How to return IG Platoons to 8th?

[Karack Blackstone]

Question for the Astra Militarum players, as I just had this thought occur to me: what might be a fair points value to allow Infantry Platoons back into 8th Ed.?

 

I am sorry for getting everyone's hopes up, it's just, it seems far more fluffy to have Platoons, just keeping the old 1 HQ Squad, 2+ Infantry Squads, etc.

 

Thoughts? I am debating the way to try and make a case to GW for this long term, however, please realize, I am posting this here as it might be in either an FAQ next year, or the next Chapter Approved. This is just an idea, and it might not even work. Still, this just felt right, when it was a thing.

[Spyboy]

@Karack Blackstone

What do you mean fair points value, everything previously in a platoon now has its own rules and points value. Are there extra rules you are adding?

[Halfpint100]

Question for the Astra Militarum players, as I just had this thought occur to me: what might be a fair points value to allow Infantry Platoons back into 8th Ed.?

 

I am sorry for getting everyone's hopes up, it's just, it seems far more fluffy to have Platoons, just keeping the old 1 HQ Squad, 2+ Infantry Squads, etc.

 

Thoughts? I am debating the way to try and make a case to GW for this long term, however, please realize, I am posting this here as it might be in either an FAQ next year, or the next Chapter Approved. This is just an idea, and it might not even work. Still, this just felt right, when it was a thing.

I wholeheartily disagree. I am happy that platoons are not a thing, the option is there for you to do it, but it is not compulsory. In the IG books, they didn't always have that many officers per infantry squads or always have command squads. Many did, but not all. It was impossible to do a Guants Ghosts army with the old platoons, but is more possible now.

 

I prefer the flexibility we have now, of the option to do either. Rather than being forced to do one way. It allows more styles of regimental combat, like having officers with squads in chimeras (which happens a fair bit)

 

P.s. thinking about it, you could probably make a new topic about this to get everyone's thoughts?

Edited November 30, 2017 by Halfpint100

[CoffeeGrunt]

Can still do them with Detachments if you really, really want to.

[Karack Blackstone]

Okay, that makes sense.

 

Thanks for the feedback; a thread of its own makes sense.

 

To say it, I should have typed that adding the option to do old style Platoons as a standard Troops choice to the current range of options is more what I wanted, now that I can clarify further. Thanks again, I will make a thread and try to put my fully thought out idea in that thread.

[duz_]

Split into a new topic, not relevant to CA leaks thread.

[Karack Blackstone]

Split into a new topic, not relevant to CA leaks thread.

 

Apologies and thanks, duz_.

[WarriorFish]

While the Platoon had character, the changed FOC means they'd be less useful now and would be very restrictive. You can build them as mentioned so you can still retain the system if you'd like, for example if you had Platoon markings :) I think the currents system is a lot simpler and more flexible which is great, works with 8th neatly too.

 

The only way I could see Platoons returning in some way would be as detachment of their own, with some form of bonus perhaps but then I think we'd be getting back to the countless formations of 7th which would get messy again so I don't think that'd be a good idea.

[Karack Blackstone]

While the Platoon had character, the changed FOC means they'd be less useful now and would be very restrictive. You can build them as mentioned so you can still retain the system if you'd like, for example if you had Platoon markings I think the currents system is a lot simpler and more flexible which is great, works with 8th neatly too.

 

The only way I could see Platoons returning in some way would be as detachment of their own, with some form of bonus perhaps but then I think we'd be getting back to the countless formations of 7th which would get messy again so I don't think that'd be a good idea.

 

Fair.

 

This thread was just a thought, and I sometimes post ideas to seek out other points of view, perhaps prematurely at times, others, it helps me.

 

I will check back in and see how discussion continues in time. For now, I am actually starting to understand the perspective of the specialists here, as far as having games under their belts go. Thanks all.

[duz_]

Platoons were great in previous editions due to the restrictive nature of the FOC

So you could squeeze more troops into the same FOC as everyone else

Great in theory, but the points on Guard meant it wasn't as attractive as it sounded

 

In this edition we now have cheap troops to easily fill out battalions and brigades

We can still run platoon commanders and command squads if need be

Bonus there's no senior order restrictions either

[Kinstryfe]

The only possible reason to want platoons back as they were is to form blob squads of Guardsmen. Since that's basically the whole reason Commissars and Conscripts have been nerfed to Valhalla and back, I can't see any reason why they would suddenly allow this. Otherwise, you can still field all the components of platoons and, since 8th generally rewards you for taking more units rather than less, I don't see what the Tactical advantage would be?

[Imperator Deus]

Part of me wonders if the hysteria about Conscripts would have happened if platoons still existed. At the very least, it would have been a lot more expensive to field the Conscript spam lists - especially in Imperial Soup. Maybe Commissars wouldn't have been nerfed so hard too, if at all. I've always liked the platoon structure and I still choose to use it; although since Conscripts got nerfed into the ground, I probably won't bother with Platoon Commanders anymore, Company Commanders are a much better value now.

I used to run 2 Platoon Commanders, I didn't want to potentially waste orders on a unit that only had a 50% chance to carry them out, so I had dedicated Platoon Commanders for each Conscript squad. I always field Creed and Kell with a Company Commander equipped with the Laurels of Command which gives me 6+ orders between them, which I found was more than enough to take care of my 9 Infantry Squads.

It's kind of a shame, all these nerfs are shrinking the number of worthwhile units in the Codex. At the beginning of 8th they said that every unit would be viable, and for a while it felt like they were, but now it feels like they keep chipping away at the Guard's options. Hopefully they've finished now and move on to the next army and leave us alone for a while, lol!

[spafe]

Echoing the others above... what would it bring?

 

My 1000 point list has 3 'platoons'... I have red and yellow (a platoon commander & 2 inf squads each), then blue heavy platoon (senior officer & 4 heavy weapon squads). They are led by black command (senior officer & his command squad). So you can still do platoons, just you can make them a bit more flexible to how you want them to be. I really like this method of building my force, so not really sure why I'd want the old style platoons back lol.

[Imperator Deus]

The only reason I could think of to bring back platoons as an official thing would be to reduce the number of deployment drops. Currently I'm usually in the high 20s or low 30s for deployments. If platoons were back I could turn 15 of those into 2 drops. It would make going first a more reliable possibility, but I think that was intentional.

 

Back in 3rd, 4th or 5th edition, armies had a strategy rating that you would use to help determine who would get the first turn or whatnot in certain scenarios. Guard always had the worst rating to reflect the fact that it is not known for rapid deployments to a front, and that it is more difficult to coordinate an army that size.

 

If Alpha striking wasn't such a big deal this edition I wouldn't have any problem with always going second, but when you lose a quarter or more of your army to deep strikers and first turn charges before you even get a chance to play kind of sucks. I'm not sure if the solution is to limit alpha strikes or make it more likely for either player to get the first turn. Either one could work, but evening the chances of going first seems like a solution that mitigates the problem without unduly punishing anyone. Maybe the change to the first turn roll in CA will fix that issue. My group still uses the original rule.

[CoffeeGrunt]

To be fair, I find Alpha Striking really easy to nullify with Guard by simply not having many elite, juicy targets to pounce on. If their first strike lands too soft, they tend to be easy to draw into an attritive battle that Guard are born to win.

[micahwc]

I wish if you met certain platoon requirements you could deploy them as a platoon for only 1 choice. Say a platoon consists of 1 platoon commander, 2 infantry squads, and either a special weapon or heavy weapon squad. You bring all those and you can count it as 1 deployment when you put it on the table. The only other change would be to maybe allow the platoon commander 2 orders per turn, but only able to order squads in his platoon.

[FallenSoldiers]

Would a platoon have to take morale as a whole or squad by squad?

 

GW clearly doesn’t want guard having access to decent blob squads.

Edited December 1, 2017 by FallenSoldiers

[micahwc]

I would probably run the platoon rule similar to the squadron rule, in that they are one unit for placement, but act separately afterwards.

[Imperator Deus]

Would a platoon have to take morale as a whole or squad by squad?

 

GW clearly doesn’t want guard having access to decent blob squads.

The way it used to work, the platoon would be deployed at the same time, but otherwise all of the component units would function as separate units after deployment. You did have the option to merge your Infantry Squads into a single blob at deployment though. Sort of a reverse combat squad rule.

[Mitchverr]

The only platoons i want back are heavy weapon platoons of 1-3/5 squads as 1 slot, would be nice.

[Withershadow]

Yeah I was kind of bummed heavy weapon squads were stuck with 3 members.  I think 5 or 6 would have been nice. 

[Halfpint100]

Yeah I was kind of bummed heavy weapon squads were stuck with 3 members.  I think 5 or 6 would have been nice. 

 

Can you imagine orders for 6 lascannons? OUCH! or 6 mortars? or the anti-chaos strategem to re-roll hits and wounds 

[Chris521]

Without other changes, I don't think platoons would do us any good since the old advantages to the platoon are now gone. I'm assuming a platoon would take up a troops slot by itself like it used to?  Personally I really like being able to use HWS and SWS for my heavy and elite spots, not to mention having a 40 point troops choice.  Platoons would need to offer some significant bonus for me to be satisfied with them.

 

That being said, if GW had rules writers with a bit of creativity, they could make a platoon interesting.   Just spit balling some ideas here, maybe things like:

 

*Make the platoon leader much more powerful within his platoon. Such as more orders to his squads. 

 

*Along with that, change around the company commander so that he gives orders to platoons.  These would be a different set of orders than ones we know.

 

* leadership bonuses within the platoon ( perhaps based on the squad count?)

 

*Overhaul the vox system

Edited December 3, 2017 by Chris521

[Karack Blackstone]

For further edification and enlightenment, I do mean, to put it simply, port the 7th Ed. Guard Platoon directly into 8th, as an option.

 

So assuming I remember correctly, which I am not likely to do:

 

1 Platoon Command Squad

2 Infantry Squads, max of 5

0-4 Heavy Weapons Squads, 6 Guard each, 3 HW's each pair

0-3 Special Weapons Squads, 6 Guard each, 3 Special Ranged Weapons, 3 Guard with Lasguns

0-1 (?) Conscripts Squad(s?)

 

For 1 Troop choice.

 

For the sake of 8th Ed., maybe it would be a standalone detachment, that grants command points, and does not require a Company Command Squad, but has an option to include some sort of HQ. The minimum would be the same, just being 1 Elite (PCS) and 2 Troop (IS's). The further elements would fit into the detachment, per the above, or similar, restrictions, and allow the force maybe +1 Command Point overall.

 

This does not need to be a thing; it's just a thought, and this above might work. If a further option is to take an Infantry Platoon within other detachments, the benefits of the above would not apply, and the unit would count as a single Troop choice.

 

As Chris521 typed allow 1 extra Order within the Platoon from the Platoon Commander but only to the squads within the Platoon, and, Vox-Casters add maybe 6" to their Order range in the same Platoon when one Squad is passing Orders to another. The possible problem here is that it might need to cost a Command Point to do this, I would guess?

 

Still, food for thought. I continue to enjoy the course of this thread, and I am now glad I have let it continue. I was debating asking for it to be locked, however, at this point, I am glad the discussion and discourse has gotten this far. I do want to see where this goes further, from here. The ideas really help me out.

[Mitchverr]

Personally I really like being able to use HWS and SWS for my heavy and elite spots

 

You could always bring HWS as heavy choice couldnt you? They didnt need a platoon leader or anything, just 1-3/5 squads of heavy weapons IIRC per slot depending on if you were playing guard/elysian/death korps.