The FAQ Crusade

[Marshal_Roujakis]

adding a +1 to Hit when we get shot in Overwatch won't make much sense, since charges are done after the shooting phase, so it will be useless until we either get hit again during the enemy phase, and it becomes much worse if the enemy falls back, because you'd be getting a +1 to Hit from getting shot, but not be able to charge nor shoot during that player turn...

 

also, getting a +1 to Hit when a squad has 5 members does not make sense even at shooting... 5/10 guys makes Marines Assassins instead of Zealots... it just doesn't reflect Black Templars in general in that respect... having +1 Attack seems much more fitting for what Templars are and how they are described in the fluff... angry, stubborn, Chainsword wielding Zealots, who want to see their enemies drown in their blood up close and personal... +1 to Hit seems far more appropriate with the likes of Ultramarines or Imperial Fists...

 

The charging is somewhat reflective of how Templars are portrayed most of the time by GW... they attack and charge first screaming words of purity and hate... as is how they are designed as well... Land Raider Crusaders are built for charging headlong into combat, with Grenade Launchers at the front ramp, and mid-close ranged weaponry on 3 sides, Crusader Squads have the numbers and the weaponry to hit solidly in melee, even in how their artwork is usually denoted, they usually have chainswords or power swords drawn out, ready to vanquish the enemy in hand to hand combat... it just screams Templars to be charging out against the enemies of mankind...

 

So having a rule that aids in charging is very reflective of how Templars are... i.e. rerolls to Charge into CC...

We might not be Blood Angels, but I think their niche is quite different from ours... while we may e proficient with charging the enemies into melee, BA charges the enemies in melee with Jump Packs and fast vehicles... unlike BT which has to rely on the slow grind to get to grips with our foes... usually getting whittled down in the process before getting stuck into melee...

Charging is essential to Templars, but the reroll to charge distance, feels more akin to BA than BT and getting +1 Attack on the charge, feels more BT than BA...

[Aegir_Einarsson]

And that is reason that i posted righteus zeal.

 

Crusaders are strong in Numbers. 20 Man squad footslogging on the board. Losing some wounds during shooting in the enemy turn. Then in the next turn we can charge after advance, representing zeal And anger.

 

 

And then If we are in combat with +- 15 Man squad with Chaplain And captain/helbrecht nearby, we are potent in combat.

 

I think it is not OP, fluff Ok, And easy to inplement in the rules.

 

And If we charge out of LRC we can make:

 

If the LRC have <blac templars> keyword, units that embarked on can assault after movement (Probably needs better wording) but you know What i mean.

[Firepower]

Well while we're wish listing, LRC may treat Hurricane Bolters as 12 pistols in the fight phase if on the same turn it disembarked a Black Templar unit... :)

[Schlitzaf]

Rou, our two melee vows where +1 STR -1 Init and PE. And preferred enemy meant hitting on 3+ always. Until it became rerolls in 5th. So having a buff increase our hit chance is not out of the ordinary.

 

In either case, a +1 ATK Buff would be fine. I’d just want something that feels more unique and about us getting a consistency. And more defined niche. Also even if just make it melee only, we could draw on the Templar Brothern.

 

That said I mostly think if we are to get a functional niche or unique identity. The best way would be expanding our Crusader Squads with Biker Crusaders and perhaps a Unit that combines Scouts/Reivars. And have abilities that triggered off that.

 

Like if we have unit with mixed Sv they get plus 1 attack, if the squad has a Sword Brother +1 to Hit. But that is highly unlikely. In either case.

 

I am fundamentally against it being triggered by charging.

[Stefan]

Why  not put vows back in if you take an Emperor's Champion that effects key word "Black Templars"?

 

Vow 1: Allows all key word "BT" models to DNW once per turn, can stack with strategem to improve it by +1

 

Vow 2: +1 attack and +1 str on successful charges

 

Vow 3: +d3 inches to charges and consolidations

 

Vow 4: Upon being charged, roll a D6. On a 4+, the unit being charged successfully counter charge on rolling 2D6, and cannot be the target of overwatch shooting.  

 

These are just very rough ideas, with some potentially being much better/OP, but maybe gives some food for thought.  It's a simple add, with each vow costing X points or CP points, and you can take only 1.  

[SydonianDragoon404]

 

Also, while this is a great idea, it needs better wording... mainly because, you could take the ruling as 3 "or's" instead of being 3 "and's"

unless that's what you're after... but the Overwatch wound becomes pointless mainly because you can pull off a +1 Attack just as long as your squad charges...

 

So is it:

Squad needs to be minimum 5 Wounds + Charging + got injured by Overwatch = +1 Attack

-or-

Squad needs to be minimum 5 Wounds or Charging or got injured by Overwatch = +1 Attack

 

second one seems OP since as long as we charge we get +1 attack, 1st one though has a lot of requirements to be met, and once you get an injury in a 5 man squad, there goes your CT bonuses...

 

I did intend the second choice, but as others have pointed out thus far, it seems like we get the bonus too often if one of the stipulations is only that the unit charged. So perhaps the rule ought to be worded:

 

"Chapter Tactic: Might of the Templars- If a Black Templar Infantry or Dreadnought unit has more than 5 wounds total, and/or has taken a casualty from an enemy shooting attack, enemy overwatch, or psychic power during either player turn, all models in that unit gain +1 attack when that unit fights in the fight phase." 

Edited November 29, 2017 by SydonianDragoon404

[Medjugorje]

Blood Angels are like berserkers. They are stronger, so they get bonus on to wound rolls. we are the champions in duelling, it means we need to get better to hit rolls. In the past we got always to rolls ont 3+ and later ro reroll that stuff. I think it would be nice to get always +1 to hit rolls in the fight phase.

[Marshal Arthur]

Why  not put vows back in if you take an Emperor's Champion that effects key word "Black Templars"?

 

Vow 1: Allows all key word "BT" models to DNW once per turn, can stack with strategem to improve it by +1

 

Vow 2: +1 attack and +1 str on successful charges

 

Vow 3: +d3 inches to charges and consolidations

 

Vow 4: Upon being charged, roll a D6. On a 4+, the unit being charged successfully counter charge on rolling 2D6, and cannot be the target of overwatch shooting.  

 

These are just very rough ideas, with some potentially being much better/OP, but maybe gives some food for thought.  It's a simple add, with each vow costing X points or CP points, and you can take only 1.  

 

I like the idea of adding vows but it might be best to ask for that as optional rules in  white dwarf or something. I believe someone is trying to start a letter writing campaign for this exact sort of thing. I say we break our request into three main parts: first our simple adjustments to points that are the most palatable to GW and don't give Templars a bunch of additional rules outright. Second are simple rules added to our chapter tactic and stratagem as well as simple adjustments to stratagems overall which shouldn't be overpowered but add some flavor and a little more power to our faction. Third are more sweeping rule changes and larger additions (like vows or biker crusaders) that are less likely to be implemented anytime soon but may give them ideas for the future.

[Marshal Arthur]

This is what we have so far. The main things we need to discuss are changes to our tactics and stratagems and if there's anything on here not worth requesting or anything we're missing.

 

 

 

Phase 1: Point Adjustments

-decrease the neophyte point cost by 1 or 2 points

-decrease the LRC point cost

-decrease the drop pod point cost

-decrease the point costs of both centurion variants

-decrease the chaplain and Chaplain Grimaldus point costs

 

I feel like we're in agreement on these changes and are the safest and most likely requests to be answered. Am I missing anything or are there any other thoughts on point adjustments?

 

 

 

Phase 2: Chapter Tactic and Stratagem Adjustments/Minor Rule Adjustments

-lower the cost for "Honour The Chapter" from 3CP to 2CP

 

-I'm adding a suggestion to change the Killshot and Linebreak stratagems to only require one predator and vindicator respectively. As is it has too high an entry cost to actually be of use

 

-Land Raider changes:

   -If a Land Raider is chosen as the target for an enemy assault any embarked units may attempt to assault   the enemy unit. If the embarked unit's charge roll is sufficient the enemy charge immediately fails. (We   could also make this a stratagem)

   -give Land Raider's the Steel Behemoth rule

   -and/or give Land Raiders the Adamantium Tracks rule

   -make Land Raider Crusaders dedicated transport options for Black Templar armies

 

-another request is to remove the restriction on units embarked on drop pods that prevents them from disembarking within 9" of an enemy unit

 

-add a second part to our chapter tactic (this is where some contention has arisen so we need to come to an agreement on our tactic and stratagem request)

   -Option A: If a Black Templar has at least 5 wounds or lost a wound to overwatch or an enemy shooting       phase each model in the unit gains +1 Attack for the remainder of the turn

   -Option B: If a Black Templar is targeted by a psychic power they may roll a die and on a 5+ it fails

   -Option C: Once per turn if an enemy psyker uses a power within 24" of a Black Templar unit you may roll   a die and on a 4+ the power fails

   -Option D: If a Black Templar unit takes any wounds from enemy shooting then they may advance and   charge on the same turn

   -Option E: When a Black Templar unit makes a consolidate move it may move 3+D3 inches.

 

-change our stratagem (again there's debate here but I think once we settle on our chapter tactic this matter should clear up)

   -Option A: leave as is

   -Option B: 1CP select one Black Templar unit and each model in the unit gains +1 Attack for the   remainder  of the turn

   -Option C: 1CP select one Black Templar transport. The unit inside may disembark and assault after the     transport has moved

   -Option D: 1CP If an enemy unit declares an assault on a Black Templar transport the embarked unit may   attempt to assault it instead (or this can just be a permanent rule for Land Raiders)

 

 

 

Phase 3: Larger Rule Adjustments

 

-clarify the roles of different space marine units so there is less overlap (we'll need to decide what distinguishes terminators from centurions and similar elite models)

 

-return Black Templar vows

 

-add biker crusader options

 

-LRC hurricane bolters count as pistol 12 in close combat

 

-mixed save crusader squads gain +1 Attack

 

-Sword Brethren add +1 to hit rolls/or Sword Brethren have 2+ to hit instead of 3+

[Schlitzaf]

Guys what would everyone think if our chapter tactic said

 

“If a Black Templar uses a weapon in the fight phase with an AP of -1 or greater, they may attack an additional time with that weapon.”

 

Buff our Crusader Squads and buff our Terminators and Vangaurd

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Guys what would everyone think if our chapter tactic said

 

“If a Black Templar uses a weapon in the fight phase with an AP of -1 or greater, they may attack an additional time with that weapon.”

 

Buff our Crusader Squads and buff our Terminators and Vangaurd

 

A Little too specific to a certain weapon type...

GW usually refers to generalize armies for CT and with a strict preference for Dreads and Infantry or whatever the Chapter is supposed to specialize at...

I tried the +1 to Hit on a test game... it practically removed my need to roll to Hit in melee at all... I never even bothered a single reroll from Helbrecht or the Chaplain... makes Chapter Masters or Lieutenants redundant I guess... I'd prefer if they still have their niche of helping out instead of just hanging back in the gunline providing rerolls for ranged weapons...

 

Tried the +1 Attack against a Chaos Nurgle army... it was handy to say the least... any time I'd get the charge, I'd have a slightly better success at knocking down wounds with chainswords unlike before where it felt like hitting an I-beam with the palm of your hand...

 

Also tried the 4+ one time use psychic block against a GK army... it helped a little bit as expected, but not a lot since they can pull off power left right and center... and tried again against a Chaos army with one sorcerer... it can cancel decent powers... but all I did the entire game was cancel smite... it was handy since it got my EC into grips with the Sorcerers throat without getting Mortally Wounded early...

 

Hated it, but also tried adding Primaris with standard Crusaders... I don't have the Primaris Repulsive Tank, so the squad ended up walking... shot to pieces, and threw the Primaris model into the bin afterwards...

 

I think the best thing to do at this point, instead of just proposing it and looking at what it can do on paper... get a friend, test the proposals out... see if it works and if it's not too complicated... if it complicates the rule too much, see how we can simplify it... if it feels too OP, then see how you can mitigate it to have balance with other factions... we don't want to promote Codex creep again don't we?

[Medjugorje]

adding a +1 to Hit when we get shot in Overwatch won't make much sense, since charges are done after the shooting phase,

 

??? +1 to hit is a thing you can use in your close combat phase? If you make a attack with a powerfist you need a 4+ to hit roll right?

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

adding a +1 to Hit when we get shot in Overwatch won't make much sense, since charges are done after the shooting phase,

 

??? +1 to hit is a thing you can use in your close combat phase? If you make a attack with a powerfist you need a 4+ to hit roll right?

 

 

It was referring to getting +1 to Hit when shooting... after getting a wound from Overwatch... the wording was on the player turn, and when you suffer a wound from Overwatch and +1 to Hit on both CC and in shooting... getting it for CC is ok, but getting it for Shooting makes 0 sense mainly because you can't shoot since charges are done in the Assault Phase...

 

I didn't put a context regarding the previous post, but I should have... my bad...

 

and the context:

 

 

 

Schlitzaf, on 30 Nov 2017 - 04:45 AM, said:

I’d remove the charging portion of it entirely personally. But everyone else seems to want to focus on the charge. And the 5 wound thing is meant to incentive not taking 5 Man MSU Crusaders instead going for larger Squads.

Also +1 to Hit in general would include when we shooting things. But in either case, I believe it’s ‘or’ and I’d personally remove the charging aspect. It doesn’t feel right to me and I’d keep the focus squad promoting larger squad size.

So I’d keep if the squad took a casualty from enemy shooting this turn (including being pistol whipped for example) or if it has more than 5 wounds.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Marshal_Roujakis

[Sete]

We need Primaris Crusader Squad and a Crusader Repulsor.

 

Then our CT with the average primaris dude dishing 3 attacks and a Bolt pistol one makes it awesome.

[Marshal Arthur]

 

 

I think the best thing to do at this point, instead of just proposing it and looking at what it can do on paper... get a friend, test the proposals out... see if it works and if it's not too complicated... if it complicates the rule too much, see how we can simplify it... if it feels too OP, then see how you can mitigate it to have balance with other factions... we don't want to promote Codex creep again don't we?

 

Sounds like a good idea. If everyone can try out as much as possible over December and post any findings here and we'll formalize an official faq request.

[Marshal Arthur]

GW has created an email inbox just for rule questions and suggestions. After we’ve tested some suggestions we have a great avenue to reach them now.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I think that we can Create an e-mail, And all of us can sens it separatly. The more e-mail send the more chance to change:) Edited December 16, 2017 by Aegir_Einarsson

[Schlitzaf]

Let’s pick what we want to do for this as a collective

1) First and foremost Neophytes point reduction.

2) BT Tactics or Crusader Squads explicitly enabling or unlocking LRC as a Dedicated Transport

3) Point Reduction on LR Chassis

 

I think those three can all three be agreed and reasonably be asked for. However the second issue, which I will make a second thread. Is what do we want as army. More importantly how do we want GW to see us an army? And how should we be defined as in comparison to other SM lists.

[Brother Talarian]

Awesome. Great initiative an opportunity to suggest minor rule changes etc. Even better if we can provide stats on our own battles with some rules.

 

I never understood why the LRC needs to be a DT for BT? You take a heavy support a lot instead. There's no different functionality. Do people really field that many HS slots?

 

I'd much rather them work something out that reflects the BTs CC ability and stubbornness.

[Schlitzaf]

I suspect that the reason we don’t have it. And honestly for me atleast its a flavor thing. And would personally run 2 Devies, 2 Tide Crusaders, 2 Rhino Mounted Fire Support, if I ever dropped my Intercessors and went pure. And I’d prefer not to have forced to take a spearhead for my Crusader Squad transports.

[Marshal Arthur]

The point reductions are definitely agreed on by all. I still don’t think the LRC needs to be a dedicated transport but it’s not a big thing to ask for so why not. Are we good all building a message around that and sending it or do we also want to decide on any changes to our tactic as well? I think we can leave the charge rerolls and our stratagem and at most just add a small addition to our tactic. If that’s the case I think a bonus attack on the charge (either in any charge or whenever we take a casualty to overwatch like last edition) or a bonus to consolidation moves are best.

[Schlitzaf]

I’d like additional consolidation moves at it be flavorful and lets get more of our boys in

[Aegir_Einarsson]

consolidation 6" like some nids have.

[Firepower]

So just as something to remember: FAQs are not generally made to introduce new rules, like Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, different mechanics for charging, but to clarify and tweak existing rules (sometimes including point costs, but mostly as corrections to contradicting entries).

 

So either the thread title is misleading (seems to be, judging by the OP) or hopes are being pinned on a horse for a flight to New Hampshire.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Firepower

[Marshal Arthur]

According to GW their bi-annual FAQs will deal with balancing issues that may include slight rule changes. That's where the name comes from.