Leman Russ Tanks vs Leman Russ Tank Commanders

[TheShredder]

I'm curious as to whether people prefer regular Leman Russ tanks or Tank Commanders?

 

I ask partially because it's now possible, via Supreme Command Detachments and such, to field exclusively Tank Commanders (with no need for any regular Russes at all). Also, I've seen some people say that Tank Commanders aren't worth it, whilst others see them as having basically replaced the regular Russ.

 

So which do you think is better and why?

[Feral_80]

Eh, I'll pretty much copy-paste my reply to the other thread on Pask, which is surprisingly similar.

 

I never take Tank Commander. Waste of points. They are *not* a bargain compared to a normal Leman Russ. Their huge point increase is not worth the BS 3+ and one order, simply because they have zero improvements in survivability over a normal LR. And even more so with Pask, and even if you are lucky, begin first, and manage to shoot once with him and deal a lot of damage. Not going to happen again on next turn.

 

These big juicy units that tempt us with good firepower are a bit of a trap. In reality, it's up to your opponent, not you, to decide whether to allow you to use them or not. You take these units, you help your opponent greatly with a key aspect of the game, i.e. target priority, by offering an obvious, expensive, exposed, and relatively fragile target. 

 

And that's not really what you want. Go for threat distribution instead, it always works one way or another.

 

 

It's pretty much the same reason why Veterans are not popular this edition. Only, Tank Commanders are even more huge an investment. If there is a unit that does the same job and has the same survivability at a lower cost, you'll want to take this unit. The 'upgraded' version is just a luxury that often you can't afford.

[Halfpint100]

Quantity beats quality in this addition. I would rather have 2 barebone russes than one tooled up tank commander

[duz_]

Not running a cadia detachment I like my punishers to be piloted by a commander for BS3+ and to give my plasmacutioner re-rolls 1's

 

Works well its effectively a double threat for my opponent to deal with

[librisrouge]

I tried four tank Commanders against ‘nids recently and going from hitting on 4s to hitting on 3s with 1s rerolled was huge against and army that has easy access to -1 (or more) to hit. I’m not saying I’m hands down on the Tank Commander train, but my demolishers did noticeably more work.

 

Against a more shooty army...we’d see. Might work out differently.

[Withershadow]

Tank commanders can be worth the premium if you leverage their command ability (using a stratagem for additional order if need be). Duz’s plan of a TC punisher for more accurate dakka, and an Executioner receiving orders is a great example.

 

In general, try to avoid over investing into a single target.

[lash144]

I never take Tank Commander. Waste of points. They are *not* a bargain compared to a normal Leman Russ. Their huge point increase is not worth the BS 3+ and one order, simply because they have zero improvements in survivability over a normal LR. And even more so with Pask, and even if you are lucky, begin first, and manage to shoot once with him and deal a lot of damage. Not going to happen again on next turn.

 

Well that's not entirely right if you think about the Tallarn tank commanders.

 

You can shoot and use their order to get out of los.

[Halfpint100]

There are some good points here. If you have multiple tank commanders it stops them getting wiped turn 1, since you have so many.

 

Fits with my quantity ethos

[Feral_80]

 

I never take Tank Commander. Waste of points. They are *not* a bargain compared to a normal Leman Russ. Their huge point increase is not worth the BS 3+ and one order, simply because they have zero improvements in survivability over a normal LR. And even more so with Pask, and even if you are lucky, begin first, and manage to shoot once with him and deal a lot of damage. Not going to happen again on next turn.

Well that's not entirely right if you think about the Tallarn tank commanders.

 

You can shoot and use their order to get out of los.

 

 

Well that's assuming you play on a table with plenty of huge line-of-sight blocking terrain, which is not so common. Quite a gabmle.

 

And yes, there are a few, not exactly common situations in which a Tank Commander can be used effectively. E.g. against a non shooty army. But after seeing C:Tyranids, and having seen even index Orks Tank Bustaz, is there anything like a non-shooty army around anyway? I'm not so sure.

[OnboardG1]

I think a TC actually has more options in a smaller point game, where the amount of AT fire thrown at him is going to be smaller and easier to mitigate with something like a single astropath. In a larger game I'd run him cheap or not at all. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

I personally run one with a Punisher alongside an Executioner sometimes. He can either buff himself to burn through an Infantry unit, or allow the Executioner to re-roll 1s when it goes full ham to mitigate it hurting itself. The Tallarn Order has also come in handy on occasion for getting short-ranged guns in range, or peeking around cover, firing, then retreating.

 

I wouldn't replace Russes with TCs entirely, though. It's a lot of points for +1BS and Orders, even as Tallarn.

[Vel'Cona]

I'd argue it depends on what you want the tank to do.  I don't think TC are worth spamming as the sole option, as they get expensive very quickly.  On the other hand, having 1 per standard LR is a nice balance with the Tank Orders; for example, using a TC in Punisher as anti-infantry (where his BS 3+ will go further) and supporting an Executioner or Battle Tank w/ Tank Orders (for the re-rolls, etc.) I find to be a balanced setup.  Again, when you take a more expensive version of a model you can expect it to be public enemy number one, so plan ahead and don't make the TC your linchpin model.

[Tyr13]

As others have said, I dont feel running all-TCs is a good idea, though one or two might be worth it if youve got lots of other tanks around. And running them as the HQ in a LR-spearhead is obviously seriously fluffy, so that gets bonus points. :P

[iceman2160]

I have two artillery spearheads, each with a demolisher tank commander. These run the Catchan doctrine. I also have five tank spearheads (one TC and three other tanks each). Plus two additional tank commanders running the Valhallan doctrine. I think that running Leman Russ spearheads with four tanks each balances the cost of the tank commander and need to protect him with the ability to order the tank in best position to protect your army.

[Chris521]

I touched on this a bit in my Leman Russ thread a week ago.  I proposed giving the tank commander an additional order as well as giving normal tanks a way to get bs 3+ (for a large price but still less than a commander).  It makes much more sense to have a tank order both himself and another tank under his command (Pask would order 2 others). 

[micahwc]

I have thus far only run them as tank commanders and I have been really happy with them. Punishers are nasty at BS3+ and re-rolling ones. I have not lost a Leman Russ in the first turn yet playing against Grey Knights, Blood Angels, and Inquisition.

 

My other army is Chaos Marines, so when I play guard I feel spoiled for points and I don't mind the upcharge for better ballistic skill and tank orders.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Well you just specified three armies that aren't really known for long range firepower to be fair. That's like noting your Guardsmen perform well in CQC versus Fire Warriors.

[micahwc]

I can't change my local meta. It's just what my opponents have brought to the table. In my experience, the commander upgrade has been worth it every time.

[bigmic66]

I always run a sprinkle of tc. Pask is amazing in a tank army. He allows you to hit stuff normal tanks are inefficient with.

 

Hitting fliers for example on 3s. I also will open up with him first and tag a primarch/super heavy then use overlapping fields strategum to buff shadowsword. The tank orders he hands out to normal russes with pound them to dust also makes them way more effective.

 

If you can't protect him past t1 then you're doing it wrong.

[bigmic66]

Not to mention the movement shenanigans from move orders on tanks allow you to push board mid game. I think its more complicated than plus 40pts for +1bs.

[Orkinstein]

Can TC order themselves after codex? On the other hand, TC can let a Leman Russ tank with Objective Secured move 10"+D6"+10"+D6" is amazing. It will move as fast as a flyer and in Chapter Approved flyer cannot control a objective anymore. BTW, after Chapter Approved, IG will not always go second... means that TC have more chances to do something.   

[Halfpint100]

Can TC order themselves after codex? On the other hand, TC can let a Leman Russ tank with Objective Secured move 10"+D6"+10"+D6" is amazing. It will move as fast as a flyer and in Chapter Approved flyer cannot control a objective anymore. BTW, after Chapter Approved, IG will not always go second... means that TC have more chances to do something.   

 

There is nothing in the Codex saying they cannot. So yes the can