Can you be a true 40K fan...

[b1soul]

"yeah you can prefer whatever you want, but GrimDark remains what 40K is."

 

I'm saying I wouldn't mind a less Grimdark 40K, which is arguably where the post-GS setting is headed.

 

A less Grimdark 40K doesn't mean no Grimdark. It could mean going from mankind has zero chance of conquering Chaos to mankind has a 1% chance.

 

EDIT: I highly doubt 2016/2017 GW has not done market research

[Scribe]

Yeah, I mean I dont know what to tell you. :]

 

You've had a few threads, this and the Conquering the Warp, I mean are you looking for validation? Just shooting the breeze?

 

Obviously you can be a fan of 40K and prefer less GrimDark, 100%.

 

Now...to ME thats wanting 40K to not be 40K. To ME, it would be the exact wrong direction to take the setting, because its the GrimDark which makes 40K, its what differentiates it and defines it.

 

Granted, I'm about as far away from NobleBright as it gets when it comes to 40K. I like the LotR, thats High Fantasy, Noble, Bright, the Good Wins! I like Star Wars, and thats how moves 4,5,6 were too, and I watched the hell out of those.

 

I used to watch StarTrek for years, loved it, my Mom and I watched it every week.

 

Thats not what I want out of 40K. Its DIFFERENT.

 

I mean if you asked me, moving away from GrimDark would be the worst thing they could do, if you asked several people on my ignore list, they think that would be awesome.

 

In the end though, your not asking if it is GrimDark, but if its ok to like 40K and want it to be less GrimDark.

 

My nice answer because in the end it will or wont change despite what either of us want? Sure, whatever man.

 

My REAL (rude imo) answer? No, to like 40K is to embrace GrimDark, because that is what the setting is, and has been, for decades and if you want less GrimDark then you have the wrong view of 40K in the first place. :p

 

That would be rude however so 'Sure, whatever man'. :)

[b1soul]

What validation would I be seeking? Not sure what you're on about. Also not entirely sure what the "Conquering the Warp" thread has to do with this discussion.

 

I'm just a guy with an opinion, which is...

 

1. With the GS's events, GW may be toning down (but not removing) the Grimdark. If that's the case, I'm in favour of it.

 

2. Grimdark will always have a place in 40K. I wouldn't mind, if that place becomes less central.

 

3. I'm not a huge fan of a setting straight-up stating that such-and-such faction's imminent doom is 100% guaranteed by word of god. Makes it less interesting for me. Futility on a macro-scale does not really appeal to me. It might appeal to others, that's fine.

 

4. GW under their current management have probably conducted plenty of market research. The conclusion of that research might have been (speculating on my part):

 

- 25 to 50 year old guys who spend thousands of pounds on GW products are a rare breed

 

- GW's bread-and-butter target market is composed of the younger, say, ten to sixteen year old demographic

 

- Grimdark dystopia doesn't appeal much to these people who were born in the cultural milieu of the 2000s and who are growing up in the 2010s. The old 40K tone was a product of its time. It may have to adapt or die.

 

If GW reached the above conclusions, it could explain the Age of Sigmar and the Return of the Primarch, two absolutely massive shifts in the settings.

 

Without fluff, GW's products are just pieces of plastic. Compelling fluff is what drives sales. You have to make your fluff compelling to your key consumer demographic. High levels of Grimdark might put these people off. GW has to hook the current crop of youngsters.

 

As time passes, I guess we'll see whether GW continues to tone down the Grimdark to appeal to younger fans (while retaining some to appease the old school fans).

 

I personally do not think that 5th Edition levels of Grimdark are absolutely indispensable to the essence of 40K. I'm fine with a moderately more hopeful outlook short of going full Noblebright, so to speak. Post-GS 40K apparently strikes that balance, but I wouldn't mind going even a bit further in this direction.

 

Not really trying to convince others that my view is the best view. But I have a feeling that those who cling to Grimdark as the defining essence of 40K are in for a rough ride going forward. I could be wrong.

 

EDIT:

I also want to draw a distinction between different types of Grimdark.

 

I absolutely adore many several examples of Grimdark. The concept of servitors and cherubs is perhaps the apotheosis of Grimdark. Dead or lobotimised human infants fluttering about as cyborg familiars? Very unique, striking concept. That, however, does not necessitate stuff like the Imperium is guaranteed to collapse in the near future. Honestly, this is probably the only aspect of Grimdark I truly dislike.

[Warpmiss]

Teens usually go through an 'edgy' phase, wouldn't they like the GrimDark then?

[b1soul]

Perhaps you're right...Goths would love it.

[mc warhammer]

eh, you can actually cherry pick what novels you read and end up with a very grim-lite self canon of 40k if that’s your desire. no need to lighten even further, there’s enough variance as is

 

and head canon is also a wonderful thing

[b1soul]

Right...though I am curious where this setting is headed since Gathering Storm

[Servant of Dante]

If I have any interest at all in the setting GS and on, it’s the Sisters in the Imperium Nihilus :P

 

Other than that I’ll give it a solid meh, in my opinion.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Teens usually go through an 'edgy' phase, wouldn't they like the GrimDark then?

 

I find it amusing that I can offer a parallel story to Dante in that I too got into 40k, and indeed Blood Angels, in my early teens back in 3rd Edition, but rather being all about the "grandiose and the glorious" it was very much the Death Company, Moriar the Chosen and the darker aspects of the Chapter that did it for me. If I'd had the money I certainly would have gone all-in on an army to fit the Death Company Army rules from Chapter Approved. I even considered doing exactly that in the run-up towards 8th as a way of reconnecting with my roots.

 

Grimdark was definitely a revelation and a huge hit with me back then.

[Warpmiss]

I wish I had delved into 40k when I was a teen myself, the setting is certainly something that I would have found appealing. The main reason I my interest in Warhammer returned some years ago was remembering the amazing yet creepy art of Adrian Smith for the Skaven/Beastmen/Chaos Warriors/etc that I had loved so much when I was a young teen. I didn't care about sci-fi then so it didn't occur to me to open a 40k book. I wish I had, it would have blown my mind.

[Scribe]

EDIT:

I also want to draw a distinction between different types of Grimdark.

 

I absolutely adore many several examples of Grimdark. The concept of servitors and cherubs is perhaps the apotheosis of Grimdark. Dead or lobotimised human infants fluttering about as cyborg familiars? Very unique, striking concept. That, however, does not necessitate stuff like the Imperium is guaranteed to collapse in the near future. Honestly, this is probably the only aspect of Grimdark I truly dislike.

 

I think this is where I struggle. Our positions on this are likely further apart than we have been able to articulate.

 

The Imperium being 100% guaranteed to collapse eventually is probably one of the top 5 most important facets of the setting it may even be #1. Floating Cyber-Babies is whatever to me. Evocative sure, but thats not setting defining. Neither is the style of buildings, or dare I say it Power Armoured Troops.

 

The End of Man, is what is critical here.

 

So my apologies, I dont think I can put myself into your head space to see the question from your perspective, because what you seem to be wanting or expecting, or hoping for, is anathema to me.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

My man b1soul speaking to me. Well done, brother

[rendingon1+]

I wish I had delved into 40k when I was a teen myself, the setting is certainly something that I would have found appealing. The main reason I my interest in Warhammer returned some years ago was remembering the amazing yet creepy art of Adrian Smith for the Skaven/Beastmen/Chaos Warriors/etc that I had loved so much when I was a young teen. I didn't care about sci-fi then so it didn't occur to me to open a 40k book. I wish I had, it would have blown my mind.

Old WH... Now THAT was really grimdark. And it was grimdark so... effortlessly when compared to 40k.

[veterannoob]

"yeah you can prefer whatever you want, but GrimDark remains what 40K is."

 

I'm saying I wouldn't mind a less Grimdark 40K, which is arguably where the post-GS setting is headed.

 

A less Grimdark 40K doesn't mean no Grimdark. It could mean going from mankind has zero chance of conquering Chaos to mankind has a 1% chance.

 

EDIT: I highly doubt 2016/2017 GW has not done market research

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/survey-taken/?sm=mUrZMFuCHpbZ_2FZI63OkRHthyERB3TAJF76BXRtJ5Q4ogOuC7rqGWbOxXKY60FgOwRvCbOdMp4S_2BDwFYbxxBHRxKIrVS2z3GbQN7hEQoFnwE_3D

 

and that's just the glaringly obvious today news

Edit: this may sound unintentionally snarky. I mean to agree with you and give an example of modern feedback.

[Scribe]

While I applaud them, 6th, 7th, and everything they did to lead into 8th was all pre-market research. 

 

So lets not move the goal posts too far.

[Phoebus]

See, this is why words are important.

 

If you ask me, "grimdark" is just the description of the genre: it speaks to fiction that is (straight from the online definitions) "particularly dystopian, amoral or violent."

 

To b1soul, "grimdark" can mean all that (or less, or more), but the key issue is the hopelessness of the Imperium of Man: the idea that, despite all their efforts, Mankind will fall before the nightmarish forces arrayed against it.

 

Now, if you were to talk to authors like A D-B, the imminent fall of the Imperium is a central element of the setting. You're free to like what you like, but what you like may not necessarily correlate with the reality of this setting. That aspect rarely occurs to me, though. I'm enamored with the setting as it is: with the clock showing one minute 'till midnight. I'm into the whole "rage against the dying of light" aspect. The fact that Abaddon will get to Terra (or maybe he won't, but stay with me), that the Golden Throne will fail, that the Hive fleets will eventually come through en masse, and so on, doesn't affect me. Likewise, I don't particularly care whether or not the Indomitus Crusade saves the Imperium. I'm alternately jazzed or not jazzed by the return of Guilliman (or, more specifically, how it's portrayed), but what I'm really concerned about is that he doesn't somehow roll-back millennia of the gothic, dystopian, militaristic, fanatical, insanity that informs the Imperium's culture before authors get more chances to translate it to prose.

 

Beyond that, though, we have to be careful with our assumptions - especially when it comes to what people want. It's easy to claim that Gathering Storm is the result of marketing research that shows people want less grimdark. I could just as easily say, however, that Gathering Storm is just the result of marketing research that shows people want the timeline to advance and/or that Primarchs would sell like hot-cakes. It's easy to claim that young people don't want grimdark, and that the setting's lore might have to change. I could just easily point out, however, that fiction about a future dystopia where people starve to death and children are sent to fight each other in mortal combat for the amusement of a decadent ruling elite sold like hot-cakes to teenagers and adults alike, and made $3 billion in the movie theaters.

[b1soul]

I think this is where I struggle. Our positions on this are likely further apart than we have been able to articulate.

 

The Imperium being 100% guaranteed to collapse eventually is probably one of the top 5 most important facets of the setting it may even be #1.

Pre-GS, the Imperium's imminent collapse was guaranteed. The Imperium was a minute from midnight, maybe a second from midnight. The Imperium was not 20 hours from midnight.

 

Eventual collapse is meaningless as every civilisation, unless it figures out a way to trascend time/entropy, will eventually collapse.

 

The End of Man, is what is critical here.

 

I'd be fine with the Imperium being in dire straits, without the voice of GW proclaiming that its imminent doom is absolutely certain. This adds nothing in my view. Let the circumstances speak for themselves. Show, don't tell.

 

You would still have plenty of room to play with the concept of the End of Man, without such absolute certainty via word of god/GW.

 

I also think the other "Grimdark" factors are very important to 40K.

 

If George Lucas came out and said..."Yeah, SW is a minute from midnight. Within a few centuries, the Republic (or whatever) will collapse and the human race in SW will fizzle out and end. All is dust." That would still be a completely different setting from 40K and be missing all of the other "Grimdark" elements.

 

EDIT: @Phoebus

 

Regarding market research...your points are not without merit.

 

IMO...

 

If GW firmly believes that Grimdark "sells" in the 2010s, it is very odd that they've changed the fluff the way they have.

 

GW could have killed off the Emperor and froze the clock there. That would be very Grimdark by almost any definition of the word.

 

Or they could have revealed that the Emperor has been dead since the end of the HH, had the Astronomican fail, no return of a primarch, and froze the clock there. Very Grimdark. Didn't happen.

 

Heck, GW could have had Guilliman return in a much darker, ominous manner . Instead, they had him inject significant hope into the setting (though still balanced by many tough challenges). They could have heaped on more challenges to maintain or increase the Grimdark. How about the Imperium gains Guilliman but loses the Emperor ? Oh, what a wicked twist of fate. Hasn't happened...well, not yet.

 

GW's fluff decisions, to me, smack of a deliberate but balanced effort to semi-brighten the setting's outlook. They could have easily injected major plot developments while maintaining or even increasing the level of hopelessness.

[Scribe]

See, this is why words are important.

 

If you ask me, "grimdark" is just the description of the genre: it speaks to fiction that is (straight from the online definitions) "particularly dystopian, amoral or violent."

 

To b1soul, "grimdark" can mean all that (or less, or more), but the key issue is the hopelessness of the Imperium of Man: the idea that, despite all their efforts, Mankind will fall before the nightmarish forces arrayed against it.

 

Now, if you were to talk to authors like A D-B, the imminent fall of the Imperium is a central element of the setting. You're free to like what you like, but what you like may not necessarily correlate with the reality of this setting. If you talk to me, though, that rarely occurs to me. I'm enamored with the setting as it is with the clock showing one minute 'till midnight. I'm into the whole "rage against the dying of light" aspect. The fact that Abaddon will get to Terra (may he won't, but stay with me), that the Golden Throne will fail, that the Hive fleets will eventually come through en masse, and so on, doesn't affect me. Likewise, I don't particularly care whether or not the Indomitus Crusade saves the Imperium. I'm alternately jazzed or not jazzed by the return of Guilliman (or, more accurately, how it's portrayed), but what I'm really concerned about is that he doesn't somehow roll-back millennia of the gothic, dystopian, militaristic, fanatical, insanity that informs the Imperium's culture before authors get more chances to translate it to prose.

 

Beyond that, though, we have to be careful with our assumptions - especially when it comes to what people want. It's easy to claim that Gathering Storm is the result of marketing research that shows people want less grimdark. I could just as easily say, however, that Gathering Storm is just the result of marketing research that shows people want the timeline to advance and/or that Primarchs would sell like hot-cakes. It's easy to claim that young people don't want grimdark, and that the setting's lore might have to change. I could just easily, however, say that fiction about a future dystopia where people starve to death and children are sent to fight each other in mortal combat for the amusement of a decadent ruling elite sold like hot-cakes to teenagers and adults alike, and made $3 billion in the movie theaters.

 

I essentially...dont really care about what could be. I care more about what is, and was.

 

Until I get Word of God that 'surprise guys, its not all doomed!' it is. Today, tomorrow, 10,000 years from now. That is important, because that is fact.

 

/shrug

 

If people insist on reading something that isnt there, I cannot help that, and its better for me to simply ignore it as mistaken readings of an existing setting because people like to have opinions, and musings.

 

ADB - Do me a solid and just let me know if/when that's the case, so I can melt down my dudes. ;)

[b1soul]

No one saying it's not there. I'm saying I don't like it, here's why, and here's why it might change going forward.

[veterannoob]

Perhaps you're right...Goths would love it.

best comment for Nov. 2017 

[Knight of the Raven]

Disclaimer: I am self-aware enough to know that I simply don't get the setting, or truely realize the extent of its horrors. As I read Dark Apostle, Dark Creed and Storm of Iron, I was cheering for the Imperium to win as though they were good guys in any shape or form. When I think of space marines, I picture soldiers who will leap into the gates of hell themselves and fight to the last without hesitation if that meant the humanity they don't belong to anymore would live one instant more.

But even a broken clock is right twice a day, so I do have something to say.

In my limited understanding of the subject at hand, 'grimdark' is more than only 'mankind will inevitably cease to exist.' It's that mankind will stoop as low as physically possible, will sacrifice everything that makes humans human and life worth living, will become as horrifying as or even more so than the monsters it seeks to stave off, all in the name of its survival...

And it's not enough.

It never will be.

That's why, on a tangent, I consider the T'au being a genuinely idealistic race being forced to gradually shed its values to ensure their survival from every peril in the galaxy infinitely darker than the 'the Ethereals were secretly evil all along' version which most people who consider the T'au to be a blight on the themes of Warhammer 40,000 would apparently prefer (when they're not calling for them to be downright squatted instead).

I've witnessed enough... excentricities, to remain polite, from self-proclaimed 'true fans' to be more than a little nonplussed about the whole concept, but on the other hand, works of fiction do have (hopefully, anyway) themes they're built upon. While they can change as the years stretch on and the writers come and go, I find coming to the universe and its community asking for these themes to change to suit you quite distasteful.*

I only have one other fandom at the moment, the developments of which I'm even less impressed with than the changing of Warhammer 40,000 from a setting to an ever-evolving story, and about which I will say as little as possible because I know from personal experience that it spreads so much throughout the world and the internet that it can easily feel like it's shoved down your throat.

So I'll just say that you don't come to that fandom and say "you know, there should be less 'the Power of All Villains Can Be Redeemed because Everyone is Good Deep Down Inside^TM' and more grit" and expect to have a leg to stand on.

Of course, settings as old and enduring as Warhammer 40,000 can live long enough for fans with stars in their eyes and ideas to improve the universe ranging from actually good to dubious to downright horrible to join the writing team and twist the setting to their (often biased) preferences, which is another kettle of fish entirely...

 

* personal opinion, as 'find' implies.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

No one saying it's not there. I'm saying I don't like it, here's why, and here's why it might change going forward.

Legatus has pointed this out a couple different times, but even in 1st edition, there were references to the Emperor guiding humanity on a narrow path of survival that only he could see. Seems to me that nugget usually gets conveniently ignored by everyone. 

 

 I just think it's hilarious that people believe so hard they just know what GrimDark (lmao when did the 'd' get capitalized, btw? saw it pop up in this thread, what is it, like some greater form of grimdark? An ascended form?) is.

[Scribe]

It's CamelCase, unfortunately my day job has bled into how I type.

 

Nobody ignores the narrow path to survival.

 

An eternity of slavery to Dark God's and war, is still surviving ya?

 

I don't know why I bother taking people off my list. :D

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Odam, you know exactly what the Emperor's plans are! Pack it in boys.

 

And same.

[Scribe]

Odam, you know exactly what the Emperor's plans are! Pack it in boys.

 

And same.

 

Actually we did know, and we have it on Word of God account from Authors, and Editors, that my views are factual and have been for as long as there has been a concerted effort put towards the lore.

 

I mean did we all just forget all the uproar over Master of Mankind that SHOULDNT have been an uproar at all if not for the people who misinterret or do not understand the setting?

 

Its not my fault if you want something to be real, that didnt exist. Its not my fault, that the facts, the lore, and the Authors/Editors support what I know (not believe, know) to be the settings underlying truth.

 

Just like it wont be your fault, if GW decide to ruin what they have to appeal to a different demographic.

 

Settings change, and thats just the way of the world. I'm not saying it could NEVER change, I'm only confident in what the setting was and has been.

 

And I'm not wrong.

 

So now we can hopefully put each other on Ignore, and carry on. :]