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[BluejayJunior]

Leaving aside answers along the lines of "because it's pants!", why do people feel the (what was called FnP) save of those with the Black Rage will be altered from 6+++?

I was wondering the same thing. Based on the wording of the Gift of Foresight warlord trait, I would assume it is staying the same. Otherwise it wouldn't need to state that it changes Black Rage to 5+. 

 

Edit:  Orpheus Black Blood beat me to it. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by BluejayJunior

[Bremon]

Leaving aside answers along the lines of "because it's pants!", why do people feel the (what was called FnP) save of those with the Black Rage will be altered from 6+++?

It’s difficult to answer this question with the stipulation you’ve put in place, but I would say that with the relative frequency of FNP and invulnerable saves in games I play that a 6+++ makes no meaningful difference at all. Death Guard as a faction have access to a plethora of both 5++ and 5+++; it’s wnough to be annoying and a notable trait. A plain 6+++ is only going to raise an opponents eyebrows maybe 1% of the time. A 6+++ is more notable on a Ven Dread because it can take the edge off a missile or lascannon shot, and is like adding a wound or two to the model on average. 6+++ on DC doesn’t even statistically add a single body to a 5 man squad, and seeing as Ven Dreads/ Death Guard etc. have an effective range far greater than 1” it would be appreciated if DC were a touch more durable.

[Charlo]

Leaving aside answers along the lines of "because it's pants!", why do people feel the (what was called FnP) save of those with the Black Rage will be altered from 6+++?

 

Knee jerk reaction from how it used to be.

 

But it seems a 5+ FNP in a widespread fashion is DG's dealio. Which is fine.

[TheHarrower]

Leaving aside answers along the lines of "because it's pants!", why do people feel the (what was called FnP) save of those with the Black Rage will be altered from 6+++?

 

Hope...

[Karhedron]

OK, here's a weird thought. Let's say you have a character and some Company Veterans near the Standard of Sacrifice.

 

 

Your character takes a wound and fails their saves, they then get a 5+++ from the Standard. Now let's assume they fail that too and you chose to hand off the wound on one of the Company veterans. On a 2+ the Veterans suffer a Mortal Wound.

 

Now RAW, there is nothing I can see preventing you from taking another 5+++ save on the Veteran to ignore that Mortal Wound. Probably not that powerful or likely to come up that often but could come in handy.

[Indefragable]

OK, here's a weird thought. Let's say you have a character and some Company Veterans near the Standard of Sacrifice.

 

 

Your character takes a wound and fails their saves, they then get a 5+++ from the Standard. Now let's assume they fail that too and you chose to hand off the wound on one of the Company veterans. On a 2+ the Veterans suffer a Mortal Wound.

 

Now RAW, there is nothing I can see preventing you from taking another 5+++ save on the Veteran to ignore that Mortal Wound. Probably not that powerful or likely to come up that often but could come in handy.

RAW indeed. Standard of Sacrifice on a Company Ancient with a Sang Priest nearby is going to be (dare I even say it) damn near cheesey for us

 

-character fails a save

-5+ Ignores it; but if it fails...

-Company Vet takes a MW instead

-Company Vet gets a 5+ to ignore it; but if that fails...

-Company Vet gets to shoot/attack anyway on a 4+

-Next Movement turn Sang Priest rezzes said Company Vet on a 4+

 

...and of course there’s CP to re-roll any of the above...

...and Corbulo even has a free re-roll on himself...

[GrunTeufel]

I think the ruling for the banner might be to prevent fnp stacking. Different fnp mechanics stack this eddition. (ie: warlord trait 6+++ and black rage stacking when you take lemartes as your warlord.) So the rule might be to prevent DC models getting 5+++ rerollable.

[Panzer]

OK, here's a weird thought. Let's say you have a character and some Company Veterans near the Standard of Sacrifice.

 

 

Your character takes a wound and fails their saves, they then get a 5+++ from the Standard. Now let's assume they fail that too and you chose to hand off the wound on one of the Company veterans. On a 2+ the Veterans suffer a Mortal Wound.

 

Now RAW, there is nothing I can see preventing you from taking another 5+++ save on the Veteran to ignore that Mortal Wound. Probably not that powerful or likely to come up that often but could come in handy.

That's definitely how it works and a really neat trick in our toolbox. ;)

[Indefragable]

Cataphractii Terminator Captain (should we officially get one...so far they’ve just said the 5man unit...) with these buffs is going to make the Iron Hands jealous as :cuss

[Aothaine]

Keep in mind that the standard of sacrifice is a relic. It will replace the other banner's effects. Also, I think DC is going to be 6+++ and if the Warlord is DC and has the gift of foresight on it he gets the 5+++. DC are not supposed to be as resilient as DG. But they can sometimes ignore wounds that would shut down most other marines. The fact that we get a fnp roll at all is amazing. The standard makes our Intecessor units really damn good.

 

 

I am really leaning hard into Intecessors for my first Blood Angels force now. This standard gives them 5+ fnp, Add an apothecary or two into the lines and you have a really resilient wall of 30" 1-ap bolters on units with a built in chainsword that also has +1 to wound so wounds everything T7 and below on a 4+ in melee. These guys are going to be amazing tarpits for our more elite assault and DC squads to charge into and mince. I don't think we need cultists anymore.

[NTaW]

^ the banner is in addition to, not instead of.

[Spagunk]

What NTaW says. The relic specifically mentions this.

[Pendent]

Keep in mind that the standard of sacrifice is a relic. It will replace the other banner's effects. Also, I think DC is going to be 6+++ and if the Warlord is DC and has the gift of foresight on it he gets the 5+++. DC are not supposed to be as resilient as DG. But they can sometimes ignore wounds that would shut down most other marines. The fact that we get a fnp roll at all is amazing. The standard makes our Intecessor units really damn good.

 

 

I am really leaning hard into Intecessors for my first Blood Angels force now. This standard gives them 5+ fnp, Add an apothecary or two into the lines and you have a really resilient wall of 30" 1-ap bolters on units with a built in chainsword that also has +1 to wound so wounds everything T7 and below on a 4+ in melee. These guys are going to be amazing tarpits for our more elite assault and DC squads to charge into and mince. I don't think we need cultists anymore.

 

I've already been having a lot of success with Intercessors using Index rules so I expect I'll use them even more heavily now. I've toyed with the idea of actually running 3 10-man squads with the Codex rules because they'll be a reasonable threat in both shooting and assault and it can be very frustrating for an opponent to try to chew through 60 power armored wounds, particularly if they have a 5+ FNP and Sanguinary Priest healing them and buffing their assault powers even further. They may not have any AP in assault but a block of 10 2-wound bodies with 3+ saves who are wounding MEQ on 2's with priest support is actually sort of scary.

 

[toaae]

The fact that we get a fnp roll at all is amazing.

Feel No Pain was a rule made for Death Company in 3rd edition, and later got handed out to other armies. It represented the insanity of a Death Company marine, who was so far gone, he didn't realize he was already dead.

 

Its sort of a travesty that, now, it is such a weak effect for DC.

[Bremon]

Yeah, I have to agree, it isn’t “amazing” that DC get FNP. Not to be a whiner, but...it just isn’t. 3rd edition FNP was 4+++ lol, I think 5+++ wouldn’t have broken the game in 8th, but I expect 6+++ after wording on rules we’ve seen so far.

[Aothaine]

^ the banner is in addition to, not instead of.

 

Ohhh dang! That is even more amazing then!

[Indefragable]

 

 

^ the banner is in addition to, not instead of.

Ohhh dang! That is even more amazing then!

Yup. So a Company Ancient is insane where you get a 5+ to ignore a Wound, then a 4+ to go out swinging if you fail the 5+.

 

On a different note...have we discussed +1 To Wound means Thunder hammers et al can never fail to Wound MEQ?

 

Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. So any 1’s lying around get +1. 1+1 = 2. Therefore any of our CQW’s that need a 2+ To Wound can’t fail to Wound?

 

Does it explicitly say anywhere that’s 1’s ALWAYS fail? Even if it does, huh get a +1 after all other modifiers...it’s the inverse of how Corbulo’s exploding 6’s can never effect Power Fists or Thunder Hammers.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Indefragable

[Pendent]

 

 

^ the banner is in addition to, not instead of.

Ohhh dang! That is even more amazing then!

Yup. So a Company Ancient is insane where you 5+ to ignore a Wound, then a 4+ tongo out swinging if you fail the 5+.

 

And then with a Priest or Corbulo you could be getting right back up.

[Charlo]

Loving that banner combo for a Hellblaster firebase....!

[Bremon]

 

 

 

^ the banner is in addition to, not instead of.

Ohhh dang! That is even more amazing then!

Yup. So a Company Ancient is insane where you get a 5+ to ignore a Wound, then a 4+ to go out swinging if you fail the 5+.

 

On a different note...have we discussed +1 To Wound means Thunder hammers et al can never fail to Wound MEQ?

 

Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. So any 1’s lying around get +1. 1+1 = 2. Therefore any of our CQW’s that need a 2+ To Wound can’t fail to Wound?

 

Does it explicitly say anywhere that’s 1’s ALWAYS fail? Even if it does, huh get a +1 after all other modifiers...it’s the inverse of how Corbulo’s exploding 6’s can never effect Power Fists or Thunder Hammers.

A natural one is always a fail.

[TheHarrower]

 

The fact that we get a fnp roll at all is amazing.

Feel No Pain was a rule made for Death Company in 3rd edition, and later got handed out to other armies. It represented the insanity of a Death Company marine, who was so far gone, he didn't realize he was already dead.

 

Its sort of a travesty that, now, it is such a weak effect for DC.

 

 

This. Nothing worse than seeing it go from 4+, 5+, to now 6+. I don't care that Death Guard are resilient. It's their schtick and that's fine. Just give us something to compensate. That 6+ rarely comes up and is hardly amazing.

[Bremon]

And that’s fine that 5+++ is DG’s schtick; it can stay that way. I want one, 1, singular, unit to have a 5+++, instead of being a psycho Iron Hands marine in red, not for our army to be red Nurgle worshippers. FNP has been DC’s schtick for 15+ years.

[Pendent]

 

 

The fact that we get a fnp roll at all is amazing.

Feel No Pain was a rule made for Death Company in 3rd edition, and later got handed out to other armies. It represented the insanity of a Death Company marine, who was so far gone, he didn't realize he was already dead.

 

Its sort of a travesty that, now, it is such a weak effect for DC.

 

 

This. Nothing worse than seeing it go from 4+, 5+, to now 6+. I don't care that Death Guard are resilient. It's their schtick and that's fine. Just give us something to compensate. That 6+ rarely comes up and is hardly amazing.

 

Death Company would probably need a price increase if the FNP got better, honestly. They're already priced so similarly to normal veterans that it just takes making a single 6+ FNP to make up the difference.

 

It would be nice if they were tougher but at least they'll have some absolutely incredible damage output.

[JamesI]

 

 

 

The fact that we get a fnp roll at all is amazing.

Feel No Pain was a rule made for Death Company in 3rd edition, and later got handed out to other armies. It represented the insanity of a Death Company marine, who was so far gone, he didn't realize he was already dead.

 

Its sort of a travesty that, now, it is such a weak effect for DC.

 

 

This. Nothing worse than seeing it go from 4+, 5+, to now 6+. I don't care that Death Guard are resilient. It's their schtick and that's fine. Just give us something to compensate. That 6+ rarely comes up and is hardly amazing.

 

Death Company would probably need a price increase if the FNP got better, honestly. They're already priced so similarly to normal veterans that it just takes making a single 6+ FNP to make up the difference.

 

It would be nice if they were tougher but at least they'll have some absolutely incredible damage output.

 

Right now, I would rather have Veterans for the slightly cheaper cost and the 5+ FNP banner.  

[Indefragable]

A natural one is always a fail.

...but then you would never get re-roll’s for 1’s with a Capt et al either.