Khorne Berserkers: Auras Discussions

[Aothaine]

So I tend to want to avoid named characters with my armies as I like to have my own story going on. I really like the rules for Alpha Legion and I was thinking about running Khorne Berserkers with them.

 

Dark Apostle x2

Exalted Champion x2

 

4 units of Khorne Berserkers x9 in Rhinos

 

Chaos Predators (Quad-lascannon) as heavy support (2-3)

 

Pretty simple list but I was wondering what you might add to it to expand it if points allowed.

 

But also, are the auras even needed with the Berserkers? Re-rolling all hits and wounds on them should be pretty tasty with axes right?

Edited November 27, 2017 by Aothaine

[Lord Asvaldir]

Are they absolutely needed? I wouldn't say so, but can you really go wrong with rerolling hits/wounds on a unit with a high number of attacks? I'd say no, rerolls are always nice to have, and if you are going to load up on a whole bunch of units of zerkers the rerolls only get better as one character will be effecting multiple units. Your ratio of one character to every two units is reasonable, though I don't know if you need two apostles and two exalted heroes. 

 

With any pts remaining I'd grab some cultists, those predators need a meat shield to stop alpha strikers. Rest of the list I'd say is really up to personal preference. 

[Closet Skeleton]

Alpha legion don't need rhinos and no legion trait benefits tanks anyway. Alpha legion might be the most powerful legion but you've written a list that would be better with World Eaters (or anything but Iron Warriors really, even word bearers would be better if you're not infiltrating and are going to be within 12" as much as possible). Alpha legion players don't take rhinos for their berserkers, they take big units of 15-20 and infiltrate them.

 

Auras are good but not so necessary you need duplicates. Take sorcerers if you're not world eaters.

[Sgt. Blank]

The list you outlined is very close to what Ive run my last two games, although I play Worldeaters. Its worked pretty well for me so far.

 

To answer your question about the HQs, you probably don't need one per squad. I use one apostle and one champion and try to position them for max benefit. In general, the Berserkers kill what they charge, the rerolls help when trying to now down multiple units at once or kill something real tough before it attacks back.

 

Their big weaknesses are durability if targeted or charged, since they die as easily as any other MEQ, and speed to reach assault to produce damage. Sorceror(s) can help with speed with Warptime and might be a worthwhile alternative.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

Echoing what everyone else has said, this would make a really nice World Eaters list- Alpha Legion can infiltrate Berzerkers and not taking advantage of that would be a bit crazy.

 

To answer your question, I think you can't go wrong slapping the wound and hit auras on the same squad (hopefully several squads at once)- I've killed Guilliman multiple times before he could even swing with this same combo, for example.  However, I think having 4 HQs like this seems a bit overkill. The points you're spending on the extra HQs might be better spent on more fire support for your 'zerks, or maybe put those points towards upgrading one of those Rhinos to a Land Raider (which certainly would qualify as more fire support, but would also synergize well with an assault list).

[ChazSexington]

As you're running World Eaters and Word Bearers in an Alpha Legion list, I'm guessing it's competitive? Either way, you don't need the Rhinos for Alpha Legion - our vehicles aren't -1 to Hit, and you'd be better off running World Eaters. I'm not being judgy, just trying to figure out how to best help. 

 

I'd say you could consider a Sorcerer - Prescience and/or Warptime will do them good! Chaos Lords for more glorious hits as well - you get so many attacks, you might as well!

[Sception]

Not all 'zerks are world eaters, and even among those that technically are, as many or more fight as scattered mercenary bands for other legions rather than as a legion of their own.  Not all Apostles are word bearers, and even among those that technically are, as many or more offer their services to other legions as missionaries spreading the Word.

 

No reason to hate on an Alpha Legion player who includes either in their army, imo.  As things currently stand, anti-chaos Chaos Marines are a thing of the past (whether we're talking real world or in universe), and I hope it stays that way.

[ChazSexington]

Not all 'zerks are world eaters, and even among those that technically are, as many or more fight as scattered mercenary bands for other legions rather than as a legion of their own.  Not all Apostles are word bearers, and even among those that technically are, as many or more offer their services to other legions as missionaries spreading the Word.

 

No reason to hate on an Alpha Legion player who includes either in their army, imo.  As things currently stand, anti-chaos Chaos Marines are a thing of the past (whether we're talking real world or in universe), and I hope it stays that way.

 

I wasn't hating on it, I even included that in my reply :) 

 

While not all Berzerkers or Dark Apostles are officially World Eaters/Word Bearers, they are waaaaay more common in those Legions. 

 

 

[Closet Skeleton]

To answer your question, I think you can't go wrong slapping the wound and hit auras on the same squad (hopefully several squads at once)- I've killed Guilliman multiple times before he could even swing with this same combo, for example.  However, I think having 4 HQs like this seems a bit overkill.

 

I'd agree. The option of doubling up those auras is sometimes needed, but its better to have more troops and the option to focus force then having less troops who are always benefiting from an aura they might not need.

 

 

No reason to hate on an Alpha Legion player who includes either in their army, imo.  As things currently stand, anti-chaos Chaos Marines are a thing of the past (whether we're talking real world or in universe), and I hope it stays that way.

 

There's no reason to criticize someone who wants to play mechanized Alpha Legion either but if they ask for advice on a forum one does kind of have to reply when potential is being wasted.

 

The only unfluffy chaos lists are ones that mix and match Special characters that hate each other or rely on synergies from opposed gods (khorne/slaanesh and tzeentch/nurgle). Apart from that there are only various levels of plausible but rare armies and highly themed armies intended to represent the epitome of a subfaction's fighting style.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Closet Skeleton

[Prot]

Personally I think the era of not including things based on 'fluff' instead of rules is entirely and completely up the individual but really shouldn't be pushed past that. GW is showing us that with the way Chaos as evolved (devolved?) over the years.

 

I would put a psyker in the Word Eaters style army. (There is always support for this somewhere). Or if you want to put an 'enemy' god unit in your army, there is going to always be a circumstance (as extreme as it might seem) that would allow this.

 

It's just a game... play it how you like (within the rules of course).

 

Chaos has a lot going against it. My advice is don't further handicap yourself if you can help it though.

[Panzer]

Many unfluffy things can easily get overriden by narrative.^^

[SquidSempai]

It actually happens I  did the math for just that last night, and turns out that for the price of an exalted champion, with power weapon, berserker actually becomes less point efficient. As in, they do less wound per points, tested agaisnt marine statline and dreadnaught equivalent statline. Berserker with chainaxe and chainsword are stupidly point efficient, so the best solution should always be to : just take more!

[THUNDERFISTS]

That's very interesting. Could you post the math for this?

[Prot]

It actually happens I  did the math for just that last night, and turns out that for the price of an exalted champion, with power weapon, berserker actually becomes less point efficient. As in, they do less wound per points, tested agaisnt marine statline and dreadnaught equivalent statline. Berserker with chainaxe and chainsword are stupidly point efficient, so the best solution should always be to : just take more!

I like the theory, but how is this possible without a wounding buff from a character that do decent damage on his own and can take a decent relic.

[SquidSempai]

Here goes, someone correct me if I forgot something : 

5 khorne berserker against a MEQ statline. 
10 chainaxe, 5 chainsword attacks, do it twice (lets consider that we charged and so we strike first) : 5.8 wounds, 14.65 points per wounds.

5 khorne berserker against Dreadnaught statline (T7, 3+).
3 wounds, 28.33 points per wound.

Now lets say we add a barebone exalted champion with power sword.

5 berserker against MEQ statline.
7.8 wounds, but 20 points per wounds (without calculating the attacks from the exalted champion) or 9.9 wounds, 16.26 points per wounds

against Dreadnaught statline.
4.9 wounds, 32 points per wound (without calculating the attacks from the exalted champion) or 6.4 wounds 25 points per wounds.

now I did the math for a small squad, and just now got to thinking the buff is probably better costed on max sized squad, because the price of the buff stays the same but become better in effect. So let's try it : 

20 berserker, with exalted, VS MEQ Statline
31.6  wounds, 12.35 points per wound

and versus dreadnaught statline
21.29 wounds, 19.53 points per wound

so there you have it. 
Arguably, the power sword is the best bet for an exalted champ, and so helps him quite a lot to do some damage, but he's not quite able to really punch as hard as a zerker, so you mainly take him for the reroll. 
The 20 man squad benefit actually a bit from the exalted, and the break point is probably around 15 zerker, where he actually buffs them instead of impeding them.
The real buff is when hunting anything T7.

But then if you're not alpha legion, you'll have to get those zerker in range and that means at least 2 rhino for a 19 marine blob and the exalted, adding quite a bit of point to the whole tactic.

Cheers!

[Cheex]

Of course an aura but isn't going to be efficient when it only applies to 5 models and when you don't include special weapons on the champs. You're not going to be running an Exalted for every 5 berzerkers.

 

As for the extra points spent on rhinos: if you're not running AL or Land Raiders, then you're going to be buying those rhinos anyway.

 

And you're not going to be taking the Exalted just for fun. You take it as your second HQ, since you need at least two for a battalion.

[SquidSempai]

personally, and that is a bit offtopic, the problem is that khorne berserker are so efficient that they litteraly invalidate most melee choice in the codex. No other unit come even close to their damage output, even against their weakness, T5-7 target with good save. At least ranged unit have distance going for them, or maybe special rules or cover saves to think about, but for most melee unit, you just want them to reach melee as fast as possible, and since turn 1 charge is readily available, then you're better of taking the most killy unit. Zerker have it all though : good damage output, 2 pile-in to move a lot, lots of attack AND high strenght AND AP. 

The point is that there's no problem that can't really be solved by : just buy more zerker, and a way for them to reach melee combat fast. It quickly makes listbuilding kinda dull IMO.

[Cheex]

Just ran the numbers. You need around 12 Berzerkers to be within range of the EC for the buff to be equally points efficient vs MEqs.

 

That said, I'd suggest a Dark Apostle instead of an Exalted Champion more often than not. The EC is better against high-toughness targets, but the DA has an invul save and also provides a leadership aura.

[Prot]

First off... I really don't understand all the Rhino hate. No they aren't great, but the time they buy me, the things they do for me... I find them almost mandatory even in my Renegade lists. Maybe I'm the only one playing guys with masses of indirect or long range but low end firepower?

 

The Rhino is pretty big to my army plans. I hate buying them, but I have 2 per list. Landraiders are hard... Started out in love with them, but just can't even make myself take one lately. That said back to the issue....

 

Zerkers with axes and a chainsword are good, but it's the mechanics of 8th that hurt them. I'm continually interrupted by assault armies with superior Command Points (all of my opponents seem to have more than me, but especially Nids and Orks).

 

So for me the breakdown of Zerker efficiency boils down to one round of close combat efficiency. I will get to go twice, then my other squad will almost always die (unless they're still hiding in a RHino/etc.)

 

After round 1 is over, typically that's it for the Zerkers too. So maximizing their output to me, means keeping them dirt cheap.

 

It is interesting to note though that I'd be better off with a Dark Apostle. I've just been in love with the idea of the Exalted since he dropped, but I guess I never gave the DA a shot in 8th.

[ChazSexington]

First off... I really don't understand all the Rhino hate. No they aren't great, but the time they buy me, the things they do for me... I find them almost mandatory even in my Renegade lists. Maybe I'm the only one playing guys with masses of indirect or long range but low end firepower?

 

The Rhino is pretty big to my army plans. I hate buying them, but I have 2 per list. Landraiders are hard... Started out in love with them, but just can't even make myself take one lately. That said back to the issue....

 

Zerkers with axes and a chainsword are good, but it's the mechanics of 8th that hurt them. I'm continually interrupted by assault armies with superior Command Points (all of my opponents seem to have more than me, but especially Nids and Orks).

 

So for me the breakdown of Zerker efficiency boils down to one round of close combat efficiency. I will get to go twice, then my other squad will almost always die (unless they're still hiding in a RHino/etc.)

 

After round 1 is over, typically that's it for the Zerkers too. So maximizing their output to me, means keeping them dirt cheap.

 

It is interesting to note though that I'd be better off with a Dark Apostle. I've just been in love with the idea of the Exalted since he dropped, but I guess I never gave the DA a shot in 8th.

 

Just gonna point out, your opponent can only interrupt you once per Fight phase. If you have it, you could consider a Kharybdis with 20 Berzerkers. Try Warptiming them 1" away from as many enemy units as possible, charge, then Fight three times against any enemy unit within 12". There's should be anything left alive. 

[Prot]

Yes, Strategems are unique (my opponents have never interrupted twice in a turn). It's all it takes though. You can pretty much guarantee everything is dead in these assaults (for both sides) so I really don't recommend charging with 2 units of Zerkers against such an army. 100% of the time I've lost the second squad before it swings.

 

How would I fight 3 times though? I thought it was twice for Zerkers?

[SquidSempai]

stratagem, spend 3 points and make a Khorne infantry or biker unit fight again. (So fight twice for everyone, or thrice for zerker). It cost a whooping lot of CP for a pure legion army, but can help a lot when you want to make sure the thing you charged dies this turn.

[ChazSexington]

stratagem, spend 3 points and make a Khorne infantry or biker unit fight again. (So fight twice for everyone, or thrice for zerker). It cost a whooping lot of CP for a pure legion army, but can help a lot when you want to make sure the thing you charged dies this turn.

 

Not if you take 3x10 (or 15) Cultists. 

[Closet Skeleton]

First off... I really don't understand all the Rhino hate. No they aren't great, but the time they buy me, the things they do for me... I find them almost mandatory even in my Renegade lists. Maybe I'm the only one playing guys with masses of indirect or long range but low end firepower?

 

No one's hating on rhinos, a guy said he was thinking of doing an alpha legion army and posted rhino list and asked for advice and the reply was that Alpha Legion specifically have no synergy with rhino lists.

 

Point for point rhinos are one of the best things in the chaos book, I would say that 'not great' is selling them short. Its just that the best legion tactics are the Alpha Legion ones which don't gel well with rhinos.

[Khornestar]

Any thoughts with the points alterations for Kharybdis (now 375...) and Dreadclaws (130)?

 

Kharybdis was formerly great, now 75 points more expensive, while the Dreadclaw is 70 points cheaper. Still you can almost buy 2 Rhinos for the cost of 1 Dreadclaw.

 

Might as well just take the 'zerkers in an AL detachment and avoid paying any transport cost for a blob of 20, just 1 CP.