Space Marinization!

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Ok so we have enough Codices and Chapter Approved to be able to make some reasonable judgments on what GW is doing.  Clearly C:SM is nowhere near the top in terms of codex power level.  
 
A quick summary of the disparity
1. Chapter Tactics only apply infantry/dreads/bikers
Ok this was palatable since it is in keeping with previous chapter tactics restrictions.  I dont think many would have taken exception until all the codicies got versions of chapter tactics that did apply to all units.  Anyone not annoyed by this should just ponder the following...An Eldar Wraithknight at T8 and 24 wounds benefits from Craftworld Attributes.  A Space Marine rhino with no guns does not.  Im sure you can all think of other absurd comparisons.
 
2. Situational Stratagems/Psychic Powers
First off lets define what situational is.  These are powers or tools that are only function in certain situations or with very particular units.  The best example of this is the Datalink Telemetry stratagem.  For 1 command point you get auto hitting whirlwind shots.  The problem with this is that it requires you to have a land speeder within 12 inches of whatever your WW is shooting at.  This stratagem is absolute garbage because of the restrictions.  Requirement 1, you must have 2 lackluster(bad) units in your army to even use it.  Requirement 2, you must have a soft as excrement unit 12 inches from your target.  Requirement 3, you must have command points.  If I am going to meet these requirements I want serious results like "automatic hits AND wounds" or, maximum shots without rolling or even max shots that autohit/wound.  Would getting 12 automatic wounds at strength 4 and ap 0 be stronger than endless cacophony or vengeance for Cadia? 
 
Space Marines also have mostly situational psychic powers.  Psychic fortress is a good example.  You get a 4+ FNP vs smite.  Great... but what if you are facing Tau or Necrons?  Veil of Time is another example... you get rerollable charges and advance moves and you first first.  So maybe you could reroll your 9 inch charge?  The odds still mostly suck.  Compared to warptime this power is a complete joke and they have the same warp charge value! 
 
So lets have some fun here and Space Marinize some stuff from other codicies.
 
Here is what i got.
 
Veterans of the Long War:  1 Command Point.  On a roll of a 2+ an infantry or biker units gets 1+ to their wound rolls in the fight phase.
 
Endless Cacophony: 1 Command Points.   Select a Slaaneshi infantry unit during your shooting phase, for every roll of 6 when shooting bolter weapons, make an additional shot with that weapon.  Additional shots cannot generate bonus shots.
 
Legion Traits, 
 
Word Bearers: Reroll all failed morale tests. 
 
LOL sorry... couldnt resist.
 
Anyone else care to Space Marinize another codex?

Edited November 27, 2017 by SanguinaryGuardsman

[Frater Cornelius]

I am not sure what purpose this thread has aside from you venting your frustration about the Codex. I want to say something, but instead I will quote Reece from one of his articles, because he said it better than would have had:

 

As is often the case with familiarity, a common perception is that Space Marines have lagged behind the power curve a bit. However, this is simply not true. While new books roll out and hit the scene with all of their new tricks and combos it generates a feeling of shock and awe. Comparatively, Space Marines are a known quantity. Despite that, Space Marines continue to perform well competitively and have all of the tools they need to compete in the rapidly developing 8th ed meta.

 

I play relatively often, quite often since release and even these days I discover something new that I previously though of being too weak. Maybe the book is a bit uninspired and in some aspects even unpolished, but it is not weak.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I am not sure what purpose this thread has aside from you venting your frustration about the Codex. I want to say something, but instead I will quote Reece from one of his articles, because he said it better than would have had:

 

As is often the case with familiarity, a common perception is that Space Marines have lagged behind the power curve a bit. However, this is simply not true. While new books roll out and hit the scene with all of their new tricks and combos it generates a feeling of shock and awe. Comparatively, Space Marines are a known quantity. Despite that, Space Marines continue to perform well competitively and have all of the tools they need to compete in the rapidly developing 8th ed meta.

 

I play relatively often, quite often since release and even these days I discover something new that I previously though of being too weak. Maybe the book is a bit uninspired and in some aspects even unpolished, but it is not weak.

Dont get me wrong... I like my Space Marine army but when I play game after game using only either hellfire rounds or stratagem rerolls... there is a problem.  To be clear, this codex is not bad on the level of previous editions.  It is just poorly designed and has some glaring internal balance issues and stupefying inconsistencies.   

 

Also, I gave the topic the tag "The Salt Pile" which is exactly what it is.  Get your salt on and do it with a bit of creativity.  

 

Regarding,FLG. They are trying to sell models so of course everything is "SOOOO GOOD" as Reece likes to say about every unit in the game.  Additionally, I dont think Space Marines are doing that well in tourneys.  I think Guilliman is doing great.  I think conscripts with FW super heavies or flyers are doing well.  Im not really seeing anything that leverages the Space Marine codex but I am seeing Eldar and Guard do that with their codicies.  

[Mileposter]

I'm one of the folks that thinks Space marines are doing pretty okay. Their shtick has always been versatility, not raw power. So not having any given unit be "SOOOOO GOOD" is right where they should be.

 

That being said, while Space Marines are doing okay... I have to agree about their Codex not really holding up in total. The Codex doesn't offer much in the way of utility or options that the Space marines don't have baked in. Other armies had their Codices change the game for them.

 

Space Marines are probably the hardest army to balance, overall. Versatility is always harder to balance against than dedicated tactics or raw power. Having super reroll bubbles can only cover so much ground, after all.

[Frater Cornelius]

I tell you what. Instead of doing a salt pile without meaning or purpose, let us make this a glorious discussion about Marine shortcomings when compared to other factions and what we can do balance things out, talk about things perceived as too weak and have a better look in case it isn't as bad as we think.

 

I'd be right on board with that. But please, no whines. This is supposed to be a glorious discussion ;)

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I tell you what. Instead of doing a salt pile without meaning or purpose, let us make this a glorious discussion about Marine shortcomings when compared to other factions and what we can do balance things out, talk about things perceived as too weak and have a better look in case it isn't as bad as we think.

 

I'd be right on board with that. But please, no whines. This is supposed to be a glorious discussion

 

I tell you what.  Instead of having a glorious discussion, let us make this an immaculate and awe inspiring salt pile about Marine shortcomings when compared to other factions and what we can do to balance things out.  By satirizing other codices we can illustrate why the Space Marines Codex is weak and uninteresting.

 

I'm on board with that.  But please, no whines or thread hijacking.  This IS the glorious salt pile upon which rests the Saltine Throne.     

[Frater Cornelius]

Fine, your choice. Don’t say I didn’t warn you, in case things get out of hand and it catches the eyes of the mods ;)

[Leif Bearclaw]

I am not sure what purpose this thread has aside from you venting your frustration about the Codex. I want to say something, but instead I will quote Reece from one of his articles, because he said it better than would have had:

 

As is often the case with familiarity, a common perception is that Space Marines have lagged behind the power curve a bit. However, this is simply not true. While new books roll out and hit the scene with all of their new tricks and combos it generates a feeling of shock and awe. Comparatively, Space Marines are a known quantity. Despite that, Space Marines continue to perform well competitively and have all of the tools they need to compete in the rapidly developing 8th ed meta.

 

I play relatively often, quite often since release and even these days I discover something new that I previously though of being too weak. Maybe the book is a bit uninspired and in some aspects even unpolished, but it is not weak.

Is that one of the guys who wrote the faction focuses pre release? The supposed elite TO playtester who was helping make 8th the most amazing, most complete and balanced edition ever? Which was then proven almost immediately wrong when the WAAC players got hold of the rules, from Stormraven spam to Gulliman and Razorbacks to whatever Eldar/Guard cheese that's apparently top of the tree atm. At least some of which required what can only be described as 'emergency faq nerfs' (ravens in particular).

 

When was that written? Because it just reeks of Company PR. However, I could buy most of it (and there's a kernel of truth there, with 'new codex shock'), if it wasn't for the obvious blinkers around the faction tactics issue. That's not a 'perception issue', it's objective fact. It's BS for Marines that everyone else's faction tactic applies to everything, while Marines only get it on certain troop types. Especially when some of the 'faction tactics' are identical between books (like the -1 to hit one). It was an obvious change that CA should have made, yet they left it as is.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Leif - No. It was a recent article after the Nova tournaments, in which he participated. But that is not pertinent anymore, as OP didn't want to take it this way ;)

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Fine, your choice. Don’t say I didn’t warn you, in case things get out of hand and it catches the eyes of the mods

 

That really would be a tragedy.  I would probably be wondering what to do with my life and regretful I didn't heed your advice.  

 

Let's do another Space Marine stratagem just for fun!

 

Imperial Guard

Parthian Shot: 1 Command Point.  Whenever a Rough Rider falls back from close combat, on a 2+ a unit that was within 1" inch of the Rough Riders takes 1d3 Mortal Wounds.  

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

@ Leif - No. It was a recent article after the Nova tournaments, in which he participated. But that is not pertinent anymore, as OP didn't want to take it this way

I read the article and even practice what Reece was preaching about space marines.  But at the end of the day best practice will not compensate for the weakness of the codex.  

 

FLG is not a disinterested party regarding space marines.  They sell the models and marines are the most popular army by far.  This should raise some concerns about what Reece is saying when you compare his arguments to what is actually going on.  I dont think he is a bad guy or anything but hes got reasons unrelated to gameplay to pump up marines.  

 

I dont understand your problem with salt or griping.  That can be constructive!  I'm giving very clear reasons for why C:SM is not that good in the form of mockery.  Your response is sanctimonious advice about how I post and emojis.    

[Kisada]

 

However, I could buy most of it (and there's a kernel of truth there, with 'new codex shock'), if it wasn't for the obvious blinkers around the faction tactics issue. That's not a 'perception issue', it's objective fact. It's BS for Marines that everyone else's faction tactic applies to everything, while Marines only get it on certain troop types. Especially when some of the 'faction tactics' are identical between books (like the -1 to hit one). It was an obvious change that CA should have made, yet they left it as is.

 

 

IMHO the one issue would be that Ultramarines tanks being able to fallback and shoot at a -1 would be SO strong.  Of course they could have just written their tactic to be a bit different to begin with to balance it.  Just saying that if it was opened up to all faction units without any adjustment Ultramarines would be too strong.

 

Salamanders would be good too, as would Raven Guard.  Iron Hands and Imperial Fists being second.  WS and BT benefiting the least.

[Kallas]

IMHO the one issue would be that Ultramarines tanks being able to fallback and shoot at a -1 would be SO strong. Of course they could have just written their tactic to be a bit different to begin with to balance it. Just saying that if it was opened up to all faction units without any adjustment Ultramarines would be too strong.

It really wouldn't be. Stormravens can already fall back and shoot fine; Land Raiders would be great because of PotMS; other vehicles like Predators would be hitting on 5s because of the -1 for moving Heavy weapons and -1 for Chapter Tactics.

 

Even Land Raiders would be down to 4+, which makes them effectively very expensive Leman Russ. Considering that Astartes vehicles don't really get any melee buffs (unlike the Leman Russ stratagem, for example) it's not like they want to be in melee.

 

Sure it'd be good, but it'd hardly be super amazing.

[chapter master 454]

It all smacks of early designs.

 

First off: Tanks still suck. Unless they have something to exempt them from it, charging them with weeny units in your massive spam lists is all you need to shut down their shooting for a turn. This is the biggest issue of the edition imo. Infantry still rule supreme and taking armour units is pointless now 2-folld because GW don't test properly or respond properly. Any tank in the game (and further to that anything that proved OP in 7th) is now, regardless of actual effectiveness, is overpriced as hell for marines. Centurion Devastators are a joke. 80 points FOR THE SUIT ALONE where as centurion assaults are 55 points AND get siege drills complimentary. The Centurion devs are literally paying "Hey, you were too good last format so lets take your knees, ankles and anything else away from you" despite the fact this edition already implemented decent rules to help counter-balance wound heavy units.

 

In my opinion some of the issues with the edition come from poorly designed ideas. The orbital Bombardment stratagem is a joke, any of the random hit weapons are a joke this format unless you have "auto-hits" and that comes from piss poor research and testing. Did someone at GW honestly think D3 shots for a demolisher cannon feels good? In theory is means we get more shots! But that falls apart when we need to hit the target when prior to miss that big scary trygon we needed to not only scatter (which was 2/3) but also scatter on the most insane of distances. How the hell does a demolisher cannon MISS FORTIFICATIONS!

 

To be honest, it all really rings of poor design end of. Tacticals still suck and are better off as ad-hoc special weapon teams because of one of the few good changes (combi weapons no longer are one shot), Primaris are not as good as we were scared off (Intercessors are likely the only good thing to come out of them and even then). Points are poorly given to units along with design (some units, even in other armies, are paying the "you were too good last edition" tax).

 

Lets be honest here people, it's a fact that many would back up: if we didn't have Gulliman marines would sink to trash tier before you even blinked and even then most top marine lists also tag in celestine! We literally have to outsource to get anything decent done.

 

I also agree about tactics not applying to tanks. If it was a concern that for some reason tanks having these minor buffs was going to break certain armies then just add exceptions to the tactics. "This tactic does not apply to units with the vehicle unit type" there...done. Sorted. Look at that, holy emperor on his toilet! I mean this is huge, almost like how for some reason squads can't use multiple grenades for some reason? Oh NO, THEY'RE SPAMMING S3 D6 WEAPON ATTACKS, WATCH OUT! oh wait, they are at 8"? wow, well they have had to expose themselves I suppose so that's fine. Even with a follow up charge this would only be an issue for...GASP...HORDE ARMIES!

 

I'm venting heavily here because I feel a lot of points in 8th edition are needing improvement drastically. A lot of it is good, the change to how wounds and units are treated like tanks and so was a good change, they now do feel fairly durable against weapon and anti-tank weapons now feel important (unlike scatter gun the format last edition). How the game is handled has been streamlined well and doesn't rob the game of much fun as most of the rules removed were eccentric additions that just bloated the game. The change to how weapons deal multiple wounds now is a good system because now big units feel big when they can walk through withering gunfire that would shred infantry normally while also keeping them in check with how different weapons can kill them more effectively (along with that, the addition of the Damage stat to weapons has helped make some weapons stand out more than they once did). The biggest issue I have with this edition is random shots. These weapons I think we can all agree universally suck because they are pointed for their best case but often perform well below average due to this. Thunderfire Cannons used to RIP infantry apart but now, even guardsman don't worry much now and it isn't from the change to how strength vs. toughness works (which I also think is a good change. A more sensible easily remember system that helps not only make some units tougher but makes those that are tough feel tough and weapons that are strong, feel strong). Random shot weapons should ALL have auto-hit as a given because isn't that what it's suppose to be an abstraction for? The whole 'roll scatter die + 2D6'?

It isn't the codex that sucks. It's the general rules that suck along with unit point costs. I can't look at those chapter tactics and go "this one sucks so bad" because they are all good. Imperial fists ignore cover, white scars get to advance further and even have the ability to charge after falling back which is really strong for ether helping control a melee or even engage into a new one. Raven Guard gives them good cover vs. gunline armies while salamanders get to re-roll once per unit for hit and wound rolls if I remember right. Black Templars get to re-roll charges (which is really good for them since they often like to get in there) and the ultramarine tactic is just a nice buff all round to your units along with giving you the ability to at least shoot back after being tied up in combat.

If random shot weapons would get a buff (the ones that don't auto-hit) and points were brought into line with how the units actually do then we may get somewhere. until then...Gulliman + celestine if you want to be competitive.

[ninn]

Funny, that you forgot to mention the chapter Tactics of the Imperial Fists. Just like GW.

Still waiting for them.

[Kisada]

Funny, that you forgot to mention the chapter Tactics of the Imperial Fists. Just like GW.

Still waiting for them.

 

I'm confused, the ignore cover has actually been pretty good for me ... would be much nicer if our vehicles also got it though.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Funny, that you forgot to mention the chapter Tactics of the Imperial Fists. Just like GW.

Still waiting for them.

Im not yet convinced that CT is bad.  If it applied to vehicles I think it would be quite solid.

 

The IF stratagem and Relic is nice and terrible though.  

Edited November 29, 2017 by SanguinaryGuardsman

[chapter master 454]

Funny, that you forgot to mention the chapter Tactics of the Imperial Fists. Just like GW.

Still waiting for them.

 

I mentioned them? or was that directed at someone else?

 

In all respects ignoring cover in this edition is a nice solid benefit. While not always useful, neither is a lot of the tactics, each have certain conditions they don't operate well under. Salamanders don't do well with high rate of fire weapons with their tactics, Raven Guard are strongly encouraged to keep a 12" distance when not charging, Ultramarines while constant isn't always useful or even needed while Black Templars have an extremely strong ability that helps up their average charge range due to re-rolls. White scars being able to fall back with a unit then charge again means they can have their bikes and assault squads get into a fight, tie up a squad then on their turn disengage and go after another target immediately. The only 'strictly good' tactic that is always active unless you try to avoid dreads and infantry is the Iron Hands (which should affect vehicles).

 

In terms of stratagems, they should be viewed as something you can build around or make use of. My only issue is that some stratagems cannot be used multiple times in one phase which would make some of the issues go away. Not saying all stratagems should be spammable but some should possibly been CP shifted up and instead affect the army. The IF stratagem could be awesome if it was the IF's version of a blitzkrieg turn. It is something I will comment on stratagems, most don't feel good because they only work with one unit at a time with none allowing an army wide buff. I would think it could lead to interesting list building.

Imagine the IF stratagem was "3CP, Bolter Blitz: During this turn, if an Imperial Fist Unit firing a bolt weapon (Any weapon with "Bolt" in it's name. Dorn's arrow is also a bolt weapon), rolls of 6s cause an extra shot from the weapon (these cannot generate extra attacks). If the model firing hasn't moved this turn this benefit is granted on a 5+ instead."

This stratagem thus encourages the Imperial fist player to bring as much bolt weaponry they can and it rewards those who play the Imperial Fist style of being defence specialists.

 

This is main issue really, everything we have is rather tame in terms of design with no boat pushing. As much as I understand it being a product of cautious design but that is the WORST design to follow. Always push the boat and we are seeing it other codexs: the tyranids get weapons that need no line of sight AND ignore cover! Those weapons just feel like cheating when they fire. Yet look at the marine codex: Nothing feels like this. Nothing. Unless you are Gulliman there are no units that feel awesome to play which is why we can't do anything tournament. Our "Awesome" part is the whole 'jack of all trades' thing which is crap. The idea of the chapter tactics is this is where we pick out special thing, the thing that makes us powerful. Salamander lists should be hella scary when they drop melta on the table, Imperial Fists should be a rightfully difficult army to attack into with their bolt weapons, Ultramarines should be steadfast and hard to pin down (they are the "Water" of the marines), White scar charges should be unstoppable and devastating while Raven Guard just seem to be the shadow you never catch.

 

It isn't that our codex is bad, just that it was designed first and lessons learned from there were not applied to it but instead put onto future codexes. As always. It has always been this way: If out codex were last we would be the god tier army and not eldar or tau or whoever it is right now. Since we are always written first we never get the lessons GW learn from it not just in the design process but also in real world data. I wager when the Tau codex hits they will dominate easily.

[Tamiel]

I would love some sort of bonus to 10man squads. Right now, there's barely any reason to take them.

 

Something like +1 Ld if you have a squad that started out as 10man and did not combat squad. Everyone is taking 5man tac squads.

[Tamiel]

Also, I think there should be a bonus for playing an army that is 100% Marines (from the same chapter). I'm not saying Imperial Soup armies should be nerfed, but pure marine lists need some sort an incentive. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Also, I think there should be a bonus for playing an army that is 100% Marines (from the same chapter). I'm not saying Imperial Soup armies should be nerfed, but pure marine lists need some sort an incentive. 

Ideally you get that from stratagems and chapter tactics which more or less is the case.  

 

I got another one...

 

Veterans of the Long War - 1 CP

Activate this during the fight phase. A unit of Chaos Chosen gains +1 to their wound rolls with their bolterguns combi-boltguns.

 

Damn... that one really was harsh.

[Roderikum]

 

[...]

 

It isn't that our codex is bad, just that it was designed first and lessons learned from there were not applied to it but instead put onto future codexes. As always. It has always been this way: If out codex were last we would be the god tier army and not eldar or tau or whoever it is right now. Since we are always written first we never get the lessons GW learn from it not just in the design process but also in real world data. I wager when the Tau codex hits they will dominate easily.

 

Well, It´s been said so many times, but I think that now is clearer than ever that GW barely test this game. I actually doubt that they can learn anything from one codex to another due to the fact that they have written them long time before their releasing. What we "suffer" is the result of poor (if any) playtesting, the myriad of writters involved in the codex´s design (I can´t find anywhere in the 8th ed. codeci I have who have written them) and the "I go U go" mechanic in the game. It seems like there have not been any kind of common framework in the design of the core rules, nor in the differents codeci released.

I can´t help feeling a little bit cheated on with all the Mournival´s playtesting... I´m not sure if they have actually made it.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Roderikum

[GreyCrow]

Well, it's simple.

 

GW makes the most of their cash selling models. And their models are pretty cool.

 

They do not make most of their money by selling/letting you play games. The Ruleset is mainly there to get you to value the models more.

 

If I was a conspirationist, the best way to sell more models would be to make the starter armies just a tad less good than the rest of the armies, to further incentivize you to upgrade to multiple armies.