Blight Hauler or not Blight hauler that is the question

[HeresyBeliever]

Grav Bombard Leviathan went up 30 points in CA.

Not in the hellforged wargear section.

So the chaos is as it is. It's was only just usable at 339, 369 is a hard sell tbh

[Ishagu]

Ahh interesting. So just a nerf for the loyalists...

[Wolf Lord Loki]

IMHO two important things to remember is that the Blight-hauler:

• Does not have a degrading profile, while staying fairly resilient. Once the PBC starts taking damage, you're hitting on 5+.
• Ignores the penalty for moving and firing its heavy weapons, while the PBC hits on 5+ if you move it, and 6+ once it takes damage; the Blight-hauler is always hitting on 4+ (3+ if you have the Tri-Lobe)

I think they fill different roles, my main question is whether or not the Blight-hauler does what it's advertised as (i.e. "fill the role that Havocs or Obliterators might in other Traitor Legions"). It certainly has anti-tank capabilities with the multi-melta and the missile launchers, but the PBC can also have entropy cannons that are essentially lascannons, plus the mortar which does have the tasty No-LOS-Required benefit.

I think im more interested in the blight haulers rather than the plague burst. Mainly for the reasons highlighted above.

Also I may be wrong, feel free to correct me if I am, but doesnt the plague burst mortar only do d6 shots meaning you still have to roll to hit.

 

If you have a bad turn (ie behind a wall firing indirectly and cant shoot anything else) thats a really big waste in points.

 

However even if the little spud (blight hauler) misses all its shots it can still have a supporting roll shrouding the nearby units in cover. That makes it a better investment in points in my mind

[Wayniac]

I've given this a bit more thought, here are my musings:

 

As of Chapter Approved, the Plagueburst Crawler is 146 points for the Plagueburst Mortar and 2x Entropy Cannons (I don't think the Rothail Volley Gun is worth taking; you want longer range so it doesn't have to move). 

 

The Myphitic Blight-Hauler is 142 points for its locked configuration of Multi-melta and Missile Launcher (and Bile Spurt but that's largely irrelevant I think). 

 

A Helbrute with Lascannon and Missile Launcher is 147 points for roughly the same statline as the Blight-Hauler (again, ignoring the Bile Spurt and its Gnashing Maw), minus the invulnerable and Disgustingly Resilient, but has 3+ BS and also ignores movement penalties (so is as reliable as 3 Blight-Haulers to get the 3+ BS).  Also gets an additional strong anti-tank shot from the TL Lascannon, while the Blight-Hauler wants to be within 12" to get the bonus from its Multi-Melta.  Howver, the Helbrute falls behind the Blight Hauler within 12" as the Blight Hauler has its extra attacks from the Bile Spurt, and is better in melee than an anti-tank Helbrute due to the Gnashing Maw.

 

A Helbrute equipped the same as the Blight-Hauler (again, minus the Bile Spurt and Gnashing Maw), so Multi-Melta and Missile Launcher is only 124 points.

 

The Blight-Hauler also has the weird place of wanting to be up close (due to the Multi-melta and Bile Spurt), but is a fast moving vehicle in an otherwise slow army, that it also provides cover for if they are close to it.

 

So going off of this, what I think a good rule of thumb might be this:

 

* If you only want anti-tank, the Helbrute with TL Lascannon and Missile Launcher is better than the Blight Hauler; longer range and you don't need to take 3 to get the more reliable shots (although 2-3 would still be nasty)

 

* If you want a jack-of-all-trades unit that has versatility, then I think the Blight-Hauler starts to shine; it has anti-tank (slightly less than the Las/ML Helbrute), it's relatively tanky so will divert enemy fire and it has the cover bonus that is IMHO a cherry on top; you should not try to always have it, but if you can get it then it's nice.  Unfortunately I think being a "jack of all trades" drops its usefulness when talking about "competitive" since you really want to specialize, and it does not, since the Crawler is tankier and the Las/ML Helbrute is more reliable at anti-tank.  That's not to say it's bad, but it kind of sits in between as a mobile weapons platform that can also absorb shots.  The 4+ BS really hurts it here, I think.  If it was 3+ (i.e. you didn't need 3 of them) it might push ahead.

 

* If you want more resilience, then the Crawler shines.  The thing with the Crawler is that it seems to be in a weird spot because it has mixed weapon types which is normally a no-no; the mortar doesn't require LOS so you want to park it behind a building or other terrain piece and bombard the enemy, but the rest of its weapons do and if you move out to take a shot, you're hitting on 5s.  Using it as a main tank still lets you target things that you don't have LOS to, but it's not an artillery platform like, say, a Basilisk or Griffon is where you park it in some ruins and it never moves.  You want it to have clear shots to targets, and use the LOS ignoring mortar to make it so enemies can't hide, rather than so you can hide.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Wayniac

[Panzer]

It's worth mentioning that the Blight Hauler is a LOT more durable than the Helbrute. Helbrutes often have the problem to get shot off the table turn one unless you take multiple ones while the Blight Hauler doesn't just have the same armor, it also has a 5++ and Disgustingly Resilient so it takes a considerable amount more firepower to destroy it.

I think the Blight Haulers durability would definitely be the selling point of it over a Helbrute for me.

[Gaerolth]

Don't forget that while the Blight Hauler does provide cover for your army if it dies it has a chance to blow up and damaging units within 7 inches of it. If you're using it for cover with your army. That might mean a large chunk of your units will be in the blast radius. It is something to consider. Sure it's only one mortal wound but it's still something.

[TURBULENCE]

Only one mortal wound is a joke to death guard, considering maybe what, 5 units don't get a chance to save against one?

especially considering how easy it is for us to put them out on the enemy in return.

 

And aren't most people suggesting to take 2 or 3 helbrutes anyway? Seeing as anti tank brutes get focus fired pretty easily, and are hitting about just as much as the hauler would at range. I'll take a better chance not to die and a cover bubble for my already tough infantry any day.

[Cleon]

What do folks think about using a the haulers for cover on your units and then casting miasma on the haulers to make it harder for the enemy to kill them to clear the buff?

[Wayniac]

Only one mortal wound is a joke to death guard, considering maybe what, 5 units don't get a chance to save against one?

especially considering how easy it is for us to put them out on the enemy in return.

 

And aren't most people suggesting to take 2 or 3 helbrutes anyway? Seeing as anti tank brutes get focus fired pretty easily, and are hitting about just as much as the hauler would at range. I'll take a better chance not to die and a cover bubble for my already tough infantry any day.

 

Technically the Helbrute hits slightly better, unless you take 3+ Blight Haulers (which is 426 points for the tri-lobe).  A pair of Helbrutes provides solid fire support for just under 300 points, but are as stated much less durable than a brace or tri-lobe of Blight-Haulers.  However there is also the stratagem that lets them shoot twice at the closest vehicle, so an anti-tank Helbrute can get double the work done.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Wayniac

[BlackTriton]

Having a helbrute to enable the stratagem is nice, but if they get targeted first (they do) may not come in to play often.

For the same reason you always include a putrefier if you take any plague marine just in case you get to use blight bombardment.

 

Miasma on 3 hauler is a nice trick, 1 spell on 400+ point of your army? It is good value.

[Gaerolth]

Only one mortal wound is a joke to death guard, considering maybe what, 5 units don't get a chance to save against one?

especially considering how easy it is for us to put them out on the enemy in return.

 

And aren't most people suggesting to take 2 or 3 helbrutes anyway? Seeing as anti tank brutes get focus fired pretty easily, and are hitting about just as much as the hauler would at range. I'll take a better chance not to die and a cover bubble for my already tough infantry any day.

Personally with Plaguebursts at 146 points I wouldn't take Hellbrutes either. I wasn't using the 7 inch mortal wound factor as the only factor. It's just another factor. They are 4 points shy of a Plagueburst Crawler, which with a lord babysitting them, do more damage than a 4x Las Predator and have more survivability than a Land Raider.

 

Against T7, 3+ save units a 4-las predator does 5.185 damage.

Against T7, 3+ save units a PBC does 7.388 amage.

 

Against T8, 3+ save units a 4-las predator does 5.185 damage.

Against T8, 3+ save units a PBC does 5.625 damage.

 

A Myphitic Blight Hauler doesn't come close to these numbers. It's just too expensive when we have a far superior and nearly as cheap option. I don't think the +1 cover save is a good enough factor. I mean, if you're talking non-competitive that's fine. Does someone have any math to back up the Myphitic?

[TURBULENCE]

 

 

Only one mortal wound is a joke to death guard, considering maybe what, 5 units don't get a chance to save against one?

especially considering how easy it is for us to put them out on the enemy in return.

 

And aren't most people suggesting to take 2 or 3 helbrutes anyway? Seeing as anti tank brutes get focus fired pretty easily, and are hitting about just as much as the hauler would at range. I'll take a better chance not to die and a cover bubble for my already tough infantry any day.

Personally with Plaguebursts at 146 points I wouldn't take Hellbrutes either. I wasn't using the 7 inch mortal wound factor as the only factor. It's just another factor. They are 4 points shy of a Plagueburst Crawler, which with a lord babysitting them, do more damage than a 4x Las Predator and have more survivability than a Land Raider.

 

Against T7, 3+ save units a 4-las predator does 5.185 damage.

Against T7, 3+ save units a PBC does 7.388 amage.

 

Against T8, 3+ save units a 4-las predator does 5.185 damage.

Against T8, 3+ save units a PBC does 5.625 damage.

 

A Myphitic Blight Hauler doesn't come close to these numbers. It's just too expensive when we have a far superior and nearly as cheap option. I don't think the +1 cover save is a good enough factor. I mean, if you're talking non-competitive that's fine. Does someone have any math to back up the Myphitic?

I see where you're coming from with the math, the logic is sound. Though I find statistics in a vacuum rarely equal actual tabletop performance.

 

But I'm, as you suggested, not a competitive player, so ymmv

[Gaerolth]

 

 

Only one mortal wound is a joke to death guard, considering maybe what, 5 units don't get a chance to save against one?

especially considering how easy it is for us to put them out on the enemy in return.

 

And aren't most people suggesting to take 2 or 3 helbrutes anyway? Seeing as anti tank brutes get focus fired pretty easily, and are hitting about just as much as the hauler would at range. I'll take a better chance not to die and a cover bubble for my already tough infantry any day.

Personally with Plaguebursts at 146 points I wouldn't take Hellbrutes either. I wasn't using the 7 inch mortal wound factor as the only factor. It's just another factor. They are 4 points shy of a Plagueburst Crawler, which with a lord babysitting them, do more damage than a 4x Las Predator and have more survivability than a Land Raider.

 

Against T7, 3+ save units a 4-las predator does 5.185 damage.

Against T7, 3+ save units a PBC does 7.388 amage.

 

Against T8, 3+ save units a 4-las predator does 5.185 damage.

Against T8, 3+ save units a PBC does 5.625 damage.

 

A Myphitic Blight Hauler doesn't come close to these numbers. It's just too expensive when we have a far superior and nearly as cheap option. I don't think the +1 cover save is a good enough factor. I mean, if you're talking non-competitive that's fine. Does someone have any math to back up the Myphitic?

I see where you're coming from with the math, the logic is sound. Though I find statistics in a vacuum rarely equal actual tabletop performance.

 

But I'm, as you suggested, not a competitive player, so ymmv

 

Yeah, I play both competitive and non-competitive. I do think the Myphitic Blight Haulers were probably still do fine in semi-competitive environments and at one point I seriously considered them. I do believe, pre point adjustment of the plague burst crawlers, the cheaper price was a good influence to seriously debate one versus the other. The cover save, they still have good firepower, more resilient than hellbrutes, and don't take as much of a hit when moving up the field like the plague burst made them a solid option. Post point adjustment? Suddenly things swing very much in favor of the crawler. That being said, I can see a heavy armor meta and taking 3 blight haulers and 3 Plaguebursts but dropping the drones. Suddenly you have quite a bit of anti-armor and on top of that more infantry support so they are less likely to be wrecked. Throw in Miasma of Pestilence on the Haulers..

 

I don't think they're terrible is what I'm trying to say or knocking people from buying them. Just that the crawler definitely does have the edge in most cases.

[Panzer]

The crawler has another problem compared to the hauler. It wants to stay at range with a low shot volume at BS4+ and a degrading profile.

One of the strongest army traits is the one that gives -1 to hit against units that are more than 12“ away. That means The crawler would hit on 5+ and if it wants to move closer or gets damaged only on 6+ (or doesn't hit anymore at all if all three things come together).

On the other hand the hauler advances with the rest of your army so should get within 12“ quickly, doesn't suffer from moving with heavy weapons and has no degrading profile.

Plus most of your army wants to march forward anyway so any support you dedicate towards the crawler takes away from that.

 

The Hauler is just way more reliable than Helbrutes or the Crawler and fits better into the army imo. Which is a shame because the Crawler looks really awesome as well!

[Closet Skeleton]

Blight Haulers won't help Pox walkers much. I've seen people online asking if BH are what's going to make Plague marines good to which I can only reply that Plague marines are already good in mid tier competitive lists and BH aren't going to push them out of the mid tier and neither is a -2ppm price drop from chapter approved. Top tier players favour stuff other than PM because no flavour of marines are the meta, only a meta that favours marines will make more marines show up.

 

What do folks think about using a the haulers for cover on your units and then casting miasma on the haulers to make it harder for the enemy to kill them to clear the buff?

 

Sounds like a good idea but you're really using the Blight Hauler's ability to bait your opponent into taking that -1 to hit rather than actually protecting the Blight Haulers. Miasma is a great spell but you have to cast it on something hard to ignore or its wasted. I run a lot of duplicate units so Miasma is often pointless.

[Wayniac]

The crawler has another problem compared to the hauler. It wants to stay at range with a low shot volume at BS4+ and a degrading profile.

One of the strongest army traits is the one that gives -1 to hit against units that are more than 12“ away. That means The crawler would hit on 5+ and if it wants to move closer or gets damaged only on 6+ (or doesn't hit anymore at all if all three things come together).

On the other hand the hauler advances with the rest of your army so should get within 12“ quickly, doesn't suffer from moving with heavy weapons and has no degrading profile.

Plus most of your army wants to march forward anyway so any support you dedicate towards the crawler takes away from that.

 

The Hauler is just way more reliable than Helbrutes or the Crawler and fits better into the army imo. Which is a shame because the Crawler looks really awesome as well!

 

This is something very valid, but the Hauler and even the Helbrute can also suffer because there's a lot of ways to stack those penalties to -2 or even -3 (Eldar can do this frequently) and be virtually immune to any shooting at all.  

 

I think they really end up close together; shooting penalties will screw all of them over equally, it depends on what you want to get and which you want to use to get it.  I still feel the Helbrute with LC/ML is better if you only want ranged anti-tank, because even with the -1 to hit (not counting the shenanigans to stack it right now) you're hitting on the same as the Crawler/Hauler, while the Hauler would be hitting on 5s until it gets close (and, having a multi-melta, has roughly half the range so would be suffering the penalty at least one turn more than the Helbrute) and the Crawler would be hitting on 5s normally and 6s if it had to move to get a clear shot.  However I think (don't quote me on this) that as of now only Eldar have the -1 apply to vehicles, so that's a little more situational if you're going to use the Hauler as anti-tank as well (although something like a Redemptor Dreadnought would still get it for Marines IIRC and you want that guy to die pretty fast).

 

The real question I think comes between the Hauler and the Crawler.  They fill slightly different roles, but there's quite a lot of overlap between them since both are tanky platforms that pack strong weapons.  Unfortunately I don't have math or theory to back up one versus the other, and I think since the Hauler isn't released yet there hasn't been a ton of playtesting it either.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Wayniac

[Panzer]

 

The crawler has another problem compared to the hauler. It wants to stay at range with a low shot volume at BS4+ and a degrading profile.

One of the strongest army traits is the one that gives -1 to hit against units that are more than 12“ away. That means The crawler would hit on 5+ and if it wants to move closer or gets damaged only on 6+ (or doesn't hit anymore at all if all three things come together).

On the other hand the hauler advances with the rest of your army so should get within 12“ quickly, doesn't suffer from moving with heavy weapons and has no degrading profile.

Plus most of your army wants to march forward anyway so any support you dedicate towards the crawler takes away from that.

 

The Hauler is just way more reliable than Helbrutes or the Crawler and fits better into the army imo. Which is a shame because the Crawler looks really awesome as well!

 

This is something very valid, but the Hauler and even the Helbrute can also suffer because there's a lot of ways to stack those penalties to -2 or even -3 (Eldar can do this frequently) and be virtually immune to any shooting at all.  

 

I think they really end up close together; shooting penalties will screw all of them over equally, it depends on what you want to get and which you want to use to get it.  I still feel the Helbrute with LC/ML is better if you only want ranged anti-tank, because even with the -1 to hit (not counting the shenanigans to stack it right now) you're hitting on the same as the Crawler/Hauler, while the Hauler would be hitting on 5s until it gets close and the Crawler would be hitting on 5s normally and 6s if it had to move to get a clear shot.  However I think (don't quote me on this) that as of now only Eldar have the -1 apply to vehicles, so that's a little more situational if you're going to use the Hauler as anti-tank as well (although something like a Redemptor Dreadnought would still get it for Marines IIRC and you want that guy to die pretty fast).

 

The real question I think comes between the Hauler and the Crawler.  They fill slightly different roles, but there's quite a lot of overlap between them since both are tanky platforms that pack strong weapons.  Unfortunately I don't have math or theory to back up one versus the other, and I think since the Hauler isn't released yet there hasn't been a ton of playtesting it either.

 

Of course they can suffer from those effects as well. Like basically any unit in the game except for flame throwers and similar. So that's really no argument here. At least the Hauler ignores 2-3 of the most common ones (being >12" range against multiple subfactions, moving and degrading profile).

The problem with the Helbrute is not its damage output it's the durability. It usually simply gets nuked while that's a LOT harder to do with the Hauler.

[Wayniac]

I must be missing something, how does the Hauler ignore the >12" range?  I get the moving (move and shoot without penalty) and the degrading profile (it has none).  Just because it's fast?

 

One point though to add yet another decision to this is if one is playing the ITC Champions missions, the Recon secondary mission requires you to have a unit in each quarter of the table to score it.  In this case, and only in this case, I think the Crawler can push ahead slightly because it will not need to move with the rest of the army while the Hauler will be pressing forward, and then you won't necessarily have something in your own quadrant to score.  However, Recon is also an optional secondary mission, so you do not have to select it.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Wayniac

[Panzer]

I must be missing something, how does the Hauler ignore the >12" range?  I get the moving (move and shoot without penalty) and the degrading profile (it has none).  Just because it's fast?

 

One point though to add yet another decision to this is if one is playing the ITC Champions missions, the Recon secondary mission requires you to have a unit in each quarter of the table to score it.  In this case, and only in this case, I think the Crawler can push ahead slightly because it will not need to move with the rest of the army while the Hauler will be pressing forward, and then you won't necessarily have something in your own quadrant to score.  However, Recon is also an optional secondary mission, so you do not have to select it.

Ignore wasn't really the right word but since he's going to march forward with the rest of your army anyway or even faster than those he'll be within 12" quickly anyway while the Crawler is most likely (or rather hopefully) never within 12" of its target. Hence why I said 2-3 and not straight out 3. ;)

 

Fair point about the ITC mission but that's a very specific case. I think I'd rather leave a unit of Poxwalker in the backfield in that case.

Edited November 30, 2017 by sfPanzer

[BlackTriton]

A point to make is that hauler and crawler are not exclusive, what about a list with 3 hauler and 2 crawler?

Mix in some plague marine + daemon prince for the main line and a chaos lord and some cultist for the backfeild.

Sounds fluffy enough for a narative game and maybe can compete vs not high tounament meta?

[Wayniac]

A point to make is that hauler and crawler are not exclusive, what about a list with 3 hauler and 2 crawler?

Mix in some plague marine + daemon prince for the main line and a chaos lord and some cultist for the backfeild.

Sounds fluffy enough for a narative game and maybe can compete vs not high tounament meta?

 

I'm actually thinking of a list now that has 3 haulers but only 1 crawler, with some marines, two big poxwalker blobs, 2 drones, terminators, Prince/Plaguecaster.

[Xenith]

Gorgeous model. Will buy one to paint. Will buy more when I revisit my chaos.

[bozo69pd]

Just played with 3 haulers + PM blob last night instead of my usual 3 drones with spitters + walkers. I think against very certain armies Haulers+PM could be great, they were doing ok. I definitely feel that walker spam + drones is superior by far though.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

So what army were you playing against and how did it go down?!?

 

Details man!! We need Details!! :-)

[bozo69pd]

I had 2 battalions DG + AL:

Morty, malignant PC, DP with plate, 2 cultist units, 8 plague marines with bubonic axes (PF on champ), 3 haulers, 2 flying DP with claws, 3x chaos marines.

 

He had Ynarri + Altaoic :

Yvraine, 6 hemlock/crimson hunters, 3 wave serpents full of storm guardians, a warlock, some shuriken platforms.

 

He went first which was rough, knocked Morty to 1 wound after shooting all the vehicles at him. Morty struck back and did a good job tanking more shooting before he died. Haulers + marines made it to midfield and fought a good fight, but the wave serpents can of course just flee and shoot which just made the haulers die after he unloaded everything into them. It was all downhill after that. The DP's killed many things but there was only 3 of them.

 

I ended up wishing I had just brought zombies, DP's, and blight drones as usual lol.