus (round 1) strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.485 times and causing 0.7425 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus (round 2 onwards) strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 0.99 times and causing 0.495 wounds after saves.

 

The Nemean Reaver wins in round 5.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Eidolon:

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Eidolon strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times, causing 1.0375 wounds after saves.

 

Eidolon wins in round 3.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Erasmus Golg:

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Golg strikes back with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan wins in round 5.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Kyr Vahlen:

 

Both characters strike simultaneously. Kyr Vahlen strikes with 4(5) attacks, hitting 2 (0.5) times, wounding 1.32 (0.415) times, causing 0.66 (0.2075) wounds after saves.

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Kyr Vahlen wins in round 5 (This is even without the Servo-Arm).

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Sigismund:

 

Both characters attack simultaneously. Sigismund strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 3.088 times, wounding 2.5637 times and causing 1.9227 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Sigismund wins in round 2.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Pollux:

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.616275 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.41085 wounds after saves.

 

Pollux strikes back with 3 attacks, hitting 1.75 times, wounding 1.4525 times, causing 0.72625 wounds after saves.

 

Pollux wins in round 5.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Sevatar:

 

Sevatar strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 3.3 times, wounding 2.178 (0.561 of these rend) times and causing 0.37026 (0.2805 rends) wounds after saves. 

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus wins in round 5 as he has EW.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Autek Mor:

 

Nomus (round 1) strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.485 times and causing 0.7425 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus (round 2 onwards) strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 0.99 times and causing 0.495 wounds after saves.

 

Autek Mor strikes with 3 (4) attacks, hitting 1.75 (0.585) times, wounding 1.6975 (0.567) times and causing 0.84875 (0.2835) wounds after saves.

 

Autek Mor wins in the 3rd round of combat.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Khârn:

 

Both characters strike simultaneously. Khârn strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 2.64 times, wounding 1.7424 times, causing 0.8712 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Khârn wins in the 4th round of combat.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Typhon:

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Typhon strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 1.65 times and causing 0.825 wounds after saves.

 

Typhon just wins in 4 rounds.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Abaddon:

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Abaddon strikes back with 4 attacks, he hits 3.3 times, wounds 2.739 times and causes 1.3695 wounds after saves.  

 

Abaddon wins in round 3.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Loken:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.66 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Loken loses without his 'back from the dead ability' but wins if you count it as an additional wound.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Hol Beloth:

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth wins in the 3rd round of combat.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Dynat:

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Dynat strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Dynat wins in round 5 as he has 4 wounds.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Hvarl:

 

Both characters strike simultaneously. Nomus (Round 1) strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus (Round 2) strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Hvarl strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 2.33 times, wounding 2.2067 times, causing 1.10338 wounds after saves.

 

Hvarl wins in 3 rounds.

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Endryd Haar:

 

Nomus (round 1) strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.485 times and causing 0.7425 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus (round 2 onwards) strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 0.99 times and causing 0.495 wounds after saves.

 

Haar (Round 1) strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 3.3 times, wounding 3.201 times, causing 1.6005 wounds after saves.

 

Haar (Round 2 onwards) strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 3.3 times, wounding 2.739 times, causing 1.3695 wounds after saves.

 

Haar wins this one in round 3 (Almost in round 2)

 

Nomus Rhy'tan vs Jenetia Krole:

 

Krole strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2.33 times, wounding 1.79923 times, causing 0.89962 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus (Round 2) strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Krole wins in round 4.

 

TL:DR- Nomus Rhy'tan looks unimpressive from this, but thanks to him having EW the majority of these fights are actually relatively close. Concussion never matters though, it's more of a nice bonus than anything else. That being said, Nomus does ultimately lose most of these fights as 3 attacks really aren't enough to carry him through. His main strength lies in the fact that he's a very good chaplain with EW. Ideally you'd put him with a unit of Firedrakes to grant them Zealot and then watch as they murder almost everything in melee (I can't think of much that will survive this except Hetaeron Guard with shields).  

[b1soul]

@ Corswain

 

Dante is of the line of Sanguinius, which is known to be extremely long-lived, even by SM standards (consistent with the BA's vampire theme). Dante is at least 1,500 years old and still going fairly strong. On the other hand, Sigismund is of the line of Dorn.

 

I think BA and non-BA gene-lines are incomparable in the area of longevity and late-life vigour. IIRC, there are 500 to 600 year old Ultramarines who have essentially been de-commissioned.

 

Sigismund's tremendous will allows him to survive and fight for over a millenium, and for any non-BA Astartes, that lengthy service is incredible. By the time he meets Abaddon, he almost seems like the SM equivalent of Old Man Logan. Still very lethal but clearly past prime.

Edited December 25, 2017 by b1soul

[Corswain]

Yeah. I don’t take the age thing very seriously. Sigismund is old at 1000, Iacton Cruze is supposed to be old at less than 200 years old, Dante is going strong at several thousand years old. No consistency = no valid argument either for or against for me.

 

As I said though, not really relevant to mathammer. Or my enjoyment of the setting. It’s just one of those things that has no real meaning to me.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Corswain

[bluntblade]

Damn, I thought Dante was only 1200-1500. Crazy old but viable for a vampire god of war.

[Slips]

Bros, this thread is about mathhammer; keep it as such.

[Droz_64]

I wouldn't actually change very much among the Primarchs. I'd make Russ WS8 and I6 to start and nerf his armour, make Perturabo WS7 and Magnus WS6. That's about it though.

 

Why would Perturabo get WS7? At WS8, he's fine. In addition, his fluff makes him out to be a great fighter, not only as a general, but also as a soldier. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'd say because on top of being an excellent force multiplier, his high weapon skill combined with the hammer and 3++ make him absurdly annoying to fight, even with other primarchs. He's expensive sure, but turn 1 reserves, deepstriking termis, bombardments and a care package of support wargear, alongside the normal sire of the Legion buffs kind of make up for that cost. A more offensively focused primarch should have a bit more of a chance to do some damage before they get crippled by his hammer.

 

I think he's fair because he only whacks characters/tanks super hard; fulgrim is way undercosted for his utility and great stats

[SixOfOne]

In general, Fulgrim and Dorn are slightly undercosted. Although Dorn wasn't when he was originally released. Fulgrim doesn't need that much of a change when you consider that he only has a 5++ against shooting and is thus the most fragile Primarch against shooting. I would also argue that Perturabo is has never had fluff that shows him as a better individual fighter than Corax or Vulkan. He's a good soldier and scientist, but is never considered a brilliant duellist/fighter or tactician outside of what every Primarch can accomplish.