Chapter Approved and the RG/Raptors

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I couldn't agree more.

 

Some of these changes feel insignificant to the point of having no effect at all (Bobby G, Whirlwind, Assault Plasma Exterminator)

 

Some feel just right (Twin AC Razorbacks)

 

Some feel maybe a tad overzealous in the other direction (All the LoW Changes, Inceptors)

 

Maybe looking at it as a relational situation is the best way to evaluate?

 

Twin AC Razorback: ~15% more expensive

 

Bolter Inceptors: 25% Cheaper

Plasma Inceptors: ~32% Cheaper!

 

Obviously its hard to say if a change is good or bad holistically, but I can definitely say something along the lines of "If a change isn't above a certain % threshold, it feels like the change was unwarranted". A bunch of these changes are less than 5% in either direction and that just feels like a joke.

I got a better change for the Space Marine codex that doesnt require any points adjustments.  Ready for it?

 

 

Chapter Tactics apply to all units.  

 

Pretty good I think.  Would probably enhance model sales more than some piddling points adjustments to POWERHOUSE units like vindicators or stalkers.  

[seriade]

Out of idle Curiosity now is the fire raptor cheaper?

 

Also just let me check my math the xyphon is now 240 and a sicaran punisher with full heavy bolter loadout is now 185 pts?

[smbarne]

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

Some of these changes feel insignificant to the point of having no effect at all (Bobby G, Whirlwind, Assault Plasma Exterminator)

 

Some feel just right (Twin AC Razorbacks)

 

Some feel maybe a tad overzealous in the other direction (All the LoW Changes, Inceptors)

 

Maybe looking at it as a relational situation is the best way to evaluate?

 

Twin AC Razorback: ~15% more expensive

 

Bolter Inceptors: 25% Cheaper

Plasma Inceptors: ~32% Cheaper!

 

Obviously its hard to say if a change is good or bad holistically, but I can definitely say something along the lines of "If a change isn't above a certain % threshold, it feels like the change was unwarranted". A bunch of these changes are less than 5% in either direction and that just feels like a joke.

I got a better change for the Space Marine codex that doesnt require any points adjustments.  Ready for it?

 

 

Chapter Tactics apply to all units.  

 

Pretty good I think.  Would probably enhance model sales more than some piddling points adjustments to POWERHOUSE units like vindicators or stalkers.  

 

 

I'd honestly just like it if they extended Chapter Tactics to speeders.  Dreadnoughts and bikes have them, why not speeders?  It makes RG speeder possibly viable.  The rumors show no price drops for them, however :/.

[seriade]

As far as i can tell the only thing this chapter tactics did was remove models they do not want used in match play by nerfing the points to oblivion.  Then buffing a few things and some minor tweaks.  As for land speeders the only one that may have a place atm is the scout speeder and even that is questionable attack bikes are in the same state.  As raven guard though if they did extend the -1 to everything we would be seeing more xyphons and storm hawks/talons as those would become incredibly hard to hit now.

[Kallas]

As raven guard though if they did extend the -1 to everything we would be seeing more xyphons and storm hawks/talons as those would become incredibly hard to hit now.

So... just like Alaitoc Flyers then? Except Raven Guard can't also stack Conceal on top.

 

Seriously, Chapter Tactics applying to everything wouldn't be the end of the world. If absolutely necessary, don't apply to Flyer Role and T8 non-Dreadnoughts, though probably unnecessary.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Kallas

[duz_]

Yay! My Inceptors just got 81pts cheaper! :D

Nothing else really effects my builds though.

[seriade]

 

As raven guard though if they did extend the -1 to everything we would be seeing more xyphons and storm hawks/talons as those would become incredibly hard to hit now.

So... just like Alaitoc Flyers then? Except Raven Guard can't also stack Conceal on top.

 

Seriously, Chapter Tactics applying to everything wouldn't be the end of the world. If absolutely necessary, don't apply to Flyer Role and T8 non-Dreadnoughts, though probably unnecessary.

 

Conceal is infantry or bikes only though they do have a stratagem that can be used.  But I do agree it would not be the end of the world the reason I think it is not applied is the fact that a large exception list would need to be created and they seem to want to make the rules as straight forward as possible.

[Mileposter]

I'm willing to bet that we won't see sweeping changes to the Standard Space Marines until after they see how the Dark Angels and Blood Angels do. They have far more specialized and rules-heavy setups, and I think the difference between them and the Codex: Space Marines is going to highlight for a design team where to go with C:SM. As a developer, that's where I'd be looking for relevant data, anyway.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I feel like with the addition of primaris (and the transition to a full line) we may see a 2nd iteration of the Space Marine codex in the middle of the 8th edition life cycle. 

[Race Bannon]

Vyper, shush man!  GW is watching this space

 

:P

 

But I can totally see that :cry:

[Mileposter]

Probably a bit premature to put your chips on that number.

 

C:SM updates are likely to be part of the mid-year game update they're talking about rather than a codex rerelease.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Probably a bit premature to put your chips on that number.

 

C:SM updates are likely to be part of the mid-year game update they're talking about rather than a codex rerelease.

Do you mean chapter approved or something else?

[Mileposter]

 

Probably a bit premature to put your chips on that number.

 

C:SM updates are likely to be part of the mid-year game update they're talking about rather than a codex rerelease.

Do you mean chapter approved or something else?

 

Something else. GW said they were aiming for two balance releases per year, one being Chapter Approved and the other not being named. One assumes that would be a mid-year release, but no details have been said since.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Oh neat, I wasn't aware of that. That definitely could fill the role I am referring to.

[Nusquam]

I ran some numbers on Plasma Stern/Plasma Inceptors/Hellblasters. They all have very similar damage output but the Inceptors ability to always alpha strike, from orbit no less, makes the top pick for me. Hellblasters do the most damage on average thanks to AP-4, but will always be on the table and subject to fire if you go second. Ten Plasma Stern and Issodon can do some serious damage if they Ambush, but the Inceptors have some serious advantages despite being 44 points more for 6; The can fall back and shoot, are T5 and have a wound pool of of 12 vs 10 and taking a single wound won't diminish firepower on a fresh Inceptor, and have higher mobility.

 

While we get a free pod in the form of Issodon, that 44 points is well spent in my opinion. What makes them good for us is that RG/Raptors get mobile Chapter Masters that can deepstrike alongside them for rerolls. Couple with -1 to hit at 12"+ makes for some serious strike and fade tactics. Alongside Issodon you can pull a relic banner marine, apothecary, and unit of your choice. That way the squad gets a chance to shoot again when they overheat and get shot at then get back up.

 

I'd invest in 6 Plasma Inceptors but I'm just going to use an outflanking Tallarn Hellhamer instead.

 

The 6th Aggressor just became free in my list too, so that's cool.

[MajorNese]

With inceptors being usably cheap now, I'll try to use them more often. Also, this supports my plan of more mobile apothecaries, as reviving or healing a 60p model quickly repays their points. Next list will include a biker apothecary, as T5, 5W (self-healing if necessary) and 20" guaranteed advance range (before healing/attempting to revive) should give that guy the option to reach their target. Add the Teeth of Terra (4-6A at WS3+), and that guy can still cause some trouble on his own.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I'm willing to bet that we won't see sweeping changes to the Standard Space Marines until after they see how the Dark Angels and Blood Angels do. They have far more specialized and rules-heavy setups, and I think the difference between them and the Codex: Space Marines is going to highlight for a design team where to go with C:SM. As a developer, that's where I'd be looking for relevant data, anyway.

I think you can almost see an admission by GW that C:SM is lackluster just by the new Red Thirst rule that Blood Angels get.  Now that is a chapter tactic that really defines the army and give virtually everything serious power in close combat.

[seriade]

The thing is blood angels always had that rule and they payed for it by having less access to certain units.  Also it will be interesting to see if the primaris also are affected by red thirst.  The more interesting thing is that the death company are basically the same as beserkers and what other new units they gain access to.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

The new Red Thirst is significantly better and it effects all units with the rule. Obviously we don't know what all has The Red Thirst yet, but comparing it to the previous iteration in relation to 8th Ed is hardly valid. +1 to W in 8th Edition is significantly more powerful than +1 Strength in the previous edition. When you couple it with charge, and getting charged on top of that, its pretty crazy.

 

I feel like there's going to be a psychic power that gives an entire unit +1 Str as well, to combine with this rule. If/when that happens, it will be legit viable (I think) for Death Company to go wading through Super Heavies like a hot knife through butter.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

If scouts get the red thirst... a 5 man scout squad with a power sword on the sarge will butcher a tactical squad 

[seriade]

Any thoughts on the use of Storm Eagles as a result of changes to Stormravens?

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Any thoughts on the use of Storm Eagles as a result of changes to Stormravens?

Not a big fan of FW.  To me they just reek of "gimmick" "power gaming" and are expensive.  Not only do you have to buy their expensive models but also a the indexes.  No thanks!

[Damo1701]

The thing is blood angels always had that rule and they payed for it by having less access to certain units. Also it will be interesting to see if the primaris also are affected by red thirst. The more interesting thing is that the death company are basically the same as beserkers and what other new units they gain access to.

Apparently they aren't. It was "fixed" by Cawl in the Primarisification method...

 

At least that's how it was portrayed on Facebook when people were asking about it.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

If scouts get the red thirst... a 5 man scout squad with a power sword on the sarge will butcher a tactical squad 

5 Death Company (with a Chaplain) can deal out:

Thunder Hammers: (165 Points - Big Boy Killers) -3 AP

~14 Damage to T8+ 

~17 Damage to T5-T7

Power Swords: (105 Points - MEQ Killers) -3 AP

~4 Damage to T8+

~7 Damage to T5-T7

~9 Damage to T4

~11 Damage to T3 (or less)

Double Chainswords: (85 Points - Infantry Killers) No AP

~ 7 Damage to T8+

~ 11 Damage to T5-T7

~ 15 Damage to T4

~ 19 Damage to T3 (or less)

 

Those are some pretty absurd numbers if you ask me (rough, no jump packs, etc, but it gets across the idea)

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

If scouts get the red thirst... a 5 man scout squad with a power sword on the sarge will butcher a tactical squad 

5 Death Company (with a Chaplain) can deal out:

Thunder Hammers: (165 Points - Big Boy Killers) -3 AP

~14 Damage to T8+ 

~17 Damage to T5-T7

Power Swords: (105 Points - MEQ Killers) -3 AP

~4 Damage to T8+

~7 Damage to T5-T7

~9 Damage to T4

~11 Damage to T3 (or less)

Double Chainswords: (85 Points - Infantry Killers) No AP

~ 7 Damage to T8+

~ 11 Damage to T5-T7

~ 15 Damage to T4

~ 19 Damage to T3 (or less)

 

Those are some pretty absurd numbers if you ask me (rough, no jump packs, etc, but it gets across the idea)

 

 

That is really impressive but I think the impact on non CC units is just as significant.  Blood Angels tacticals, scouts, assault marines(LOL!), and devastators will have punch in CC... quite a bit of it.  

 

How scary will Blood Angel Reivers be?  :X