Returning player, looking for some list advice please!

[eclipseone]

Hey guys!

 

Just getting back into 40k, haven't played in a few years and I wanted to get back into it with an RG Army. I've already began painting up some models, but I have not yet had a chance to play. Before I post my list, a little about what I'm interested in: I'm not really a competitive player, I'd put myself more into the semi-competitive category in that I like to win sometimes. I'm more of a modeller and painter than a true board gamer, so, cool models and a thematic feel are more my interests. With this army, I didn't want 80+ models, and I don't intend to run this in tournaments, only just some games here and there if I have the time.

 

Without further ado, here's what I've come up with so far:

 

Raven Guard 2000pts / Battalion +3CP / Spearhead +1CP (7CP Total)

 

HQ

 

Kayvaan Shrike (150pts)

Captain - Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Power Axe (98pts)

Chaplain - Jump Pack, Storm Bolter, Raven's Fury (92pts)

 

Troops

 

Scout Squad - 5x Scouts, Boltguns (55pts)

Scout Squad - 5x Scouts, Boltguns (55pts)

Scout Squad - 5x Scouts, Boltguns (55pts)

 

Elites

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad - 10x Vets, Jump Packs, 10x Pair of Lightning Claws (300pts)

Vanguard Veteran Squad - 10x Vets, Jump Packs, 10x Dual Chainsword (180pts)

Aggressor Squad - 4x Aggressors, Boltstorm/Fragstorm Gauntlets (147pts)

 

Heavy Support

 

Rapier Carrier - Quad Launcher (85pts)

Devastator Squad - 4x Las Cannon (165pts)

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought - 2x Heavy Flamer, 2x Storm Cannon Array (309pts)

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought - 2x Heavy Flamer, 2x Storm Cannon Array (309pts)

 

----------------------------------------

 

Few things I'm unsure on:

 

Captain / Chaplain or maybe even a Techmarine on bike?

 

Originally, the list had 2x Dev Squads, I opted to drop one for the Carrier and add in the Aggressors. Still a bit lost as of to what I should do here. If I drop the Aggressors for another Dev team, and drop the carrier - I get enough points for a 4th scout squad, but I'm not really even sure what the scouts are doing in this army other than paying the troop tax and maybe holding objectives / standing in front of the leviathans on the first turn if I go second.

 

Aggressors - I was trying to find a shock troop that would maybe get some attention off of the Leviathans for a turn, but maybe that's not the correct way to employ these guys.

 

Devastators - Before I considered using the Devs, I had a Contemptor Mortis Dread with double Las Cannons; I'm still not sure the Dev's really mesh with the mobility of the army. Conversely, I do need some heavy guns somewhere.

 

Any tips, tricks, comments and criticisms very much welcomed, as well as some tactics to play something like this.

 

Thanks!

 

 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Semi competitive as a play style/descriptor doesnt jive with double leviathan dreadnoughts.  Most club non tourney lists arent going to enjoy playing against you.  That being said...

 

That chaplain doesnt seem to have a purpose.  You could replace him with a lieutenant to make your dreads even more semi competitive.  You should probably look to get a 4th scout squad because if your dreads get into CC then it is curtains for you.  

 

You should also consider breaking up those vanguard vet squads into 5 mans.  That will increase the chance of making a charge out of deepstrike since you will get 4 chances with rerolls rather than 2.  Your guys will also not get blasted off the table so easily if they are split up.  Unless you were planning on using the Tactical Flexibility Stratagem to break them up I would just go with 5 man squad.. you might even be able to run a vanguard detachment for the extra command point.  

 

Tactics... Just choose an enemy unit each turn and delete it using your Leviathans.  Repeat that 3-4 times.  From a Mathhammer perspective, with rerolling 1s and hit and to wound, you should average 7-8 dead marines (in cover even) a turn with each dread.  If you face Magnus or Mortarion.. just put all 40 shots into either of them... they will both die to a statistically average round of shooting.  

 

 

About those aggressors... I dont see their purpose.  Your list is all about those dreads so you should probably add some support element or something that gives your army additional utility.  Maybe scout bikers or heavy bolter devs so you can use hellfire rounds.  

Edited November 25, 2017 by SanguinaryGuardsman

[eclipseone]

Thanks SanguinaryGuardsman!

 

I truly do not know how good the Leviathans are in practice - clearly from your comments, they must be insane! I like the look of the model as well as the stat-line/weapons. I figured for their points, plus having 14 wounds, that they "should" be at least even with a comparable 14 wound squad. Which, in turn save me from painting more models that ARENT cool!

 

I'm also guessing that this list is leaning more towards a competitive style. Let me write up a corrected list with your ideas and then maybe we could tone this down if it's that bad!

Edited November 25, 2017 by eclipseone

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Thanks SanguinaryGuardsman!

 

I truly do not know how good the Leviathans are in practice - clearly from your comments, they must be insane! I like the look of the model as well as the stat-line/weapons. I figured for their points, plus having 14 wounds, that they "should" be at least even with a comparable 14 wound squad. Which, in turn save me from painting more models that ARENT cool!

 

I'm also guessing that this list is leaning more towards a competitive style. Let me write up a corrected list with your ideas and then maybe we could tone this down if it's that bad!

It isnt that leviathans are autowin or anything... they are just really durable and put out a ton of firepower that would be difficult to counter in your typical balanced club list.  With two of those things and rerolls you are just going to wipe out most balanced lists on the first or second turn. 

 

If you are upfront with your opponents about brining those things to games I doubt anyone will object as long you are not trying to pass off any such list as non or semi competitive. 

[eclipseone]

Very well, thank you for the heads up about the Leviathans! I haven't been to a club in a long long time, so I'm not sure what kind of crazy list they may or may not have - which is fine. This is army is for me first and foremost. Again, me being a newb, I wasn't sure what to call the list

 

 

Alright my friend, with your suggestions - looks like this is leaning more toward competitive now?

 

Raven Guard 2014pts / Battalion +3CP / Spearhead +1CP (7CP Total)

 

HQ

 

Kayvaan Shrike (150pts)

Captain - Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Power Axe (98pts)

Lieutenant - Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Power Axe (83pts)

 

Troops

 

Scout Squad - 5x Scouts, Boltguns (55pts)

Scout Squad - 5x Scouts, Boltguns (55pts)

Scout Squad - 5x Scouts, Boltguns (55pts)

 

Elites

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad - 5x Vets, Jump Packs, 5x Pair of Lightning Claws (150pts)

Vanguard Veteran Squad - 5x Vets, Jump Packs, 5x Pair of Lightning Claws (150pts)

Vanguard Veteran Squad - 5x Vets, Jump Packs, 5x Dual Chainsword (90pts)

Vanguard Veteran Squad - 5x Vets, Jump Packs, 5x Dual Chainsword (90pts)

 

Fast Attack

 

Scout Bike Squad - 3x Scout Bikers (75pts)

Scout Bike Squad - 3x Scout Bikers (75pts)

 

Heavy Support

 

Devastator Squad - 4x Heavy Bolter (105pts)

Devastator Squad - 4x Las Cannon (165pts)

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought - 2x Heavy Flamer, 2x Storm Cannon Array (309pts)

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought - 2x Heavy Flamer, 2x Storm Cannon Array (309pts)

 

--------------

 

14 points too many.

 

So, how do I use: Scout Bikes / Heavy Bolter Devs? Originally the HQ's were going to fly around with the VV squads, but It seems that they're better suited for staying near the Leviathans.

 

Thanks again!

Edited November 25, 2017 by eclipseone

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Seems like you got 2 main parts to this list... Vanguard Vets running around chopping stuff up and being annoying and bigass dreads in the back blasting stuff.  Then you got some support elements and utility with the scouts.  

 

Seems like you want to deploy your dreads and devs in close proximity to your captain/LT and use your scouts to block off any deep strike silliness.  Have your vets and Shrike start every game in deepstrike.  The scout bikers should also help bubble wrap but quickly move out and be annoying.  

[Falconpilot1]

Any idea where to cut the 14 points ?

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Any idea where to cut the 14 points ?

The captain and LT... a cut jump pack from 1 or both of them.. they are backfield support.

[Damo1701]

Personally, 10-man Vanguard with claws/packs coming out of the shadows is butchery incarnate.

 

As they have no need to worry about failing a 2" charge range... poor enemy placement can also open up their backfield via Jump Pack usage, to get to the squishy things with a grenade before charging shrike to cancel overwatch, and allow the Vanguard to sweep in.

 

Having a sec9ndary unit also makes a mess of target priority on the following shooting phase...

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Personally, 10-man Vanguard with claws/packs coming out of the shadows is butchery incarnate.

 

As they have no need to worry about failing a 2" charge range... poor enemy placement can also open up their backfield via Jump Pack usage, to get to the squishy things with a grenade before charging shrike to cancel overwatch, and allow the Vanguard to sweep in.

 

Having a sec9ndary unit also makes a mess of target priority on the following shooting phase...

Only works if you go first.  If you dont then are gotta place those vets on the table which can often be really bad.

[Claws and Effect]

If you go srcond jut put the Vanguard out of LOS of sruff. Since you know who is going first before placing SFTS units.

 

If a unit really wants to shoot at them they'll have to move forward, which might ipen a hole in their flank.

[Archaeinox]

Have you considered mixing the heavy bolters and lascannons in each dev unit?

 

If someone wipes a unit of devastators, you lose 2 lascannons but still have 2 lascannons in the other, for example.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

If you go srcond jut put the Vanguard out of LOS of sruff. Since you know who is going first before placing SFTS units.

 

If a unit really wants to shoot at them they'll have to move forward, which might ipen a hole in their flank.

 

Ok... friendly disagreement.  Im a bit negative and always deploy under the assumption that im going second.  In my games ive done much better playing Raven Guard defensively and winning a shooting battle than trying to alpha strike.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

First off, to recap:

 

Your list is a 1-2 punch, a big chunk of Vanguard with buffing HQ support, backed up with a firebase of dreads and devs in your backfield castled up laying down the pain.

 

First impressions: I like it!

 

I really can't speak to the Leviathans at all (other than just a cursory glance on paper). They are obviously quite expensive, and each two Leviathan dreads costs 2 regular dreads. That being said, they leverage our Chapter Tactic quite well and they appear very durable.

 

I myself have run many lists similar to this (Dreads for AT, Vanguard for murdering infantry)

 

Here's a few thoughts:

 

1) HQs, Aura Buffs, and Assignment: Like SG mentioned, you're going to want to task your HQ's to a job. In this case either Shrike with the Vanguards and the Captain/LT with the firebase, or vice/versa. Personally I prefer Shrike with the Vanguards, as the Lightning Claws already give a reroll to wound. Also, the full reroll of Shrike is more likely to enable you to "brute force" hard to kill targets that won't be best suited to lightning claws.

 

2) If you end up doing the above, you can cut the Packs/Power Weapons from the LT and Captain, and hand out Storm Bolters (my preferred static HQ weapon). If you want the flexibility of your Captain to move out late game and deal with threats in your end zone, you could leave him equipped as such (I would advise doing that to the LT though, since he doesn't have an Invuln save he has a tendency to fall over under duress).

 

3) On the same note, you get your one free Relic, I would recommend Primarch's Wrath on the LT, or Teeth of Terra on the Captain.

 

4) I'm not sold on the double chainsword Vanguard Vets, but I can see the validity of them. 

 

5) Deployment/Drops/Gameplan: To add on to what both SG and C&E have said, you're going to want to put some thought into you "defacto" deployment. What I mean by this is you're going to want to think about what units you will always want to SFTS, what units you will always deep strike, and your drop count so that you have a proper balance/meet the restriction. As it stands right now, you're going to be deploying at least your Scouts normally (and your dreads), from there anything else is up for grabs. You may find that you need to shift the Vanguard Veterans back to 10-man units to avoid spending extra command points to SFTS them. Just some food for thought.

 

6) While what Archaeinox said is true, I find that I frequently deploy my units in such a way that target opportunity will be limited. What I mean by that is if a unit is all lascannons, I will deploy them in such a way to have the most armored targets to shoot at. If you end up mix/matching weapons, while you can split fire and as a result can keep one type or the other combat effective longer, I find that you may run into issues where one type of weapon just won't be able to see the preferred target. To each their own.

 

7) Overall when I look at your list, it looks a little heavy on the anti-infantry and a little light on anti-tank. That being said, I don't even have stats in front of me for those Stormcannon Arrays, so maybe I am undervaluing your output.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

1 stormcannon array is Heavy 10 str 7 ap -2 dmg 2 on a model with BS 2+.

 

Some sample mathhammer...

 

40 shots (both dreads firing) will do on average...

20 wounds to a Wraithknight, T8, 24 wounds 3+

13 wounds to a Wraithknight with Fortune.

15 wounds to a Lander Raider

30 wounds to a Rhino/Razorback/Predator

20 wounds to a Leman Russ or Baneblade variant

20 wounds to Mortarion (dead)

12 wounds to Magnus with 3++ and reroll invulns of 1

19 wounds to Magnus (dead) with 3++ and reroll invulns of 1

38 wounds to a conscript blob (wiped)

30 wounds to a mob of botz (wiped)

 

All of this was assuming reroll hits and wounds 1 with the captain/LT aura using http://www.mathhammer8thed.com/

[eclipseone]

Thanks again guys for helpin me out!