Have Deathwatch players adopted Primaris Marines?

[Ishagu]

I'm curious if you guys are making plans to include the new Marines in your forces?

 

Chapter Approved has made Intercessors, Inceptors and Aggressors very attractive. Hellblasters have always been excellent also.

With the new Relic is it possible to bring Hellblasters in from reserve 9" from an enemy unit?

[Moostick]

I treat them as like with allies.

 

I'll use them, but if I take more than a quarter in points of them, I might as well play another faction (in this case, vanilla SM). I do not like how GW is basically telling us, from their inaction with DW, that we either use FW or Primaris if we want to be even semi-competitive.

[sockwithaticket]

Nope. I went DW because I like the idea of spec ops marines with bits of equipment the others don't have as well as the painting/modelling challenge of doing some other chapters. If DW Primaris are identical to their codex equivalents, I don't really see the point.

[Vel'Cona]

I have no plans to incorporate Primaris into the DW I've built thus far, though I'm probably in the minority that want to keep them in a "pure" Primaris C: SM list rather than the other way around ("pure" DW).  One thing I hope C: DW does is allow us to take Kill Teams with blended Primaris marines, including Hellblasters/Reivers, though I'm not sure GW would go for that despite how much more sense it makes :)

[Mobius0288]

I'll take the other perspective. I've incorporated Primaris but never more than half of the army. With the new chapter approved, hellblasters and intercessors went down a couple points.... so the intercessors make some decent basic troop choices. Because of this, I'm looking less at Reivers and more towards veteran vanguards personally (dual pistols and thunder hammers). Ultimately you'll have to weigh the intercessors against veterans carrying the now cheaper storm shields.

 

You won't be able to put those hellblasters in reserves unless there's a specific strategem we get in the new book, but I definitely plan to try and take regular hellblasters and "teleport" them across the board next to my jump pack captain carrying the relic.

 

I'd probably even be willing to foot-slog a unit of intercessors and assault-hellblasters, followed by a primaris apothecary.

 

Inceptors have gone down in price slightly.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Mobius0288

[Aothaine]

I'd say the primaris apothecary is an auto include in most DW lists. But the other stuff I'm not to sure about. Losing the special ammo can be really painful. But having a cheep troop unit to hold back line objectives and still be able to fire.

[Mobius0288]

I'd say the primaris apothecary is an auto include in most DW lists.

I thought that initially. He's definitely a great healer. I don't get too many revives in because either I fail the roll or the unit he sits with gets wiped. If you're walking a pretty large kill team (7-8) with termies up the middle, I'd say he's perfect. I usually run him with my heavy hellblasters and primaris captain in the back but my opponents know to go after the hellblasters first.

[Muckwarrior]

I have. Hellblasters have made me become incredibly competitive. Reivers are a great, low cost, choice for Elite slots. Fluff-wise, I figured a lot of the Unnumbered Sons would join the Deathwatch rather than join their chapters, especially if there was any anomousity from their chapters.

[Irbis]

I'm curious if you guys are making plans to include the new Marines in your forces?

 

Chapter Approved has made Intercessors, Inceptors and Aggressors very attractive. Hellblasters have always been excellent also.

With the new Relic is it possible to bring Hellblasters in from reserve 9" from an enemy unit?

 

Hahahahaha. Include?

 

Sadly, unless you want to use lots of DW specific gear, primaris stats make half of DW units obsolete. Why take bolter vets to camp objective when primaris bolt rifle squad has twice the durability and longer range? Yes, yes, special ammo, but bolt rifles have -1 ap anyway and unless enemy comes really close, like 9 inches, you can't use best DW ammunition so primaris gun will be almost equal. Then, however, since DW rules are kinda lacklustre, you're left wondering why you're not using something better, like Salamander or Raven Guard counts-as, with vets being not-sternguard and primaris your actual troops.

 

The only way I can see it changing is for DW to actually get a good 'chapter tactic' pronto, and possibly special ammo on primaris, until then, you're likely better using C:SM rules...

[Thanatos31]

Having a cheap troop unit to hold an objective ( 10 wounds with 5 models with decent shots&range) has proven quite useful. 
The cost of that team is 90 points which is super competitive with our normal model prices. 

Also hellblasters as a firebase with a watch cap/master around have been very good for my games thus far.

Apothecary helps too, bit hamstrung by not having a transport for him though unfortunately.

[Kargrym]

Thinking about what the most powerful thing to use a beacon angelus combo with. 

 

Corvus with Watch Master and Frag Kill Team in it, Hellblaster Squad in the backfield.

Corvus moves up, turn 2 drop the kill team and watch master run up assault, and beacon the hellblaster squad from the backfield to the front, thats a lot of firepower in the killbox. Like everything within 12" should be dead.

 

That might get me to put primaris in my list.

[Moostick]

Unfortunately that seems like a one time trick and it won't work twice. Someone in the know can run a cheap unit(s) close to the Corvus on their turn to deny this until at least T3. Or later if you can't successfully kill all the units nearby.

[LunarSol]

They are very effective, but much like TAC Razorback spam you're talking about something very effective for Deathwatch that can trivially be made more effective elsewhere.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I have not really tried adding primaris to my deathwatch. I can't get over the scale difference I like primaris models it just they're almost as tall as the old dreads lol. At some point I will start a force probably with wolves. Also hoping that they get a bit more grim dark and have some additional flaws maybe a shorter lifespan (would be an interesting change at least)

[Toomanyprojects]

I've sort of jumped in with both feet, mostly as a way of getting a lot of plasma in the army, and adding to its tactical flexibility with the apothecary.

 

The Hellblasters are damn good tank / elite hunters. Combine with a watch Master or captain to get re-rolls on those pesky 1s to hit and shoot a Leman Russ to death in one round of shooting. The Beacon Angelis will allow them to teleport into rapid fire range nice and quickly, and they've jsut gotten better in CA with their points decrease. Well worth it, and there isnt really anything in the DW heavy support that I would consider worth taking anyway.

 

 

 

I'll admit that the Inceptors are here because of rule of cool, but they do add a bit of kick to the army and can drop down / move about more than almost anything else in the DW army. A good choice, I tend not to overcharge them though unless they happen to have got in range of the Watch Captain / Master re-rolls. With the CA update, a unit of three with plasma can be fielded surprisingly cheaply as well.

 

 

The apothecary is there for the obvious reason, he is the only one that the Deathwatch can get their mitts on. I kind of expect that to change when the codex drops, but for the time being he's the only guy who can put wounds back on our units. A bargain at 68 pts too 

 

 

[shanewatts]

With the CA changes, you have to take Primaris now. They are more or less better in every way.

[Prot]

^ Agreed.

 

Before point reductions you'd never see plasma-ceptors on the board. Now they're on par and surpass a lot of what the Kill Teams will give you for point value.

[Mobius0288]

Better then vanguard with plasma/bolt pistols or dual plasma pistols?

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

Three plasma Inceptors are 177 pts, and that's 6d3 plasma shots at 18" range.

A PP/BP Vanguard Vet is 28pts, six of those set you back 168pts. That gives you 6 plasma shots at 12" and 6 SIA bolt pistol shots. You're at the very bottom of the bell curve for Plasma shots, and although the SIA BP shots are nice to have for free, the lack of AP really starts to hurt.

 

A double PP Vanguard Vet is 35pts, you can get 5 for 175pts. 10 Plasma shots at 12. I just ran some quick simulations, and the Inceptors will only have 9 or less shots about 10.7% of the time. 

 

The extra range on the Exterminators can't be discounted, and the T5 of the Inceptors is a nice boon. The Inceptors are far more vulnerable to overheats, even with a reroll, and each overheat is extremely significant. The Inceptors also slower, and are slightly worse in combat, with 7 attacks instead of 11/13. 

 

I think the damage potential of the Inceptors brings them over the edge.

[Mobius0288]

A double PP Vanguard Vet is 35pts, you can get 5 for 175pts. 10 Plasma shots at 12. I just ran some quick simulations, and the Inceptors will only have 9 or less shots about 10.7% of the time. 

 

You mean 12 shots at 12, since there's 6 VV?

 

I think either way, the best bet is going to be deploy a jump jet captain with both groups. And if we're deep striking, the range doesn't matter all that much. It will definitely matter if they survive the onslaught and seek another target. But that 12 inch movement for the VV should get you where you need to go.

 

I'm not really arguing for one over the other, just trying to see the best usage of points will be.

[Moostick]

Even just the assault bolters are amazing now. 135 points for a guaranteed 18 HB shots.

 

Gunslinger VVs are pretty pointless at this moment. Actually, just about any of our non-Primaris units are in comparison to Primaris right now.

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

 

A double PP Vanguard Vet is 35pts, you can get 5 for 175pts. 10 Plasma shots at 12. I just ran some quick simulations, and the Inceptors will only have 9 or less shots about 10.7% of the time. 

 

You mean 12 shots at 12, since there's 6 VV?

 

I think either way, the best bet is going to be deploy a jump jet captain with both groups. And if we're deep striking, the range doesn't matter all that much. It will definitely matter if they survive the onslaught and seek another target. But that 12 inch movement for the VV should get you where you need to go.

 

I'm not really arguing for one over the other, just trying to see the best usage of points will be.

 

 

 

10 shots, as 2PP VV are more expensive, so the closest analog is 5 at 175 pts.

 

Range actually matters more than you think, I have 10 BP/PP Vanguards and it's actually kind of tricky to get them all more then 9 from their target but also within 12". You also can't use the best ammo in the Bolt Pistols. The opponent's bubble wrapping can be very effective. 

[Mobius0288]

 

You also can't use the best ammo in the Bolt Pistols. The opponent's bubble wrapping can be very effective. 

 

Ya, both valid points to consider. This talk definitely has me considering Inceptors. Good timing too because I was going to go to the store this week and work on some dual pistol vanguard guys. And actually, it seems like it could synergize with the Angelis Beacon relic for a good alpha strike - deep strike a jump pack Captain and Inceptor unit, beacon over a unit of 10 Hellblasters (or whatever your flavor of unit). You just dealt high damage and created a nice size flank, while your blackstars/landraiders are pushing up the middle.

 

 

 Actually, just about any of our non-Primaris units are in comparison to Primaris right now.

 

And since you brought up that point, though a slightly different comparison... we've kind of developed the standard stalker kill team on this website (3 stalkers, 2 missile launchers). It still works wonders but what do you guys think about Intercessors being the new stalker unit? Or should they just get the default bolter and walk up the field? If use my thought above to the max extent, maybe just giving them the default bolter and walking them to the objectives could be adequate.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Mobius0288

[Moostick]

To chart out the differences between Primaris and equivalent, compared to minimum sized units of Primaris. Outside of transport options, it's definitely sad seeing it in direct comparison in terms of output/durability (i.e., T and W; even number of models):

 

--------------------------------

5 Hellblasters - 165

• 5/10 shots total - S7, AP4, 1D, 30", Rapid Fire 1

5 Vets w/ PG - 160

• 5/10 shots total - S7, AP3, 1D, 24", Rapid Fire 1

--------------------------------

3 Inceptors w/ AB - 145

• 18 shots total - S5, AP1, 1D, 18", Assault 3

5 Vets w/ HB - 145

• 15 shots total - S5 AP1, 1D, 36", Heavy 3

--------------------------------

3 Inceptors w/ PE - 177

• 6 to 18 shots total - S7, AP3, 1D, 18", Assault D3

5 VV w/ 2x PP - 175

• 10 shots - S7, AP3, 1D, 12", Pistol 1 (x2)

-------------------------------

5 Intecessors - 90

• 5/10 shots - S4, AP1, 1D, 30", Rapid Fire 1

5 Vets - 95

• 5/10 shots - S4, AP *, 1D, 24", Rapid Fire 1 (You guys know the ammos)

-------------------------------

3 Aggressors w/ ABG/FSL - 111

• 18 shots + 3 to 18 shots- S4, AP0, 1D, 18" Assault 6 +D6

3 Agressors w/ FSG - 117

• 6 to 36 shots - S4, AP0, 1D, 8", Assault 2D6 flamer

4 Vets w/ Flamer - 112

• 4 to 24 shots - S4, AP0, 1D, 8", Assault D6 flamer

[Mobius0288]

Appreciate the time writing out the comparisons. It definitely shows what could be worthwhile.

 

Definitely note that for Inceptors vs Vet w/ HB, you can only have 4 heavy weapon choices per kill team.

 

And for the aggressor comparison - ya the dudes have more wounds, but I wonder if I could get more shots off (since it's AP0 / 1D) with Vets and storm bolters. 105 pts? 10 shots @ 24" or 20 shots @ 12." I don't know.... aggressors are weird to me. I can see them being more nifty in regular space marines.