Chapter Approved and the RG/Raptors

[ddarz]

I'm guessing by now most of us have seen the points leaks... and as far as I can see Lias Issodon is not mentioned anywhere!

 

I'll admit I was expecting a bit of a points increase, seeing he is good for the points and some where taking advantage.
But happily it seems people realised that in a world of Demon smite and multiple primarchs per table, he wasn't really the problem :)

 

Anyone spot anything else good or bad for RG/R?

 

Fire raptors are down by 66pts with autocannons :)

Agressors, for those who like them, are way cheaper now too

Primaris in general got a price cut

 

Nothing that I saw which would help Scouts, Tacs, Devs, Sternguard or Vanguard, and the Javelin speeder and razorback got a hike

[seriade]

the thing with lias is that he does not have an actual model so i can see them just deprecating him as the solution to that if they find he is a problem. 

[Damo1701]

If I'm honest, the leaks have turned me further off of buying the book than I already was.

 

I'm not a huge converter, so the VDR hold minimal interest. I can get my kicks seeing what other frater come up with.

 

I don't use Primaris at all, despite slowing working on a small force. If I ever play games that low in points, i doubt the points drops would make much difference.

 

All in all, there is no incentive for me to fork out for a book to balance an edition that is 6 months old, as part of an annual update.

 

That's just my circumstances though. If you find the book useful, go for it.

[ddarz]

If I'm honest, the leaks have turned me further off of buying the book than I already was.

 

I'm not a huge converter, so the VDR hold minimal interest. I can get my kicks seeing what other frater come up with.

 

I don't use Primaris at all, despite slowing working on a small force. If I ever play games that low in points, i doubt the points drops would make much difference.

 

All in all, there is no incentive for me to fork out for a book to balance an edition that is 6 months old, as part of an annual update.

 

That's just my circumstances though. If you find the book useful, go for it.

 

Based on what we have seen so far I agree with you - I'm not terribly excited about picking this up just for the points changes. Primaris are great models, but don't excite me tbh

I hope there will be more value int he rest of it. As in rules for some of the smaller factions, missions and maybe even some changed data sheets

 

But i'm not holding my breath, and I am rather annoyed at how many resources are needed to play a game now... BRB, index, index FW, chapter approved, and the inevitable faq's.

They really should have a definitive digital living document or app

[MajorNese]

 

Based on what we have seen so far I agree with you - I'm not terribly excited about picking this up just for the points changes. Primaris are great models, but don't excite me tbh

I hope there will be more value int he rest of it. As in rules for some of the smaller factions, missions and maybe even some changed data sheets

 

But i'm not holding my breath, and I am rather annoyed at how many resources are needed to play a game now... BRB, index, index FW, chapter approved, and the inevitable faq's.

They really should have a definitive digital living document or app

Same here. I'm playing quite a lot of primaris, but buying a third book (index, codex, CA) specifically to play one-and-the-same army for 6 months is too much. The digital version will find its way to the interwebs, and the 2 or 3 pages new points list will be acceptable to just print myself.

[Mileposter]

I am rather annoyed at how many resources are needed to play a game now... BRB, index, index FW, chapter approved, and the inevitable faq's.

They really should have a definitive digital living document or app

Two books, down from 5 in 7th ed! I'm loving it!

 

Or no books, if you have a phone or tablet.

[Damo1701]

 

I am rather annoyed at how many resources are needed to play a game now... BRB, index, index FW, chapter approved, and the inevitable faq's.

They really should have a definitive digital living document or app

Two books, down from 5 in 7th ed! I'm loving it!

 

Or no books, if you have a phone or tablet.

Raven Guard in 7th - BRB, Codex, Angels of Death.

 

Raven Guard in 8th - BRB, Codex, Index, FW Index, (Chapter Approved) (if you are in the ultra competitive bracket).

 

That's 2 up over last edition, and I didn't need the Forge World stuff to hold my own against other armies.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

The only thing I didnt like about this book is that it didnt address land speeders being complete dog poop.  Their weapons should all be assault not heavy.  That way you actually get something for their high cost.

[Mileposter]

 

 

I am rather annoyed at how many resources are needed to play a game now... BRB, index, index FW, chapter approved, and the inevitable faq's.

They really should have a definitive digital living document or app

Two books, down from 5 in 7th ed! I'm loving it!

 

Or no books, if you have a phone or tablet.

 

Raven Guard in 7th - BRB, Codex, Angels of Death.

 

Raven Guard in 8th - BRB, Codex, Index, FW Index, (Chapter Approved) (if you are in the ultra competitive bracket).

 

That's 2 up over last edition, and I didn't need the Forge World stuff to hold my own against other armies.

 

Someone who's playing the competitive bracket should be aware of doing the work to be competitive. If the statement is 'need', then it should only be about needs to playing the game itself - playing competitive is not a need of the game.

 

RG rules in 7th: BRB, Codex, Warzone Damocles (SP?), Angels of Death, and Death From the Skies. And then web supplement Space Marines.

 

RG rules in 8th: BRB, Codex. I'll presume Chapter Approved.

 

The required library is significantly smaller then previously this way. Forge World inclusion is optional, not required, much in the same way that it is optional to include Eldar with your Tau, and thus include another book. I'll give leniency if there's Raven Guard specific rules in FW that isn't 30K, but Raptors don't count.

 

"GW's current method (or, more to the point, Space Marine balance) has inconvenienced me with books." is completely valid and I support you in that regard. But it still doesn't address the myriad of ways that exist to reduce your carrying load: army builders such as Battlescribe, memorization, digital versions, index cards, print sheets, truncated datasheets, or a simple web connection. At some point the responsibility falls to us as players to manage our backpacks.

 

Having said that, I will echo the interest in a living document style for the BRB at the very least. But, I'm a tech head, and I can fathom up a dozen different nifties that would be cool and useful and would attract attention for them to bring about this 'living edition'. Doesn't exactly mean they'd be cost effective, though. A change to a digital-primary system would lessen the book-carrying strain but increase the cost-barrier considerably in other areas. Could run more limited print books so that they can be updated as new runs come along.

 

And while detailed info about Chapter Approved is a little scarce currently, I'd wonder if they'd make a compendium with it. If Chapter Approved is intended to be a full-on update... Would make sense if it included a compiled listing of all the FAQs? Unlikely, I suppose, but I wonder if that would provide benefit. Perhaps this other second yearly adjustment period they've mentioned will have something to do with such. Of course, that part could be moot if second-printing of the Codices and BRB includes the Errata changes or point changes that have come about previous. Would not exactly helps someone who had already purchased their Codex, but would lessen the financial footprint on someone starting up that new army or new to the game. Suppose we'll see.

 

The only thing I didnt like about this book is that it didnt address land speeders being complete dog poop.  Their weapons should all be assault not heavy.  That way you actually get something for their high cost.

... I cannot thumbs up this enough...

[Mileposter]

Adding one point: If they are going the route where you'll need the Chapter Approved of every year in order to play appropriately? My tune will do a complete 180. I'm doubting it, but it's possible.

[seriade]

Judging by the way the book is named and the fact that it has a price close to an index makes me think it is ment for a yearly supplement.

[Claws and Effect]

Judging by the way the book is named and the fact that it has a price close to an index makes me think it is ment for a yearly supplement.

 

Gotta have something to keep people spending money after they have everything they need to play otherwise. 

[MajorNese]

Well, it's official, won't play the Thunderhawk outside of apocalypse any more. Price hike from 830p to a mere 1500p, while it's barely worth the 830p. A lot of other superheavies got more expensive, while everyone around here agreed that they'd rather need a discount to be usable. Heck, no need to buy more of those for a while, more time for small stuff...

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Big points increases for super heavies?  Sounds good to me!  There should be a pretty thick wall between apocalypse and regular games.  

[MajorNese]

Big points increases for super heavies?  Sounds good to me!  There should be a pretty thick wall between apocalypse and regular games.  

...as easy as many of them are to kill, they are now an entirely pointless points grave. Bringing a superheavy to a regular game has never been a problem so far, as long as the rest of the list isn't also tanks. Anything can wound it, and any AT weaponry will get through.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

Big points increases for super heavies?  Sounds good to me!  There should be a pretty thick wall between apocalypse and regular games.  

...as easy as many of them are to kill, they are now an entirely pointless points grave. Bringing a superheavy to a regular game has never been a problem so far, as long as the rest of the list isn't also tanks. Anything can wound it, and any AT weaponry will get through.

 

Do you remember all that internet blather about lasguns rending land raiders and wraithknights?  I wish some of those whiners were held to account on their bs.  

 

Although I did strip a wound off of a wraithknight with a bolt pistol about 2 weeks ago.  Sadly it was not the killing blow.

[MajorNese]

 

 

Big points increases for super heavies?  Sounds good to me!  There should be a pretty thick wall between apocalypse and regular games.  

...as easy as many of them are to kill, they are now an entirely pointless points grave. Bringing a superheavy to a regular game has never been a problem so far, as long as the rest of the list isn't also tanks. Anything can wound it, and any AT weaponry will get through.

 

Do you remember all that internet blather about lasguns rending land raiders and wraithknights?  I wish some of those whiners were held to account on their bs.  

 

Although I did strip a wound off of a wraithknight with a bolt pistol about 2 weeks ago.  Sadly it was not the killing blow.

...well, most wounds do get taken off by multi-damage weapons, the ones with fixed value (like autocannons) and smite spam have so far been the most effective. But yeah, losing wounds through cultist autoguns and ramming Leman Russes does happen, though it won't kill them.

 

As for the points, I guess smite spam is the most effective one. Auto hit, auto wound, 2 wounds on average, no saves. At a thunderhawk's new points level, that's 100p worth of damage per smite.

[Damo1701]

Seriously, I'm breaking even on book count to hold my own in 8th Vs 7th. Even though to hold my own now I use Forge World, as I have not found anything in the codex that fits both points bracket and army theme.

 

In 7th, I literally used C:SM, Angels of Death, and the BRB. I needed nothing else.

 

8th, totally depends on the list I am running. Sometimes I need the index. Mostly though, just BRB, Codex, and Forge World.

 

I see no call for the annual update book before codexes are released, the edition has been out a full year, and there is some actual explanation behind some things.

 

I'll carry on with my Codex and Forge World Index until at least the year is up, and/or a proper Imperial Armour book is released.

[Nusquam]

Well, it's official, won't play the Thunderhawk outside of apocalypse any more. Price hike from 830p to a mere 1500p, while it's barely worth the 830p. A lot of other superheavies got more expensive, while everyone around here agreed that they'd rather need a discount to be usable. Heck, no need to buy more of those for a while, more time for small stuff...

Every single FW LoW became unplayable if you use points. Yet a lot of regular stuff got better.

 

Big points increases for super heavies?  Sounds good to me!  There should be a pretty thick wall between apocalypse and regular games.  

Except Baneblades stayed cheap as dirt and are so much better, especially now that you can bring two for the price of one Fellblade. It's ridiculous. Penalizing every faction except Guard. Baneblades and the whole Bane family are broken by comparison. Fellblades were not a problem and I can get TWO Shadowswords for the points, and pounds, of one Fellblade. That isn't limiting things to apocalypse that is nerfing FW-specific LoWs into the ground beyond play-ability. And only the FW ones. The Fellblade Accelerator Cannon is strictly worse, in both modes, than the Baneblade cannon. Even with a 3+. Regiment rules are far superior to +1T/BS/Sv. The only thing worth it's points were the dual quad lascannons and they are 160 points and has nothing to do with the Fellblade itself.

 

Besides if their goal was to actually limit to APoc only, the could have just added a rules that stated as such. Inflating points astronomically is the hardest way to do that. Even worse when it's not universal; only plastic LoWs got a free pass.

[Claws and Effect]

Fire Raptor go up or down?

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

C:SM Points changes:

 

Aggressor Squad: 4 Points Cheaper (Per Model)

Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets: 2 Points Cheaper (Per Model)

 

Net Change: 6 Points Cheaper (Per Model). (18 points saved for 3-Man Unit, 36 points saved for a 6-Man Unit)

 

Drop Pod: 10 Points Cheaper (Per Model)

 

Inceptor Squad: 5 Points Cheaper (Per Model)

Assault Bolter: 5 Points Cheaper (Per Weapon)

Plasma Exterminator: 11 Points Cheaper (Per Weapon)

 

Net Change: 15 Points Cheaper (Per Model) for Assault Bolter Variant. 27 Points Cheaper (Per Model) for Plasma Variant.

 

45 points saved for 3 - Assault Bolters, 81 points saved for 3 - Plasma

 

Intercessor Squad: 2 Points Cheaper (Per Model)

(Aux Grenade Launcher listed - was already in the FAQ - Not listed in the Codex)

 

Librarian - 5 Points Cheaper (Per Model)

Librarian in Terminator Armor - 23 Points Cheaper (Per Model)

Librarian with Jump Pack - 4 Points Cheaper (Per Model)

Force Axe - 6 Points Cheaper

Force Stave - 6 Points Cheaper

Force Sword - 4 Points Cheaper

 

Net Change: 9% to 18% discount depending on arms and armor choices.

 

Razorback - 5 Points More Expensive (Per Model)

Twin Assault Cannon - 9 Points More Expensive (Per Weapon)

 

Net Change: 14 Points More Expensive for Twin Assault Cannon Variant (still a bargain, imo)

 

Stalker - 5 Points Cheaper (Per Model)

 

Stormraven Gunship: 20 Points More Expensive (Per Model)

Twin Assault Cannon - 9 Points More Expensive (Per Weapon)

Hurricane Bolter - 6 Points More Expensive (Per Weapon)

 

Net Change: Leadfarmer Variant 41 Points More Expensive

 

Tartaros Terminator Squad: 5 Points Cheaper (Per Model)

Terminator Assault Squad: 5 Points Cheaper (Per Model)

 

Terminus Ultra: (I dont have my Index on me, but I assume this was changed to align with the VDR coming)

 

Vindicator: 10 Points Cheaper (Per Model)

 

Whirlwind: 5 Points Cheaper (Per Model) - Still garbage imo, needs to be even less (Think Wyvern)

 

Other changes/notes:

 

Assault Plasma Exterminator: 1 Point More Expensive (Per Weapon). I really have no idea what the logic was here, imo this isn't even that popular of a choice (over the default)

 

Predator Autocannon: 9 Points Cheaper (Per Weapon). Great weapon, debateable if a 9 point deduction is enough to get it to contest the Twin Las option.

 

Fire Raptor Gunship: I don't own a FW Index, but I am fairly certain it got cheaper. Reddit states the chaos variant got 60 points cheaper, I assume loyalist is similar.

 

Most NON-LOW options in the Index got cheaper is my understanding.

 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Im not really sure why GW likes to make MANY small points adjustments.  Seems like it would be better to make fewer but more substantial adjustments.  

 

For example, 

 

Rob G: 450 points

Land Speeders: 50 points

Vindicators: 100 points

Whirlwind: 60 points

 

Done.  Changes like this would go further for Space Marines than 5 point adjustments to everything at the same time which is just annoying.  

 

From my own narrow perspective the Chapter Approved changes are good for me.  I run 1 squad of Inceptors and will have 45 additional points to play with.  Maybe I should just give all my sargeants Thunder Hammers??  Just for the lulz.  Hard to think of anything else that would cost 45ish points.

[MajorNese]

From my own narrow perspective the Chapter Approved changes are good for me.  I run 1 squad of Inceptors and will have 45 additional points to play with.  Maybe I should just give all my sargeants Thunder Hammers??  Just for the lulz.  Hard to think of anything else that would cost 45ish points.

Or, you know, you could just take another inceptor, it's down to 45p (if you field the bolter variant).

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I couldn't agree more.

 

Some of these changes feel insignificant to the point of having no effect at all (Bobby G, Whirlwind, Assault Plasma Exterminator)

 

Some feel just right (Twin AC Razorbacks)

 

Some feel maybe a tad overzealous in the other direction (All the LoW Changes, Inceptors)

 

Maybe looking at it as a relational situation is the best way to evaluate?

 

Twin AC Razorback: ~15% more expensive

 

Bolter Inceptors: 25% Cheaper

Plasma Inceptors: ~32% Cheaper!

 

Obviously its hard to say if a change is good or bad holistically, but I can definitely say something along the lines of "If a change isn't above a certain % threshold, it feels like the change was unwarranted". A bunch of these changes are less than 5% in either direction and that just feels like a joke.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

From my own narrow perspective the Chapter Approved changes are good for me.  I run 1 squad of Inceptors and will have 45 additional points to play with.  Maybe I should just give all my sargeants Thunder Hammers??  Just for the lulz.  Hard to think of anything else that would cost 45ish points.

Or, you know, you could just take another inceptor, it's down to 45p (if you field the bolter variant).

 

Something tells me that is better value than 45 points worth of thunder hammers... just way less cool.