Autocannon Havoc - are they now worth it?

[Iron_Within]

Autocannons have dropped 5 points in chapter approved making them arguably more viable. But are they viable enough vs heavy bolters and lascannons?

[THUNDERFISTS]

Primaris just got cheaper overall too so we could definitely see more of them around once CA is out. Autocannons burn them up real nice. So do Butcher Cannons/Arrays which also got cheaper.

 

Bikes also got cheaper and autocannons are perfect weapons against them. They definitely went from the "take it sometimes maybe" to a legitimate option. It would depend most on your local metal if you see a lot of the two wound units running around.

[the jeske]

6man squads with 3 were ok, even before the change. And I can imagine that with the changes that happened someone could be using them, specially those that have to rebuild their armies. It could also be meta influenced too. lot of IG/tyranid/primaris playing people make them more valid, then the usual meta armies.

[ChazSexington]

I see them as more viable. While they weren't a high-level competitive choice, they were never a bad choice, imho. 

[Lexington]

Haven't tried it yet, but it seems to me that a unit of Havocs with four ACs and a dose of Endless Cacophany could do some real damage.

[Closet Skeleton]

Mine always seemed like a waste of points, they made my three strong throw-away unit of flamer bikes look good because at least those made an impression while doing little. With plasma gun havoks still being cheaper I wouldn't call the autocannon ones good, they're just less points wasted. s7 -1 ap is better than nothing but won't do much to marines in cover (if you usually fight primaris marines and you're an Iron Warriors player things might be different).

 

If autocannons are the best thing you have to use endless cacophony on you're better off using veterans of the long war twice. Chaos stratagems are good enough to make anything good, doesn't mean the base unit is good.

[Panzer]

Mine always seemed like a waste of points, they made my three strong throw-away unit of flamer bikes look good because at least those made an impression while doing little. With plasma gun havoks still being cheaper I wouldn't call the autocannon ones good, they're just less points wasted. s7 -1 ap is better than nothing but won't do much to marines in cover (if you usually fight primaris marines and you're an Iron Warriors player things might be different).

 

If autocannons are the best thing you have to use endless cacophony on you're better off using veterans of the long war twice. Chaos stratagems are good enough to make anything good, doesn't mean the base unit is good.

Well yeah against Marines you obviously want something with good AP. It's more of a weapon against something with decent toughness and bad-ish armor (aka Tyranids, Sentinals, T'au Piranhas, etc.). A niche application in most cases unfortunately.

[Galron]

I used a squad this past weekend just to see how they did and was impressed. They hit a Rubric terminator squad pretty hard, killed most of a Tzangor squad, hurt a brimstone squad pretty bad, and finishing touches on an exalted sorcerer. I plan on using them in the future, over heavy bolter havocs when I have to choose.

[ChazSexington]

 

Mine always seemed like a waste of points, they made my three strong throw-away unit of flamer bikes look good because at least those made an impression while doing little. With plasma gun havoks still being cheaper I wouldn't call the autocannon ones good, they're just less points wasted. s7 -1 ap is better than nothing but won't do much to marines in cover (if you usually fight primaris marines and you're an Iron Warriors player things might be different).

 

If autocannons are the best thing you have to use endless cacophony on you're better off using veterans of the long war twice. Chaos stratagems are good enough to make anything good, doesn't mean the base unit is good.

Well yeah against Marines you obviously want something with good AP. It's more of a weapon against something with decent toughness and bad-ish armor (aka Tyranids, Sentinals, T'au Piranhas, etc.). A niche application in most cases unfortunately.

 

 

I think their niche is a bit bigger. They also have a role against  anything with good invulnerable and armour saves with multiple wounds, such as Loyalist Terminators (and anything near Azrael), APCs, and Eldar vehicles with Invulnerable saves. E.g. SS-Terminators just go 3++ in case of anything with AP, which means Autocannons are perfect for taking out Terminators. They can slap a few wounds off a Rhino and are points efficient against Eldar vehicles with Invulnerable saves, as you're just triggering their invulnerable save as opposed to what a lascannon, melta or plasma weapon will do. To do a little mathhammer, Lascannons only have 1 shot, while an Autocannon has 2. Against something T7 3+/4++ you're looking at 

 

Lascannons 2/3 hits x 2/3 wounds x 1/2 saves x 3.5 = 0,78 average wounds

Autocannons 4/3 hits x 1/2 wounds x 1/2 saves x 2 = 0,68 average wounds

 

Factor in the cost, and they're doing the same amount of damage per point (0,02). 

 

I don't think they're the best option in many cases (I mean, we have Death Hex if we really want something with an Invulnerable save to die), but they do have a not too small niche where they are points efficient.

[Panzer]

 

 

Mine always seemed like a waste of points, they made my three strong throw-away unit of flamer bikes look good because at least those made an impression while doing little. With plasma gun havoks still being cheaper I wouldn't call the autocannon ones good, they're just less points wasted. s7 -1 ap is better than nothing but won't do much to marines in cover (if you usually fight primaris marines and you're an Iron Warriors player things might be different).

 

If autocannons are the best thing you have to use endless cacophony on you're better off using veterans of the long war twice. Chaos stratagems are good enough to make anything good, doesn't mean the base unit is good.

Well yeah against Marines you obviously want something with good AP. It's more of a weapon against something with decent toughness and bad-ish armor (aka Tyranids, Sentinals, T'au Piranhas, etc.). A niche application in most cases unfortunately.

 

 

I think their niche is a bit bigger. They also have a role against  anything with good invulnerable and armour saves with multiple wounds, such as Loyalist Terminators (and anything near Azrael), APCs, and Eldar vehicles with Invulnerable saves. E.g. SS-Terminators just go 3++ in case of anything with AP, which means Autocannons are perfect for taking out Terminators. They can slap a few wounds off a Rhino and are points efficient against Eldar vehicles with Invulnerable saves, as you're just triggering their invulnerable save as opposed to what a lascannon, melta or plasma weapon will do. To do a little mathhammer, Lascannons only have 1 shot, while an Autocannon has 2. Against something T7 3+/4++ you're looking at 

 

Lascannons 2/3 hits x 2/3 wounds x 1/2 saves x 3.5 = 0,78 average wounds

Autocannons 4/3 hits x 1/2 wounds x 1/2 saves x 2 = 0,68 average wounds

 

Factor in the cost, and they're doing the same amount of damage per point (0,02). 

 

I don't think they're the best option in many cases (I mean, we have Death Hex if we really want something with an Invulnerable save to die), but they do have a not too small niche where they are points efficient.

 

Fair enough, however against Terminators anything up to AP-3 is still good unless they take Stormshields so maybe not exactly that unit but definitely units with good invul saves.

[ChazSexington]

 

Fair enough, however against Terminators anything up to AP-3 is still good unless they take Stormshields so maybe not exactly that unit but definitely units with good invul saves.

 

 

 

Aye, in my meta, every Corpse-Emperor Terminator comes with a Storm Shield (or Cataphractii), in addition to vehicles with invulnerable saves (Space Wolf Dreadnoughts with Storm Shields, Leviathans, tricksy, false Eldarses), which is colouring me a bit. I need either Mortal Wounds, Death Hex with high AP and damage weapons, or cheap weight of fire with decent strength. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by ChazSexington

[Lord Asvaldir]

In that sort of environment I could definetly see a little use for autocannons, especially if you aren't running a sorc that can easily get death hex off your chosen target. For eldar vehicles especially I think autocannons excel, since anything t6/7 with an invul save is their ideal target opposed to a lascannon. 

[Stross]

I got the idea how to make them work better against tougher models. If you have Mortarion in your army and your enemy have many T7 models, then he can put them down to toughness 6 and it will 3+ to wound. Can be handy

[Commissar K.]

My honest awnser to the question is:

- No, not for competitive tournament play where choices are filtered to having specific awnsers with specific weapons who deal with that threat.
- Yes for casual gaming and general fun at the club, store or home. Reason being that as said they arn't bad but they arn't particulary good against anything either.

Going in between these types of play will also lead to in between awnsers :) If you want to add them because you think they look cool, go for it. What I've found to be generally true for Chaos is that our anti-infantry choices are many and or long range anti-heavy support is rare. Because of that if I'd where to pick Havocs I'd end up going Missle Launchers or Lascannons all the way, we don't have the Razorbacks or allround cheap troops with the same powerful choices.

[Sonoftherubric21]

My thoughts; 

 

I swear by them in 8th. A smaller havoc squad, as jeske had mentioned a 6 man with 3 autocannons, or even now an 8 man with 4.  Not bad at all and they certainly dont break the bank. 

 

164 for an 8 man squad, OR 138 if you wanted to be stingy and drop 2 fodder marines.

 

Mark for slannesh, go to town with autocannons.  Anything T8 beneifts from Vets of the Long War on them to help out in a pinch, anything lower will be severely damaged by them. My Black Legion make heavy use of the buggers and opponents almost always throw stuff at them disproportionate to their actual points cost / threat.  (D2, good range worries people) 

 

In a hyper-competitive meta would I use them?  Maybe...... in anything less like a Casual to semi-competitive meta? every time I play my Black Legion. 

[Closet Skeleton]

Autocannon havoks are okay because they're cheap and you can throw them in there. Stratagems can only be used once per turn so they're better on big expensive things not mediocre inexpensive things.

 

Double tapping autocannon havoks are good but 20 strong units of bolter chaos marines are good with endless cacophony and veterans of the long war on them. You should build your army around your stratagems not bring out the stratagems to justify so so units.

 

If everything but my autocannon havoks are dead then I'll spend command points on them but I'm probably also wishing that I spent them earlier on something else.