Can you be a true 40K fan...

[Servant of Dante]

To clarify, I don’t know that the idea that humanity will go extinct needs to be an absolute, but the Imperium isn’t going to suddenly “win” or even really start winning on a galactic scale.

 

However, if a person reads the 40k fluff and then decides to think about it a different way, that carries no more or less weight than my interpretation.

 

I think I’d put more weight on the opinions of the authors and so on, but again, no one’s going to force you to care what an author says, or even what a Codex says, if you don’t want to :D

[Donkey Kong]

Remember WE as readers/players know the fate that awaits the player characters in this game. WE know the extend of the Tyranid threat. WE know the Necron Tombs are waking (and their history) etc etc. The people living in the Imperium DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE KNOW. So they fight on and become ever more draconian in trying to control the population and mobilise for all out war in an effort to survive.

 

 

But we don't. We don't know how many more hive fleets or tomb worlds or orks there are, and we aren't meant to know by design. You've already spoken to the fact that Games Workshop is a business making business decisions, but you've forgotten that the setting's ambiguity is also a business decision. The medium we're intended to experience this universe through isn't a novel but a rule book and a miniatures game. Furthermore, it's a miniatures game where you are encouraged to take a knife or a saw to your pewter and plastic and resin pieces and manipulate them to your heart's desire and then paint them whatever colors you want. Talk to somebody who plays historicals and they'll tell you the objective correct shade of green to paint your M4 Sherman. 40k, not so much.

 

There are fundamental parts of the lore that most of us would think obvious that can easily incite hundreds of comments on their own. Try asking how tall a space marine is and watch answers pour in ranging from "roughly 28mm" (cheeky) to "10ft."

 

I hated the concept of loose canon when I first heard about it. I still hate it now. But, seeing how Disney is handling Star Wars and traded in the Holocron Continuity Database for the Lucasfilm Story Group, I've come to the conclusion that maybe having license to headcanon isn't so bad after all. Can you be a true 40k fan if you don't like the GrimDark^TM yeah sure, whatever. I just have to accept the tradeoff that your 40k isn't my 40k.

[Leif Bearclaw]

To clarify, I don’t know that the idea that humanity will go extinct needs to be an absolute, but the Imperium isn’t going to suddenly “win” or even really start winning on a galactic scale.

 

However, if a person reads the 40k fluff and then decides to think about it a different way, that carries no more or less weight than my interpretation.

 

I think I’d put more weight on the opinions of the authors and so on, but again, no one’s going to force you to care what an author says, or even what a Codex says, if you don’t want to

 

Here's the thing that always kinda bugs me with these discussions. What does 'the Imperium wins' actually mean?

 

The 40k I fell in love with was the 'dynamic stasis' idea that Wargamer described a couple of pages ago. That the Imperium's almost 'too big to fail', while it can lose a dozen world over here, another dozen are brought into the fold over there. A monolithic entity of unparalleled might, but is beset by so many threats from all angles that it can't deal with any of them for good. The Imperium sold to us by Andy Chambers in the run up to EoT, that actually had something to gain from victory beyond 'not dead yet', that could still achieve some level of renaissance (as it had several times before). Nothing was set in stone, midnight may be near but tolling midnight isn't inevitable. And the shift towards 'doom cannot be stopped', which did indeed seem to start with 5th, has noticeably damaged my enjoyment of the setting.

 

A lot of the 'pro-GrimDark' positions seem to hold to the view that the Imperium 'winning' would damage the setting, because to 'win' something big has to change. But to me, status quo was winning for the Imperium. On the meta scale, they hold the line. And that was good, because I liked the setting and wanted it to continue being awesome. To me 'Imperium wins' wasn't a bad thing, or a dirty word, but the necessary component to stop something I loved metamorphosing into something I don't. Sadly, that appears to be precisely what's happening now they're turning the setting into a story.

 

But what really frustrates is the Grimderp. It can crop up even in otherwise excellent books. One thing that really bugged me with Wrath of Iron (otherwise an excellent book) was the Iron Hands calling the shots, and being so ivory tower with Guard and Titan commanders that they caused a mutiny. Thing is, the commanders weren't disloyal or cowardly, they just got sick of their men being thrown away with a stupidly aggressive battleplan that appeared to be completely unnecessary (as the Imperium was clearly going to win on Shardenus). Of course it turns out that the IHs had a really good reason for rushing (stop the evil ritual, otherwise we're all screwed). Thing is, the IH Captain didn't bother to take 2 minutes to tell the other commanders this. Now, while some might like this as fitting the cold, unfeeling nature of the IHs (and I can see the argument there, I just don't buy it), I just found it stupid, and it detracted from what was overall a really sound read.

[DukeLeto69]

 

Remember WE as readers/players know the fate that awaits the player characters in this game. WE know the extend of the Tyranid threat. WE know the Necron Tombs are waking (and their history) etc etc. The people living in the Imperium DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE KNOW. So they fight on and become ever more draconian in trying to control the population and mobilise for all out war in an effort to survive.

But we don't. We don't know how many more hive fleets or tomb worlds or orks there are, and we aren't meant to know by design. You've already spoken to the fact that Games Workshop is a business making business decisions, but you've forgotten that the setting's ambiguity is also a business decision. The medium we're intended to experience this universe through isn't a novel but a rule book and a miniatures game. Furthermore, it's a miniatures game where you are encouraged to take a knife or a saw to your pewter and plastic and resin pieces and manipulate them to your heart's desire and then paint them whatever colors you want. Talk to somebody who plays historicals and they'll tell you the objective correct shade of green to paint your M4 Sherman. 40k, not so much.

 

There are fundamental parts of the lore that most of us would think obvious that can easily incite hundreds of comments on their own. Try asking how tall a space marine is and watch answers pour in ranging from "roughly 28mm" (cheeky) to "10ft."

 

I hated the concept of loose canon when I first heard about it. I still hate it now. But, seeing how Disney is handling Star Wars and traded in the Holocron Continuity Database for the Lucasfilm Story Group, I've come to the conclusion that maybe having license to headcanon isn't so bad after all. Can you be a true 40k fan if you don't like the GrimDark^TM yeah sure, whatever. I just have to accept the tradeoff that your 40k isn't my 40k.

I would reduce this quote length but on an iPad that is too painful...

 

You say we don't know how many hive fleets. True we don't know the actual extent but we do know more than the player characters in the game/books. A simple look at the galactic map shows us that ONLY the tendrils of the hive fleets have even reached the Galaxy. WE can see the graphic representation on those maps showing a vast "fleet" that is almost as big as the whole galaxy. So we know the scale of what is coming far better than the player characters. Quite frankly when that scale of biomass finally arrives the entire galaxy is screwed period! Of course it could take thousands of years for the entire biomass to have arrived in the galaxy.

[Dosjetka]

=][= Thread re-opened after culling over a dozen off-topic and/or inflammatory posts.

 

Keep it civil, folks. We shouldn't need to be telling you this. =][=

[Donkey Kong]

You say we don't know how many hive fleets. True we don't know the actual extent but we do know more than the player characters in the game/books. A simple look at the galactic map shows us that ONLY the tendrils of the hive fleets have even reached the Galaxy. WE can see the graphic representation on those maps showing a vast "fleet" that is almost as big as the whole galaxy. So we know the scale of what is coming far better than the player characters. Quite frankly when that scale of biomass finally arrives the entire galaxy is screwed period! Of course it could take thousands of years for the entire biomass to have arrived in the galaxy.

 

You're implying that the galaxy maps are word of god objective truth and not yet another example of secrets and lies.

[Knight of the Raven]

The Imperium sold to us by Andy Chambers in the run up to EoT, that actually had something to gain from victory beyond 'not dead yet', that could still achieve some level of renaissance (as it had several times before). Nothing was set in stone, midnight may be near but tolling midnight isn't inevitable.

I'd like to offer some evidence for this, however dubious it may be in virtue of not being English.

French White Dwarf 110, June 2003, Designers' Notes, page 13:

LONG TERM EFFECTS

The results of the campaign will influence the future of Warhammer 40,000. If the Imperium loses the Cadian Gate, it will have to face an era of darkness where Chaos will be all-powerful. The Great Enemy will be free to strike wherever it wishes, perhaps even on Terra itself. Across the galaxy, men will observe the stars with fear, knowing the Despoiler is underway and is working on their annihilation. The Ultima Segmentum and the Segmentum Obscurus will be divided bit by bit as Mankind loses its faith in its distant Emperor and alien hordes freely devastate its worlds.

If it is the forces of the Imperium who prevail and repel the 13th Black Crusade however, a new golden age will start. Devotion to the Emperor will reach its peak, and once Chaos is repelled, the High Lords will be able to reconquer lost territories and reunite the Imperium. Crusades will be launched against alien invaders. There are even some rumors speaking of reestablishing the Space Marine legions, or of creating new successor chapters from the glorious victors of the Cadian Gate.

The future is thus in your hands! Don't let it go...

[Scribe]

And Chaos Won. :]

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

You say we don't know how many hive fleets. True we don't know the actual extent but we do know more than the player characters in the game/books. A simple look at the galactic map shows us that ONLY the tendrils of the hive fleets have even reached the Galaxy. WE can see the graphic representation on those maps showing a vast "fleet" that is almost as big as the whole galaxy. So we know the scale of what is coming far better than the player characters. Quite frankly when that scale of biomass finally arrives the entire galaxy is screwed period! Of course it could take thousands of years for the entire biomass to have arrived in the galaxy.

You're implying that the galaxy maps are word of god objective truth and not yet another example of secrets and lies.

You can’t fake geography. You can call Everest a hill but it’ll still be a :cuss of a climb.

[rendingon1+]

 

But what really frustrates is the Grimderp. It can crop up even in otherwise excellent books. One thing that really bugged me with Wrath of Iron (otherwise an excellent book) was the Iron Hands calling the shots, and being so ivory tower with Guard and Titan commanders that they caused a mutiny. Thing is, the commanders weren't disloyal or cowardly, they just got sick of their men being thrown away with a stupidly aggressive battleplan that appeared to be completely unnecessary (as the Imperium was clearly going to win on Shardenus). Of course it turns out that the IHs had a really good reason for rushing (stop the evil ritual, otherwise we're all screwed). Thing is, the IH Captain didn't bother to take 2 minutes to tell the other commanders this. Now, while some might like this as fitting the cold, unfeeling nature of the IHs (and I can see the argument there, I just don't buy it), I just found it stupid, and it detracted from what was overall a really sound read.

 

I wouldn't call IH actions in Wrath of Iron Grimderp. This is how IH work. This is how Imperial Chain of Command works. When you're in commnd you don't have to explain your plans - especially when you are astartes. And IH are known for disregard/contempt/loathing for anything that is not Iron Hands. That is what defines them and it all started during the times of the GC. IH were using human auxilia not unlike the Iron Warriors ie. as a bait, as a fire sponge etc.

I know Wrath of Iron might be an extreme example but let's face it: it's normal in 40k. There are Imperial factions that are inhuman and when book emhasize on that people shouldn't (I think) say that it's Grimderp.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

But what really frustrates is the Grimderp. It can crop up even in otherwise excellent books. One thing that really bugged me with Wrath of Iron (otherwise an excellent book) was the Iron Hands calling the shots, and being so ivory tower with Guard and Titan commanders that they caused a mutiny. Thing is, the commanders weren't disloyal or cowardly, they just got sick of their men being thrown away with a stupidly aggressive battleplan that appeared to be completely unnecessary (as the Imperium was clearly going to win on Shardenus). Of course it turns out that the IHs had a really good reason for rushing (stop the evil ritual, otherwise we're all screwed). Thing is, the IH Captain didn't bother to take 2 minutes to tell the other commanders this. Now, while some might like this as fitting the cold, unfeeling nature of the IHs (and I can see the argument there, I just don't buy it), I just found it stupid, and it detracted from what was overall a really sound read.

 

I wouldn't call IH actions in Wrath of Iron Grimderp. This is how IH work. This is how Imperial Chain of Command works. When you're in commnd you don't have to explain your plans - especially when you are astartes. And IH are known for disregard/contempt/loathing for anything that is not Iron Hands. That is what defines them and it all started during the times of the GC. IH were using human auxilia not unlike the Iron Warriors ie. as a bait, as a fire sponge etc.

I know Wrath of Iron might be an extreme example but let's face it: it's normal in 40k. There are Imperial factions that are inhuman and when book emhasize on that people shouldn't (I think) say that it's Grimderp.

 

No it really isn't. A lot of the components of the Imperial war machine don't operate on a blind 'how high sir' chain of command. At higher levels especially (ie. the level featured in Wrath of Iron), it's usually portrayed as more of a political wrangle between different factions with competing interest (Guard Officer, Munitroum bureaucrats, Ad Mech, Ecclesiarchy, etc.). It was just weird that the IHs were in direct command over Guard and Ad Mech military assets in the first place. Wasn't that the point of the reforms of the post-Heresy Imperium, that Astartes commanding regular humans shouldn't happen, because if often ends badly? It's the only book I'm aware of where a Marine Captain treats a Lord General (a line officer, Major, Colonel etc. I could've accepted, but a Lord General and a senior Princeps?) like a subordinate. Neither officer can order the other around usually, what's so special about Shardenus?

 

Iron Hand are also known for logic and efficiency. Treating your allies (who shouldn't really be in your chain of command in the first place) so badly that they mutiny is neither logical or efficient. It would have been such a small thing to tell the other commanders why they were pushing so hard, especially after repeated requests. That's why I find it derpy. It was just so manufactured and unnecessary. The mutiny wasn't needed to show the IHs are inhuman, that's pretty much the point of the entire book.

[DogWelder]

I don't think there's a qualifier for 'true 40k fan' besides not trying to force your view of the lore on anyone else. 40k is such a large and interesting story/setting with room for a myriad of civilizations and factions. If you want a simple feudal world, you can have it. If you want a grimdark metropolis of crushing despair, you have that. If you want a civilized and prosperous planet, those exist too.

 

However I don't think any single view or version of the setting should be the dominant one. The Imperium shouldn't be all Ultramar but it shouldn't be a 100% grimdark hellhole either. There should be lots of variation.

[Scribe]

An immutable Crapsack World has agony Inherent in the System, both physically and metaphysically, and cannot be saved or made a better place. Trying to break The Corruption will instead always result in breaking every bone in your body and it winning, and any positive changes that you try to make will ultimately be torn down and revealed to be All for Nothing—or, even worse, they will only succeed in making things even worse for you and the people that you were trying to help, and/or even accomplish whatever the villains wanted in the first place. Examples: Nineteen Eighty-Four, Warhammer 40,000, FATAL, and the Lovecraftian Fiction genre in general.

 

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld

 

40K is not an all encompasing setting where any story can and should be told. It is a setting in which story's can be told, of any number of types (someone asked for a Romance between Navigator and Inquisitor I think, and it would probably rock) but the setting is still the backdrop otherwise why write it in 40K at all.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't think there's a qualifier for 'true 40k fan' besides not trying to force your view of the lore on anyone else. 40k is such a large and interesting story/setting with room for a myriad of civilizations and factions. If you want a simple feudal world, you can have it. If you want a grimdark metropolis of crushing despair, you have that. If you want a civilized and prosperous planet, those exist too.

 

However I don't think any single view or version of the setting should be the dominant one. The Imperium shouldn't be all Ultramar but it shouldn't be a 100% grimdark hellhole either. There should be lots of variation.

 

The subtext of 'true 40k fan' is either: do you support the new lore changes and revisions or do you like the old lore.

[Scribe]

I dont even think its that Rohr.

 

The lore changes (I just saw the blurb on how they will squat out normal BA's) are all corporately driven mandates. Its whatever to me once you see through the logic. You cant tell me its just good story telling.

 

The underlying context of this thread is more 'do you accept that a setting (not story, but setting) can have universal truth's throughout' or put another way, are there tropes which are so powerful that they are setting defining?

 

To me obviously, yes there are such tropes, and if you dont like them, then you miss the context in stories which are depending on those tropes.

 

Its not so much you cannot be a fan, but more 'you missed this nuance because you disregard this trope' a literal misinterpretation or misunderstanding of the lore.

[DukeLeto69]

 

You say we don't know how many hive fleets. True we don't know the actual extent but we do know more than the player characters in the game/books. A simple look at the galactic map shows us that ONLY the tendrils of the hive fleets have even reached the Galaxy. WE can see the graphic representation on those maps showing a vast "fleet" that is almost as big as the whole galaxy. So we know the scale of what is coming far better than the player characters. Quite frankly when that scale of biomass finally arrives the entire galaxy is screwed period! Of course it could take thousands of years for the entire biomass to have arrived in the galaxy.

 

 

You're implying that the galaxy maps are word of god objective truth and not yet another example of secrets and lies.

Er no I am not. I simply stating the fact that in the real world (not within the game) GW publish those maps just as they publish the game and are the guardians of the Lore so... GW have produced maps that clearly show the massive galaxy spanning extend/scale of the Tyrannid "fleet" ergo...the galaxy is eventually screwed anyway!

[Scribe]

 

 

You say we don't know how many hive fleets. True we don't know the actual extent but we do know more than the player characters in the game/books. A simple look at the galactic map shows us that ONLY the tendrils of the hive fleets have even reached the Galaxy. WE can see the graphic representation on those maps showing a vast "fleet" that is almost as big as the whole galaxy. So we know the scale of what is coming far better than the player characters. Quite frankly when that scale of biomass finally arrives the entire galaxy is screwed period! Of course it could take thousands of years for the entire biomass to have arrived in the galaxy.

 

You're implying that the galaxy maps are word of god objective truth and not yet another example of secrets and lies.

Er no I am not. I simply stating the fact that in the real world (not within the game) GW publish those maps just as they publish the game and are the guardians of the Lore so... GW have produced maps that clearly show the massive galaxy spanning extend/scale of the Tyrannid "fleet" ergo...the galaxy is eventually screwed anyway!

 

 

You are wasting your keystrokes.

 

Someone who is going to argue that 'no the maps are false too, its all head canon' isnt going to accept reason or logic that argues for a more holistic and canonical view of the setting.

 

The nids dont even exist in your head if you dont want them to, and the Emperor isnt real, and Cadia still stands.

 

Because I believe it is so. 

[Donkey Kong]

 

You can’t fake geography. You can call Everest a hill but it’ll still be a of a climb.

 

Sure you can. Who's the cartographer and why do you consider them to being word of god objective truth. Drawing fish on a star map doesn't make it gospel, why should the tyranid invasion map be any different.

And, for the record, I also think this sort of discussion is infuriating. But, it doesn't change that the only truth we know is that this is a universe of conflicting perspectives, secrets, and lies.

 

 

You are wasting your keystrokes.

 

Someone who is going to argue that 'no the maps are false too, its all head canon' isnt going to accept reason or logic that argues for a more holistic and canonical view of the setting.

 

The nids dont even exist in your head if you dont want them to, and the Emperor isnt real, and Cadia still stands.

 

Because I believe it is so. 

 

The difference between our perspectives is that I can substantiate my understanding with direct quotes from Games Workshop staff, and you can't. I would like there to be objective canon, but I understand that there isn't one. And, so what if someone is happier if they would prefer to pretend the t'au or tyranids or dark angels don't exist? That's the answer to OPs question, can you be a true 40k fan if you want something different from the universe. And I say, why not.

[Marshal Rohr]

So what you're trying to say is that the location of London or Tokyo can be faked? That D-Day could've actually happened in Spain and we might never have even known? Places exist in space and time. If you travel to them and see the things at the place and time, they are there. So the points of Tyranid invasion being too many to count, even if the map isn't able to show each tendril, are too many to count. The words of the lore reflect there being innumerable tyranid ships invading the galaxy, so that is not even up for debate. 

[Scribe]

So what you're trying to say is that the location of London or Tokyo can be faked? That D-Day could've actually happened in Spain and we might never have even known? Places exist in space and time. If you travel to them and see the things at the place and time, they are there. So the points of Tyranid invasion being too many to count, even if the map isn't able to show each tendril, are too many to count. The words of the lore reflect there being innumerable tyranid ships invading the galaxy, so that is not even up for debate. 

 

Didnt you know, the Earth is Flat?

[DukeLeto69]

Kinghongkong you are trolling right? Pulling our legs on this right?

 

I agree that "IN GAME" the accuracy of any lore or maps could be questionable and the map you use clearly is meant to evoke it being used "IN GAME BY PLAYER CHARACTERS" in this case the Dark Heresy RPG - so totally intended to help the players get into the head space of their player characters and restrict their knowledge to what the people "IN GAME" would know rather than what we in the real world know about the game setting.

 

But the codex maps are there for us players (in the real world) to get a feel for what is happening across the galaxy and absolutely yes WE get the benefit of a God perpective and far more knowledge than ANYONE "IN GAME" could hope to have.

 

"IN GAME" none of the factions hold all the knowledge or same level of knowledge as we do in the real world (there may be an argument that the Eldar do I guess but not sure on that one).

 

Case in point...

 

What do YOU as a player (in the real world) know about The God Emperor? Think about the level of detail you know about Him. Layer that with what you have learned through reading the Horus Heresy series.

 

Now think what the vast majority of human beings in the game setting know about Him? Pretty much nothing right? He is a God and not even considered to have been a real person. They have no idea his life is sustained by a potentially failing Golden Throne. Most don't even know about the Horus Heresy and the Primarchs let alone that they were His "sons" and that half of them turned on Him. But WE know that don't we!

 

There is "IN GAME KNOWLEDGE" and "REAL WORLD KNOWLEDGE".

 

Edited because of annoying iPad autocorrect goodness!

[Donkey Kong]

So what you're trying to say is that the location of London or Tokyo can be faked? That D-Day could've actually happened in Spain and we might never have even known? Places exist in space and time. If you travel to them and see the things at the place and time, they are there. So the points of Tyranid invasion being too many to count, even if the map isn't able to show each tendril, are too many to count. The words of the lore reflect there being innumerable tyranid ships invading the galaxy, so that is not even up for debate. 

 

I said that they can be faked. I never said that the fake was true. This is 40k, a universe of whispers, half truths, secrets, and lies. Everything is up for debate.

 

Kinghongkong you are trolling right? Pulling our legs on this right?

 

I agree that "IN GAME" the accuracy of any lore or maps could be questionable and the map you use clearly is meant to evoke it being used "IN GAME BY PLAYER CHARACTERS" in this case the Dark Heresy RPG - so totally intended to help the players get into the head space of their player characters and restrict their knowledge to what the people "IN GAME" would know rather than what we in the real world know about the game setting.

 

But the codex maps are there for us players (in the real world) to get a feel for what is happening across the galaxy and absolutely yes WE get the benefit of a God perpective and far more knowledge than ANYONE "IN GAME" could hope to have.

 

"IN GAME" none of the factions hold all the knowledge or same level of knowledge as we do in the real world (there may be an argument that the Eldar do I guess but not sure on that one).

 

Dude, I wish I was trolling. I'll accept that I'm playing the contrarian between the four of us (especially considering that I've admitted multiple times now that I want an objective canon), but I'm not lying when I say that the only objective truth Games Workshop has given us is that there is no objective truth and there is no word of god including codex galaxy maps.

 

Marc Gascoigne (Manager of Black Library before 2008)

"I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it. Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends". But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies. It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me. Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy. To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."

 

 

Aaron Dembski-Bowden has used this quote multiple times in his blogposts and articles.

 

Gav Thorpe Jumping the Fence

I think that Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 have a unique advantage in the realm of tie-in backgrounds: they exist to allow personal creativity. Both are backdrops, nothing more. They were created to allow people to collect armies of toy soldiers and fight battles with them. They were conceived with the idea of the player’s creative freedom being directed but not restricted. In Warhammer you can have anything from Ogres to ninjas (and even Ninja Ogres!). Warhammer 40,000 trumpets an ‘Imperium of a Million Worlds’ precisely because that leaves room for everyone to come up with whatever they like.  Hobbyists can create armies, places, worlds, colour schemes, characters and stories for themselves.

Often folks ask if Black Library books are ‘canon’. With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. There are certainly established facts – the current Emperor is Karl-Franz, the Blood Angels have red armour, Commissar Yarrick defended Hades Hive during the Second Armageddon War. However, to suggest that anything else is non-canon is a disservice to the players and authors who participate in this world. To suggest that Black Library novels are somehow of lesser relevance to the background is to imply that every player who has created a unique Space Marine chapter or invented their own Elector Count is somehow wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong.

Whether a particular author’s take on the world matches up with an individual gamer’s or readers is another matter. The fact that each of us is allowed to take possession of that world and envisage it to our own ideal means that it is inevitable our vision will sometimes clash with the vision of others. Such conflict does not render either vision obsolete.

In this regard it is the job of authors and games developers to illuminate and inspire, not to dictate. Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesn’t make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike.

The same applies to transference from Black Library back into the gaming supplements. If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as  Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books. And beside, there simply isn’t enough room in those gaming books to include everything from the hundreds of novels – good, bad or indifferent as we each see them – so the decision must ultimately rest with the taste of individual readers and gamers.

 

 

Aaron Dembski-Bowden penned an article (or two) titled Loose Canon that has since been lost, but he's been in multiple interviews where he was asked about the subject. Including this one here.

"Canon" doesn't really exist in Warhammer 40,000. Not as it does in other licenses. The very point of the setting is to offer some structure, then open it up to personal interpretation.

 

Yeah, there are hard and fast rules. A Chapter descended from Rogal Dorn's gene-seed is unlikely to ever develop a Betcher's Gland, given it's not in their implantation process. Because of that, as an example, the Black Templars can't spit acid. We know that.

 

But the setting is set up with countless holes for your own army background and lore perceptions to neatly fill. The battles listed in every Codex aren't the only battles and characters - they're not even all of the major battles and characters. They're examples, taken from a spread of ten thousand years, across countless millions of worlds. They're slices of lore to use wholesale, or peel bits off and use as examples.

 

These are future histories. It's all already happened, but the reports we get from that far-flung era are unreliable, corrupted by distance and time and a billion unreliable narrators who know a fraction of what the rulebooks tell us.

 

Games Workshop actively encourages that attitude - the idea of everyone coming to 40K and seeing something slightly different: the same thing from a different angle. An author can say Character X was on World Y in Year Z, and another author might contradict it in something else written several years later if he or she has a different idea. Choose which you prefer? Assume both are false sightings and Character X was nowhere near either world? It's your call. That's the point. There is no canon. There are several hundred creators all adding to the melting pot of the IP.

 

 

You'll probably note that "Black Templars spitting acid" Gascoigne notes as an "it varies" while Aaron calls it a hard and fast rule. So what is it? Or is it up for each of us individually to decide?

 

In response and affirmation to Aaron's Loose Canon article, Andy Hoare wrote

It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or “true” representation of the setting. There is no such contract and no such objective truth.

 

 

I mentioned tongue and cheek before, ask people how tall space marines are and watch all sorts of numbers pour in. I would think that should be a relatively easy question to answer and yet it's not. I got into a little spat with Aaron on this forum years ago when I brought up the topic of Sanguinius's hair, notably that Sanguinius is blonde in so many portrayals and yet is described as having black hair in A Thousand Sons. How about how powerful space marines are? How many space marines are needed to conquer a planet? One? A hundred? A thousand? Can three space marines wreak havoc like they do in Salvation's Reach? Or do seventy odd space marines get demolished conducting a raid like they do in Imperial Armour Volume Eight?

 

There is no canon, and thus it's all up for discussion and interpretation.

[Scribe]

And thus, the World is Flat.

[Donkey Kong]

Didnt you know, the Earth is Flat?

 

And thus, the World is Flat.

 

Wrong

[Wargamer]

Gav Thorpe makes an interesting point, and one that is potentially useful.

 

There may not be truth, but there are facts.

 

This does, in fact, allow us to guess at a probable truth. As I've no doubt said before, if a hundred sources insist that The Emperor was a man and one claims he was a woman, then the answer should be obvious.

 

To link this into the original question, Thorpe appears to be of the opinion that everyone's creations are equally canon, and it's up to us to resolve the discrepancies. That means my Supernovas are as canon as the Ultramarines or Blood Angels. That means, should I decide I don't want to be particularly Grimdark, then I am apparently living in a corner of the galaxy where Grimdark isn't really a thing.

 

But if I start declaring that Krieg is a peace loving representative democracy with a progressive focus and an agenda to promote gender equality and reparations for mistreated Xenos races, I'm going to have to explain why everyone else thinks they're Sturmmann on steroids with a fetish for decade long artillery barrages.

 

And sooner or later, it might be best to stop trying to justify the discrepancies in universe and simply say "no, you're wrong".

 

 

Tl;dr: based on Gav's view, you can have 40k without Grimdark... But it won't be 40k - it'll be a version of 40k that only exists in your head.