CA GK points changes

[Danarc]

 

A this point maybe the TLHB becomes a better choice?

At this point, T'au becomes a better choice.

Awesome!!!!

We need antitank so razor TLLC probably it is better with purgators since our stormraven now is too expansive?

[Riddlesworth]

So for the same price as 4 paladins, you get 5 terminators...

 

Except the paladins still have more wounds, more attacks and are out precisely 1 storm bolter.....

 

Still useless

[TheMostGood]

 

Space Marine Terminators are 26 points.

 

26.

To be fair, Space Marine Terminators also pay for their close combat weapons, while Grey Knight Terminators effectively have that cost baked in.

 

Awhile back we had a thread that discussed the GKT cost compared to SMT cost. 

 

The fact that GKT get psychic powers/defense, all grenades, storm bolters / melee weapons (varying degrees of effectiveness), and advantages against deamons is apparently not note worthy when considering cost differences. 

 

I guess it is cathartic to vent your frustrations though. 

 

Also, unless I have my math wrong, GKT are 43 points with storm bolter and melee weapon. SMT are 40 points with storm bolter and power fist. Is this still not a fair price difference? 

Edited November 25, 2017 by TheMostGood

[Capt. Mytre]

 

 

Space Marine Terminators are 26 points.

 

26.

To be fair, Space Marine Terminators also pay for their close combat weapons, while Grey Knight Terminators effectively have that cost baked in.

 

Awhile back we had a thread that discussed the GKT cost compared to SMT cost. 

 

The fact that GKT get psychic powers/defense, all grenades, storm bolters / melee weapons (varying degrees of effectiveness), and advantages against deamons is apparently not note worthy when considering cost differences. 

 

I guess it is cathartic to vent your frustrations though. 

 

 

It doesn't really matter. There's massive internal overlap between unit types, that needs to be fixed. It's also fine for some armies to have superior versions of the same thing, as long as the overall army balance is correct due to their army traits and auxiliary structures that buff them.

 

Anyway, regular SM players don't take terminators at all, because they suck. They die too quickly and often fail to actually make it into combat. Imagine where that leaves GK.

[Corvus Fortis]

To tell the truth no point cost reduction will save Terminators. And if they are to cheap then stikes will become useless just like in 7th. It is highly unlikely GW will make great changes in Rules, so the best and yet possible way I see is adding unique stratagems. However, considering GW does not even see how overpriced is Psycannon, there is, I guess, no hope.

[Capt. Mytre]

To tell the truth no point cost reduction will save Terminators. And if they are to cheap then stikes will become useless just like in 7th. It is highly unlikely GW will make great changes in Rules, so the best and yet possible way I see is adding unique stratagems. However, considering GW does not even see how overpriced is Psycannon, there is, I guess, no hope.

 

There are a number of issues with them, mainly they aren't all that tough/survivable and they struggle to get into CC, where they need to be to do anything.

 

You can fix the first by having a 2 dice save or a having 5 toughness (which won't happen due to gravis armour).

The second you either allow them to DS closer for a guaranteed charge - or you give them what I want, a free D6" move after any deepstrike.

 

You probably don't need both of these, especially if you can get into CC.

 

Such a shame that the rules team can't balance for in the slightest.

[Danarc]

 

 

 

Space Marine Terminators are 26 points.

 

26.

To be fair, Space Marine Terminators also pay for their close combat weapons, while Grey Knight Terminators effectively have that cost baked in.

Awhile back we had a thread that discussed the GKT cost compared to SMT cost.

 

The fact that GKT get psychic powers/defense, all grenades, storm bolters / melee weapons (varying degrees of effectiveness), and advantages against deamons is apparently not note worthy when considering cost differences.

 

I guess it is cathartic to vent your frustrations though.

 

Also, unless I have my math wrong, GKT are 43 points with storm bolter and melee weapon. SMT are 40 points with storm bolter and power fist. Is this still not a fair price difference?

nope, in my opinion. Because storm bolter and power fist should be compared to storm bolter and hammer.

[Servant of Dante]

It seems that no one is happy about CA points changes except Nurgle and Mech.

Well, I’m happy with the changes to Sisters, they were already decent (which is as much as I ever wish for) and the Exorcist got a nice price drop so maybe it’ll be playable now :P

 

As for GK yeah I think there’s a pattern of them ignoring your army, though I find the comments that they’re just making new toys powerful strange considering that IG and Eldar are considered quite good and haven’t had much in the way of new releases.

 

On a related note, since you hardly have to run troops if you don’t want to, would a simple points drop make Terminators a choice over paladins, without making paladins a non-choice?

[Capt. Mytre]

 

It seems that no one is happy about CA points changes except Nurgle and Mech.

Well, I’m happy with the changes to Sisters, they were already decent (which is as much as I ever wish for) and the Exorcist got a nice price drop so maybe it’ll be playable now

 

As for GK yeah I think there’s a pattern of them ignoring your army, though I find the comments that they’re just making new toys powerful strange considering that IG and Eldar are considered quite good and haven’t had much in the way of new releases.

 

On a related note, since you hardly have to run troops if you don’t want to, would a simple points drop make Terminators a choice over paladins, without making paladins a non-choice?

 

 

 

While you may "hardly" have to run troops this edition for most armies, for GK it pretty much stops us getting 6cp+ in a 2k game if we don't run the battalion detachment.

 

You have to remember that terminators are still performing poorly this edition, across all armies for the most part. This is mainly because of survivability issues and being not being able to get into CC. How I see it is that GK terminators should be the choice for tough "troops", performing similarly to the current Paladins. Paladins would then be moved to becoming a single elite squad of absolute devastation. They would be made for killing something particularly nasty - think Greater Demons, Knights, Primarchs etc

[Seizeman]

There's no reason a terminator of any kind should cost more than 30 points (gear included) in this edition. The 2+ armor save is not great compared to a 3+ and the invulnerable is literally useless because of how ap works now. In exchange for that, they are slower and far more vulnerable to multidamage weapon. They should cost less than two tactical marines, and tactical marines are already overcosted.

 

An eldar shining spear has triple the movement, flying, twice the firepower, twice the melee power, better survivability and access to better buffs and better stratagems yet they cost 31 points. There's just no way we can compete in this game right know.

 

With the recent codexes power creep, grey knights have become literally unplayable, and it's going to become worse with every new codex release. We also know GW does not care and won't fix the issue, so the only possible solution I've found is to just quit the game.

[Servant of Dante]

Going of what Mytre said, it might be interesting to focus Paladins into higher damage, lower attacks type weapons while giving Terminators Superior anti hoard weapons.

 

I’m guessing this should be possible with just changed to options and point adjustments, and would let both units serve different roles and compete less for the same list space.

 

Granted, I don’t play GK and this isn’t super on topic . . .

[Holier Than Thou]

There's no reason a terminator of any kind should cost more than 30 points (gear included) in this edition. The 2+ armor save is not great compared to a 3+ and the invulnerable is literally useless because of how ap works now. In exchange for that, they are slower and far more vulnerable to multidamage weapon. They should cost less than two tactical marines, and tactical marines are already overcosted.

 

An eldar shining spear has triple the movement, flying, twice the firepower, twice the melee power, better survivability and access to better buffs and better stratagems yet they cost 31 points. There's just no way we can compete in this game right know.

 

With the recent codexes power creep, grey knights have become literally unplayable, and it's going to become worse with every new codex release. We also know GW does not care and won't fix the issue, so the only possible solution I've found is to just quit the game.

While I've not officially quit, I am finding it very, very difficult to motivate myself to even ask my mates for a game because I just think, what's the point?

[Capt. Mytre]

Going of what Mytre said, it might be interesting to focus Paladins into higher damage, lower attacks type weapons while giving Terminators Superior anti hoard weapons.

 

I’m guessing this should be possible with just changed to options and point adjustments, and would let both units serve different roles and compete less for the same list space.

 

Granted, I don’t play GK and this isn’t super on topic . . .

 

I'd still give them a high number of attacks (4 ea?), just incentivise them to attack high cost elite targets via special rules such as rerolls on vehicles/monsters or gain +1 damage verse targets with 6 wounds or higher.

 

Basically I just want them to be fluffy. They should absolutely stomp face - for the right price.

[Corvus Fortis]

Paladins really need only one rule - bodyguard, like Lychguard or Ogryn. It will make them elite bodyguard unit that provides survivability to Draigo, Voldus, etc. Add an apothecary to heal those wounds - perfect. This make Paladins a unit with its own role different from terminators one. And again, termiantors are not bad unit. Paladins and Strikes are just better ones. The very same reason chaos and space marines don't use their own a lot. Why to make a terminator base-list and micro-manage it when you can take Girlyman with lascannon spam and just point at a target you want to remove? I've seen some terminator based SM lists in tournaments. I don't how they did, but the fact someone taking them shows a lot. In short, terminators are not bad unit, it is just stuck between strikes and paladings. And unless you do not like them, there is no point to play them.

 

Also, do not forget that GW keeps in mind that we are anti-demon force in the first place. And we are already can destroy any demonic force except, perhaps, brimstore cancer or slaaneshi spam. Sad is the fact they do not bother to balance this with rule changes. They simply transfered our heavy weapons, for example, without thinking how they worked in 7th. Psycannon was anti-light AV because of how vehicles worked in 7th. To make it AV in 8th they had to give it 2 dmg. Heavy psycannon is nice at killing Rhinos and Dreadnoughts because of 2 dmg. Psilencer was gamble weapon to kill Monsters. It was only ranged force weapon type. And now force weapons are d3 dmg, but there are a lot other weapons with multiple damage. So what's the point? It became AV as a result.

 

We are just not popular enough for GW to care about us."Buy our new supermarines and nurgle guys", that's it.

[Trevak Dal]

Well again the points would be okay if they added an extra attack for everything across the board for GK.

[Prot]

I’ve tried to show people through my batreps the reason Termies don’t work overall. I have been doing this to show that the extra wound(s) do not really convert into anything on the table top.

 

I find people that don’t play the game get hung up on 2+ and 2 wounds. In fact back in the index days I think they did feel a bit better.

 

The best example I can show people on this forum is in my Ork batreps. Here you have an army that I literally raked in 7 th Edition. Now it’s very different and Termies are actually a poor choice. I can’t write all the reasons out, but let’s take two very obvious examples that have flipped the table.

 

First one is boys with big choppas. In 7 th they bounced. In 8 th the -1 hurts and each wound is 2 damage. Second example is Tank Bustas. These guys really were laughable to GK in 7 th, but now that -2 does effect my armour, and the three damage means a dead Paladin on one unsaved 4+. That same weapon in 7th bounced off the same model.

 

That’s a combination of 8 th Edition changes plus escalating damage modifiers coming out with each codex.

 

Another big reason is mortal wounds. They’re getting more plentiful and they don’t care what your cost per wound is. This is a big motivator behind spam, and a big detractor from any expensive low wound model.

 

This is why cheap Terminators won’t work. We’re very early in 8 th and they are already a bottom feeder. 5” move, no special ability, and 8 th makes their high end armour modifiable by anything, even fire.

 

Cheaper Termies won’t fix it. They need a rule fix. Right now the best Terminators I’ve played in the game are Chaos, but it has little to do with the armour. Instead it’s because they are full of combiplas, buffed by Abaddon, or a Sorc, and with Mark of Slaanesh, to fire twice per turn.

[Danarc]

I agree. Termys don’t have any role in 8 ed. Nevertheless without a rules changing (that almost every GK unit needs at this time) according to your analysis, a GK termy should cost 5 point more than a PAGK for +1 attack, 5point more for +1 wound, 2 point more forr +1 armour and 2 point less for -1 movement. 29 points plus wargear. And, as previously explained, they still remain a suboptimal choice. It is better to have more PAGK (for more stormbolter shots) than less termy.

 

And this is terribly sad. I started GK for the possibility of playing only termy. The idea of a full-termy army and the terror it causes to the enemy. Now termy is a useless choice, imagine a full-termy army.

 

But I don’t think that GK now are unplayable. But it will be very hard to play with.

[Gentlemanloser]

Make GKT 26 points like SM terminators and no one would ever use Strikes again.

 

That's why I've always said point adjustments won't fix the problems.

 

Our units need to be distinct choices. Not nearly identical versions of each other.

 

But with no rules in CA we have no option but to wait for our next Codex.

 

However long that might be...

 

Sad times. And 8th had revitalised 40k for my mates.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Sn4k30r]

Everyone arguing about the Point costs for terminators....good or bad they arent going to take a place on troop choice while we have 1 of the best troops choices in the game the Strike squads...No point reduction -rules for Purifiers or purgation etc.... And instead some point reduction they make Razorbacks and Stormavens cost more? same for psycannons too... its almost anything GKs player use... I just started GKs and that s@ascks a bit... 

[the jeske]

yeah, for someone who already had an army this is bad news, but if someone started with the codex, saw how lower tier it is, bought stuff anyway [expecting a buff in the yearly update book], and got this, it can be a shocker. And becase bad armies have smaller communities the chance of people being vocal enough for GW to hear is 0. Bad times to start GKs.

[Sn4k30r]

i play CSM and SM, i started GKs due to GMNDKs . I believe the 1st Turn alpha strike make this codex competitve despite the low model count....Now everytime they nurf Ravens-razorbacks...they make lower units on Codex work.... Strike squads can never be replaced by terminators...or purifiers or purgations they do their job cost cheap.others give nothing more extra points no good weaponry...purifier flame joke etc...  

[the jeske]

That is not really how it works. If you nerf good things in a codex that has few good units, the bad things don't suddenly become good. Worse if those good things also happen to exist in books that have not just them as good stuff, then your suddenly in a situation where one dude has to play with bad stuff and nerfed stuff, and another just switchs a build or replaces a unit or two. This type of nerfs actually hurt weaker factions the most.

 

 

all in all it comes down to one thing and one thing only. The GK codex was writen bad, and not because of points imbalances or over powering unit X. The codex is bad, in the same way many chaos books were bad, it is just not worth to take 4-5 units that are inefficient and clones of each other. To make the book good [or at least fun to try out in a casual setting], each of the GK units needs some sort of usable special rule .imagine terminators could drop 6" from enemy, purgators had some rule that makes people actually want to run GK heavy weapons [heck give them the double tap rule as psychic power or something]. Want puris to be short range smite machines? make them good in melee and make it actually possible to get in to melee/casting range of their flame attack. Right now GK are in the same state csm were for years. Someone streamlined their codex, then build another one based on the streamlined version, then changes came... and were done based on the streamlined version. IMO unless something ground breaking happens[new primaris GK models, changes of that scale], it is going to be really hard to get something out of GKs.

[Gentlemanloser]

That.

[Servant of Dante]

Just putting this out there: GK aren’t good, and in a forma competitive environment it seems they’ll stay that way for the foreseeable future. However, either one person or this forum as a group could write up a set of errata/revised datasheets/whatever for GK to try and fix the issues with the faction. Even if you never play with said rules it can still give you something engaging to do with GK rules.

[skarn]

I think perhaps that GW knows full well that GK aren't good, and that they aren't supposed to be. GK primaris are only a matter of time, and GW doesn't want people hanging onto the old models when the new ones are good to go.