Can you be a true 40K fan...

[Scribe]

Wow, SpecialIssueAmmo, I got goosebumps reading that.

 

In short to b1soul, no. Grimdark is woven into the core of 40K. They literally are one and the same to me.

 

If you don't like Grimdark, if you want less Wrath of Iron, then you want 40K to be something different than intended.

 

'Everything ends....why not Man?'

 

I love that.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Yes..... I agree with Brother Scribe. Grimdark is woven into the fabric of 40k. Without that two minutes to midnight feel, it just wouldn't be 40k. Besides no one says the End of Everything like the Brits. Who else is going to write this stuff so well?..... Milton Bradley?..... I don't think so 

[Marshal Loss]

SpecialIssueAmmo knocked it out of the park. Couldn't agree more. Grimdark all the way.

[veterannoob]

It seems to be doing pretty well. Although I’ve not seen sales figures. Is there a suggestion that 40k Black Library sales are poor?

I'm pretty sure BL is doing just fine.

[Jagus Kumkani]

The grimdark is what makes 40k....well 40k.

Without the nightmare-ish oblivion of the setting, it would have nothing to hook potential readers/hobbyists.

The scale and horror of the setting keeps me buying books and models because of that darkness as well as the small glimmer of hope that humanity still has despite its inevitable doom.

If you lived in that reality, wouldn't you fight for the sake of survival, even if it was futile?

There's an urge to exist...to survive, and that's 40k.

[Plaguecaster]

I disagree yes grimdark is an essential core of 40K but not every BL publication needs it smothered in Grimdark with it pouring out every single page like with ones like Wrath of Iron otherwise it gets boring pretty quick. Don't get me wrong I love the Grimdark but I already know that it's present since it's always there I don't need every page crying "Doom, Doom, Doom" since it more feels more like Gir singing the doom song from invader Zim which lessens the story when it's not needed just look at ones like the Gaunt's Ghosts or Helsreach novels which is probably one of my favourite BL series, yes there is some aspects of Grimdark but ultimately it's more of a war story about the valiant few against the great enemy, its finding hope in such hopelessness that makes them great

 

Let's use Metal music as an example of Grimdark, you can have different types of Metal which may not be viewed by certain fans of the genre as true metal or not heavy enough like power metal but no matter how you argue it doesn't change the fact it's still metal just like Wrath of Iron has a different tone compared to other novels like Dark Imperium or a Gaunt's Ghosts one it's still Grimdark just to different degrees

 

Also I really wonder what others consider true Grimdark as generally I don't view any marine oriented books as true Grimdark, true Grimdark is reserved ones like 13 hours or Dead man Walking now those are true novels of Grimdark with the hopelessness of the common man against an unbeatable opponent with nothing they can do since it's useless. I also don't see the fears, Dark Imperium as an event still has the Grimdark 40K always had, yes the actual novel may of been one sided and yes Guilliman with Cawl may of created the Primaris to help push back the Imperium's enemies but it's still not enough to stop the Imperiums slow death just look at Shroud of Night the Imperium is screwed even with the Primaris they can't always win since their enemies are never ending and coming from every direction.

[Marshal Rohr]

Grimdark is that feeling you get in your stomach when the protagonists can make a choice between A and B, while the reader so clearly sees how A will be the more beneficial option and the character chooses B. It’s Robb Stark marrying Jayne Westerling and MacBeth indulging his wife and Logan using that serum and on and on. That’s not to say you can’t have a few moments of awesome. The Macharian Crusades are a good example of a big win for the Imperium, and things that that are cool and fun to explore. It’s sick seeing the Imperium in its glory. Unfortunately, 40K works best as the Sabbat World’s, Vraks, Badab, and Armageddon. It doesn’t work as the Gathering Storm or even the old 13th Black Crusade because those are too big to really feel the way the setting should make you feel.

[Scribe]

I'll never understand 'it would get boring'.

 

The story, the characters, these things are what make a book boring or not. We have plenty of examples to choose from in BL fiction lol!

 

At its core though, in its bones, 40K is not 40K, if its not Grimdark. Its THE inalienable truth of the setting.

 

Man is doomed. Today, tomorrow, 10,000 years from now. That is the backdrop against which all the stories exist, and without it, we may as well be reading Star Trek, or Star Wars, or some other Space Opera. 

 

The comment on Metal is probably a good one. Power, Black, Death, whatever, Metal is Metal.

 

In the end though, you know Metal and you know Country.

 

40K is GrimDark, its not Star Wars.

[Phoebus]

Scribe,

 

Yeah, I don't get that, either. With respect, that's little different than saying, "There's just too much organized crime in Sopranos," or, "Eventually, all the betrayals and backstabbing are making Game of Thrones boring and predictable."

 

Marshal Rohr,

 

I would offer that Grimdark is that feeling you get in your stomach when you realize that the protagonists don't really have a good choice to make... or even if they do, it's being made within an insane context.

[Plaguecaster]

I'll never understand 'it would get boring'.

 

The story, the characters, these things are what make a book boring or not. We have plenty of examples to choose from in BL fiction lol!

 

At its core though, in its bones, 40K is not 40K, if its not Grimdark. Its THE inalienable truth of the setting.

 

Man is doomed. Today, tomorrow, 10,000 years from now. That is the backdrop against which all the stories exist, and without it, we may as well be reading Star Trek, or Star Wars, or some other Space Opera.

 

The comment on Metal is probably a good one. Power, Black, Death, whatever, Metal is Metal.

 

In the end though, you know Metal and you know Country.

 

40K is GrimDark, its not Star Wars.

Wait what :huh: Dont know why you brought up Star Wars as I never was saying 40K novels shouldn't have Grimdark I was simply agreeing with the OP not every novel needs to like Wrath of Iron yet still can be great BL reads (if you read all my post) I know I'm repeating myself but look at the Gaunt's Ghosts saga or Macharius which are great examples of it being the case whilst they still have some aspects of Grimdark at the core it isn't the main focus of the novels as the OP said "the Light amongst the darkness" which suits these novels but they still are great novels even with less Grimdark compared to Wrath.

 

Don't understand how it would get boring??? Then how about this, Wrath of Iron is a great read showing true Grimdark at its best with the Iron Hands showing how callous and uncaring about their allies they are in their attempts to stop the daemonic incursion by any means necessary not caring about how many losses they sustain. Now Wrath of Iron works with Iron hands as the main because of their nature but would it work with other chapters like the Blood Angels, Space Wolves or even Salamanders if they did exactly the same thing the hands did??? Of course not even with the same Grimdark it wouldn't be as good hell it wouldn't even make sense even if it was true Grimdark , that's what I'm saying all novels have some form of Grimdark being part of the 40K setting by too much and it can be unnesseary especially if it doesn't suit the novel's story , would any of the Gaunt novels be any good if everyone of them had the same levels of Grimdark like Wrath, of course not the first few would be good but it would be pretty damn boring if all 13+ books were like that it just wouldn't be Guant's ghosts

 

Yes the universe is doomed, the Imperium is doomed, humanity is doomed, everything is god damn doomed in 40K, everyone knows that, there was no one was ever denying it Scribe. However there are still victories, battles where even though the under dogs have no chance they can win they still fight and sometimes miraculously defeat their enemies and by the gods you have no soul if you say they aren't true 40K because they have less Grimdark than other books . Know no Fear is a great novel showing Grimdark with how the Ultramarines are almost suffering complete extinction at the hands of the Word Bearers who have decimated the legion, Is the novel considered no longer Grimdark at the end of the book where the Ultramarines managed to turn the tides on the Word bearers who end up being annihilated by the vengeful Ultramarines and their Primarch in a non Grimdark way , of course not, not every novel needs it in every page or chapter, just look at any of the Cain novels it's based on the Grimdark of 40k but it's as far as away from Grimdark when you compare it to stuff like Wrath or Storm of Iron but it's still a great BL novel with multiple novels in the series

[b1soul]

I think we're all older (at least adult) fans/hobbyists.

 

Frankly, I'm not convinced that younger fans care about Grimdark, or that Grimdark is what sells models or books.

 

Great stories without Grimdark could be written in the 40K sandbox. Garbage stories smothered with Grimdark could be written in the 40K sandbox. Grimdark has no bearing on quality.

 

I do concede that Grimdark is a major distinction between 40K and StarWars/StarTrek/StarCraft/Halo, etc.

 

Though I'm not sure if that distinction is why I like 40K the most.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want 40K to go full Noblebright...but hopelessness in and of itself has little appeal to me. I prefer more uncertainty, rather than the Imperium is fated to be consumed by Chaos in the near-future.

 

EDIT: Some have said that Grimdark hasn't featured that heavily in the literature...if that's the case, kinda hard to argue that Grimdark is absolutely essential to the essence of 40K.

[Servant of Dante]

I think i count as a younger fan, and I can say the more I think on it in the past months the more I agree with what SpecialIssueAmmo, so we’re out there :P

 

So like I said what I want out of the setting is what SpecialIssue and Phobos are saying, whether that’s “the grimdark” is up to you.

 

But! If you ask yourself “do I like 40K” and the answer is “yes” then you’re as much of a “true fan” as anyone. It doesn’t matter what 40k is or means to you or what you find interesting or boring in it. Different people like different things about stuff.

 

@Plaguecaster: yes good guys and miraculous victories and happy endings are fine and don’t conflict with the overal grimdark was of the setting. There are plenty of light moments in the galaxy, just that the overall tone is one of dark (it’s been said better by others in this very thread)

[b1soul]

I think i count as a younger fan, and I can say the more I think on it in the past months the more I agree with what SpecialIssueAmmo, so we’re out there :P

What's your age range?

 

It goes without saying that there are always exceptions to a general rule.

 

I concede though that it's only my gut feeling that most younger fans (16 and younger) don't care about Grimdark motifs. I could be wrong. Perhaps people could share there anecdotal experiences regarding how younger fans think.

 

@Plaguecaster: yes good guys and miraculous victories and happy endings are fine and don’t conflict with the overal grimdark was of the setting. There are plenty of light moments in the galaxy, just that the overall tone is one of dark (it’s been said better by others in this very thread)

Against-the-odds victories have often been portrayed in BL literature. Usually, we're reminded that for that one victory, the Imperium suffered a hundred defeats and that victory has no significance on a macro-scale, i.e. it does not change the minute-to-midnight situation

[mc warhammer]

wasn't there an old post or blog entry by adb, that said this is 40k. says everything you need to about the grims and the darks

 

[Sandlemad]

Dunno about the RT cover but there was definitely (also?) something online or in WD about this 3rd ed. Crimson Fists illustration being emblematic of 40k.

 

It is a glorious last stand but over on the righthand side of the image there are three missiles about to hit, condemning all these heroic space marines to a sudden death. There's an element of desperate heroism there - admittedly by brutal religious fanatics - but they are doomed. So is the wider imperium. That's still grimdark to my mind.

 

EDIT: Hmm, they don't like hotlinking. Link added but odds are you already know the one. EDIT: And again.

[mc warhammer]

Dunno about the RT cover but there was definitely (also?) something online or in WD about this 3rd ed. Crimson Fists illustration being emblematic of 40k.

 

It is a glorious last stand but over on the righthand side of the image there are three missiles about to hit, condemning all these heroic space marines to a sudden death. There's an element of desperate heroism there - admittedly by brutal religious fanatics - but they are doomed. So is the wider imperium. That's still grimdark to my mind.

 

EDIT: Hmm, they don't like hotlinking. Link added but odds are you already know the one. EDIT: And again.

oh yeah, linking that image almost broke me

[Gaugamela]

Hey, first-time poster here so please don't burn me. :P

 

I think that it depends on what one considers "Grimdark" to be. To me, the grim dark is the atmosphere, the backdrop in which the Imperium is set.

What defines the grim darkness for me is not the hopelessness of Mankind ever winning or of Mankind being doomed to fail and become a footnote in history. In fact, I consider that to be quite unimaginative as well.

 

To me what defines the grim darkness of 40k are several factors. The gothic architecture. The feeling of desperation in Mankind due to being assailed by all sides (external threats and Chaos as an internal threat and a reflection of Mankind's inner demons). The de-humanization and absolute disregard for the value of human life in a galaxy of laughing and homicidal gods, voracious and bloodthirsty xenos, and uncaring automatons. The effects this has on the psyche of humans and on the building of the Imperium is pervasive.

 

The fact that for Mankind to survive in these times it has basically shunned and even forgot Enlightnement ideals such as human rights, the scientific method and reverted to a state of religious fanaticism and paranoia is grim dark enough for me.

 

The fact that despite that to survive and thrive in the Imperium one has to basically sacrifice that which makes one human. And even then, it's not guaranteed that this is enough. Only Space Marines have good survival possibilities against any of Mankind's enemies, and they're not human anymore. The Primarchs, which were the paragons and demigods of Mankind either disappeared or sold their souls to the demons that afflict Mankind. The slow descent of Eisenhorn into damnation is the perfect example of this to me. He slowly had to sacrifice his friends and his love to guarantee salvation against the daemons that assail Mankind. And in the end feeding them and continuing this vicious cycle.

 

What is grim dark? To me it's not grim dark to know that despite all the fight and desperation from the Imperium, they are doomed to disappear. To me grim dark means that in these dark times even with the Imperium having to discard every human ideal to guarantee the survival of the human species, it is barely enough to hold the tide. That even after having sacrificed so much there is no deliverance awaiting in return for these sacrifices. There will only be more war, more bloodshed, more tears, more broken dreams and lofty ideals. To me, that is more tragic than having Mankind becoming extinct. Mankind in the far future, are just animals scurrying for survival, no better than the Tyranids or the Orks.

 

The Emperor wanted more, Primarchs like Guilliman, Vulkan, Dorn, the Khan, Magnus or Corax wanted more. Even them were uncapable of guaranteeing that. That's the tragedy of the setting. War, and bloodshed are eternal and Hell is real. It's not the Warp. It's the Milky Way Galaxy and that's why it is grim dark.

 

If Mankind disappeared would the grim darkness disappear? No, even if the Tau were Mankind's heirs with their lofty ideals and beliefs in the Greater Good, they would soon face the same situation that Mankind faced.

[Scribe]

Plaguecaster, I'm more in agreement with you, than disagreement.

 

The difference I think is you saying 'its all still 40k'

 

While I say 'its all still Grimdark'.

 

Death, Black, or Power, just give me Metal.

 

Wrath of Iron, The Black Legion, or Scars, just give me GrimDark.

 

The original question and answer stands.

 

Can you like 40K but not GrimDark? No.

 

It doesn't have to be Wrath of Iron, just like it doesn't need to be Cradle of Filth first thing in the morning! :)

 

At its core however, laced through its DNA, 40K is a GrimDark setting, and everything should be done and written to that cornerstone of truth.

[b1soul]

The original question is actually...

can you like 40K but prefer less Grimdark than there currently is

[Servant of Dante]

well you certainly can, to go back to age, I got into 40k when I was about 15 (not so many years ago, I consider myself a young player since the norm seems to be mid 30s and older :P). At the time, my interest in Blood Angels (my first army) leaned heavily on the grandiose and glorious. Of course, the black rage and red thirst also fascinated me, it was the nobility in spite of the flaw that I liked.

 

It took me a while to get used the the fact that there isn’t really hope for the Imperium, I mostly liked the idea that, while it wasn’t actually likely, the Emperor could be reborn when the golden throne failed. Not that I don’t like the golden throne and all the grimdark there, the first 40k art I saw was the stuff in the front of the 3E rulebook (in the six-fi section of a used book store if you can believe it). That depiction of the emperor’s corpse on the golden throne, and the the grimdark version of the Beatitudes in there stuck with me, and that was before I’d even been roped into playing by my friend :P

 

I still like the scenes of marines being an overwhelming force, it’s cool, but (frankly especially since the Fall of Cadia) I’ve become much more interested in casting the setting in that “doomed last stand” sense. And the “hope” comes in the form of hope that somewhere in the Imperium, just one more generation can live and die in (relative) peace. I wrote about that at greater length in that “what does the grimdark mean to you” thread.

 

The point I started off with in this post is that through this whole time, I have simply adored 40k as a setting. So you can like the setting even if you don’t really like some of the extra grimdark bits, because that’s how I got started in the hobby.

 

An interesting thing to note is that I didn’t even read any of the fluff in my codex for months after I started playing, I got into 40k for the game, and then the fluff came second (and then I found the Sisters :D ). Still trying to work out how one enjoys painting for long periods.

 

Edit: now that I think about it I do know some even younger WFB/40K (yes, actual WFB) players, not sure when/if I’ll see them next but I’ll have to ask about this topic.

[b1soul]

Haven't hit mid thirties yet...so I'm not as old as the true first edition old-timers.

 

It would be interesting to know how much GW/BL sales is generated by different age demographics.

 

I feel that Grimdark is, in general, something more appealing to older fans/hobbyists (late teens/early twenties and up).

 

If, say, 80% of GW's revenue is generated by the 16 and younger crowd and this is GW's business model for the long run, I expect Grimdark to be gradually sidelined.

 

It really depends on whether GW wants to position 40K as a primarily juvenile or adult hobby.

[The Red Thirst]

...and still desire a reduction of Grimdark in the literature?

Im a Blood Angel, and 'Hope' is what drives my Chapter, it pushes us to be better than the Curse in our Blood, to strive for a better tomorrow, for just as we were once stunted and deseased children of Baal, now transformed into Nobility incarnate, so too can the Imperium be changed for the better...

 

(at least thats what I believe Humanities goal is, not only to survive but to rise above the Grimdark. Whether they can accomplish this in this setting is the real question)

[b1soul]

According to the current setting per ADB, the answer is no

 

EDIT: Not saying ADB decided the setting. ADB simply pointed to the pre-existing language that apparently answers the question of whether mankind might "rise above" in 40K.

[Servant of Dante]

Ah, but that’s what makes the blood angels so delicious! They strive to rise above even while humanity sinks under.

 

Same with Sisters, anything less than absolute victory is unacceptable to them, and they hold to their values (even if they are kinda misguided) in the face of destruction. They can’t win the fight, but they try anyway :P

[Scribe]

The original question is actually...

can you like 40K but prefer less Grimdark than there currently is

 

Well...yeah you can prefer whatever you want, but GrimDark remains what 40K is. 

 

 

 

...and still desire a reduction of Grimdark in the literature?

Im a Blood Angel, and 'Hope' is what drives my Chapter, it pushes us to be better than the Curse in our Blood, to strive for a better tomorrow, for just as we were once stunted and deseased children of Baal, now transformed into Nobility incarnate, so too can the Imperium be changed for the better...

 

(at least thats what I believe Humanities goal is, not only to survive but to rise above the Grimdark. Whether they can accomplish this in this setting is the real question)

 

 

And for all that noble hope...your Chapter is tainted, irrevocably cursed, to a slow decline, a madness of the very soul...welcome, to GrimDark.

 

 

Haven't hit mid thirties yet...so I'm not as old as the true first edition old-timers.

 

It would be interesting to know how much GW/BL sales is generated by different age demographics.

 

I feel that Grimdark is, in general, something more appealing to older fans/hobbyists (late teens/early twenties and up).

 

If, say, 80% of GW's revenue is generated by the 16 and younger crowd and this is GW's business model for the long run, I expect Grimdark to be gradually sidelined.

 

It really depends on whether GW wants to position 40K as a primarily juvenile or adult hobby.

 

As to THIS.

 

When the game was at its best (5th), I spent more than any 16 year old ever could, by orders of magnitude. I'm 36 and have had a stable job for over a decade. No kid has my disposable income.

 

Thats GW's biggest :cuss up, thinking that its KIDS who are going to spend the most.

 

But then, they didnt used to do market research. :p