I can't find much purpose to bring Cato Sicarius anymore

[Tamiel]

At 132pts, Cato gets:
-His unique sword (User Str, AP-3, D3 Wounds, which become D3 mortal wounds if you roll a 6 to wound)
-2+ armor, 4++ invuln

-A plasma pistol

-The "tacticals within 6" fight first in melee unless the enemy charged" rule

-The ability to pick no relics. (Although his sword is kind of a relic).

 

For about 30 points less, you can have a Captain with:
-Relic Blade (which is Str+2, AP-3, D3 Wounds)

-3++ armor

-Plasma pistol

-Any relic you want  (you can get 3++ invuln and the chance to deny 1 psychic power per phase with the Sanctic Halo relic)

-Any warlord trait you want (Cato can only take the Ultra warlord trait, which is arguably the best one)

So basically, with Cato you're paying 30 points to get 1 better armor save (2+) but 1 worse invuln save (Cato has 4++ invuln, regular captain can get 3++ invuln and can deny 1 psychic power per turn if he takes sanctic halo for free).

The swords are also diffirent:
Cato's:  Str User, AP-3, D3 Wounds (D3 mortal wounds when you roll a 6+ to wound)

Reilc Blade: Str +2, AP-3, D3 Wounds

Is that really worth it? On top of not having a sanctic halo, no less.

For 121 points (still 11 less than Cato) you can even give a jump pack to the regular captain. Now he's moving 12".

What really bothers me is that Captains in 8th edition come in one of two flavours now. They are either aura-captains, with just a chainsword and boltpistol, or they are melee captains, who are often given a jump pack or bike.

With Cato, you're basically stuck in this awkward place where you don't have a jump pack, so you should be a walking aura giver, but you also have 132pts worth of stuff (including a unique sword). His unique ability for tactical marines is also really awkward. Buffing tacticals to ""always"" go first in melee seems so situational and weird that I don't even know how useful this thing can get, since it isn't actually always. It says they only get to fight first if the enemy didn't charge, and the enemy doesn't have a similar ability.

I just can't see any reason to bring this guy. His sword doing mortal wounds on a 6+ is the only good thing about him that I can think about.

You can get some use out of him by using that stratagem that makes a unit fight twice:
For 3CP, you get to have Cato fight again. So he attacks 8 times. He hits on 2s, rerolling 1s. He is very likely to get 7 hits, which means he is very likely to get at least one 6+ to wound.

But now you're paying 3CP. (Well, statistically 2 because you're an Ultramarine who returns CP on a 5+)


At this point, it just seems like we're trying way too hard to make this guy work.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Tamiel

[Brother Captain Ed]

No that about sums it up. I loved him in the index, but even then he wasn't amazing. Now...

 

Well, you said what there is to say. He's too expensive and too awkward. It's made doubly so by the fact that Intercessors and Scouts have totally replaced tactical squads in my list building. Even with the Primaris point breaks, I need that 30 points. So...sorry Cato.

 

I'm so let down by it. He's my favorite Ultramarine and I have a great kitbashed model for him, but he sits on the shelf.

[Kallas]

Just to clarify: the 'Tacticals fight first' aura means that they alternate between them and any other units that have charged or have a similar 'fight first' ability.

 

It doesn't actually matter if they have both charged and 'fight first', they still alternate.

 

So if multiple enemy units charge, then they need to pick carefully which unit will attack first, because you can either interrupt with CP or pick a Tactical Squad.

 

Also, if the Tactical Squad stays in combat on your turn they'll fight first and the opponent can't interrupt (as that Stratagem specifically calls out charging, not just fighting first).

 

It's much, and I agree that Sicarius is a bit crap, just wanted to clarify that ability as the OP's wording seemed a little confused about it.

 

On Sicarius, one of the things that bothers me is his (and every character's) Plasma Pistol - with the risk of self annihilation (even though it's unlikely with rerolling 1s, still a risk) why would you ever bother giving such a high value model a Plasma Pistol?

 

And yeah, if you're going to spend 130pts on a Captain, there's so much more to be gained from a regular Captain.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah Sicarius is a waste of page space in this Codex unfortunately. Whilst Mortal Wounds are handy, relying on 6s is too random to be worth an investment over a good old fashioned Relic Blade.

[phoenix01]

Well, he is lost in the Warp. Maybe for a reason?

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, he is lost in the Warp. Maybe for a reason?

 

Primaris Sicarius. He is just too perfect to remain resin for much longer :D

[Daigo Cannon]

I agree on the plasma on characters, on my last games I have never used the overcharged just by the mere possibility to loose my captain and his aura by rolling 1.

I think he would be in a better position if Drops pods were viable, rolling with two full tactical(Cato,9 and 10) units in an alpha will be worth, but again not viable due to drop pod prices.

[jonjacob]

I found might of the ancients works well on him when there is a near by lieutenant. The extra attack; Strength; toughness; re-rolls 1's for hits and wound can really help.

 

Tactical squad with storm raven has worked for me but there are much better units for this.

 

Tactical drop pod support would be good but it not the points I hate, It the limitation of being outside of 9. No additional movement and must be within 3 of the pod can really stifle battle lines. Especally when you add consider you must be outside of 9 for all enemy models. I'd be happy to pay 100 pts if it's deployment was easier.

[Tamiel]

Just to clarify: the 'Tacticals fight first' aura means that they alternate between them and any other units that have charged or have a similar 'fight first' ability.

 

It doesn't actually matter if they have both charged and 'fight first', they still alternate.

 

So if multiple enemy units charge, then they need to pick carefully which unit will attack first, because you can either interrupt with CP or pick a Tactical Squad.

 

Also, if the Tactical Squad stays in combat on your turn they'll fight first and the opponent can't interrupt (as that Stratagem specifically calls out charging, not just fighting first).

 

It's much, and I agree that Sicarius is a bit crap, just wanted to clarify that ability as the OP's wording seemed a little confused about it.

 

On Sicarius, one of the things that bothers me is his (and every character's) Plasma Pistol - with the risk of self annihilation (even though it's unlikely with rerolling 1s, still a risk) why would you ever bother giving such a high value model a Plasma Pistol?

 

And yeah, if you're going to spend 130pts on a Captain, there's so much more to be gained from a regular Captain.

I already know all of this. You get to alternate, but if they charged you, all of their charged units go first, then they start alternating (where they get first pick). In most situations, this means that the squad that charged your tacticals can still go first. 

 

As for your other point (if tacticals get to stay in melee, they always get to go first). This is such a rare case. It isn't often that I would leave my tacticals in melee, since their special weapons (and the Ultramarine ability to fall back and shoot) lends them much better to shooting. If there's a melee enemy in my lines, I'd rather just fall back and light 'em up with my army, as opposed to leaving my tacs in melee.  Likewise, if I'm the one who charged (let's say I charged guard or tau), it's unlikely that they're going to stay in melee with me.

 

The special ability Cato gets is really useless. In order to get any benefit from it, you need to have so many stars lined up. When do you ever see Tacticals stay in melee (especially Ultramarines ones?). When do you ever see a situation where someone who charged you would still not go first, even when they are alternating? And finally, when do you ever see Tacticals fighting first being worth anything? 

 

It's so situational that I can't even call it situational. You need everything to go right for this ability to even come into effect, and when it does... a tac squad gets to go first. Whoo hoo.

 

 

This ability is just not good.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Tamiel

[beefeb]

I would suggest he is lost in the warp as a precursor to them doing something significant with the character.  He is a prime candidate to be one of the first of the older style marines to go through the 'primaris' process with implantation of the extra organs and into a tank to develop the additional stature after being recovered horribly mutilated or similar when he finally makes it back to RG's side.

 

I hope they do start to update the old characters, upgrading them to primaris class.  They have said in the lore it can happen, and the latest feeds from the developers on twitch indicate that there is much more coming with the primaris marines...more unit types etc etc.

[Captain Idaho]

Hopefully the survey would change those plans. I can't believe a majority of people want their Space Marines replaced by Primaris.

 

I'm not made of money.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hopefully the survey would change those plans. I can't believe a majority of people want their Space Marines replaced by Primaris.

 

I'm not made of money.

Even if you were, would you give up part of yourself for more plastics? :P

[Captain Idaho]

Depends if it grew back.

 

If it did, I wouldn't be as concerned with the heavy hit my ebay account did this week for my hobby purchases...

[GreyCrow]

Cato is pretty good at supporting Tactical Squads in their fights versus infantry. More than a regular Captain.

 

For his price, you save on the 2 CP stratagem to fight first. Multiple units for free, using your CP elsewhere.

(I believe he keeps his Reroll To Hit of 1 aura as well ?).

 

His sword is not there to kill High T multi wounds like a Relic Blade, but to secure the fight versus T3-T4 infantry opponents. He will kill a couple of Terminators as well, between his Plasma and his sword.

Mortal Wounds spilling over, you have a chance to spill wounds over and chop multiple heads with one swing.

 

2+/4++ means that he is more effective than a regular captain with a 3+ versus normal infantry with no AP. He is not a character hunter nor a beatstick.

 

He is really good in a list where you send your Tacticals frontline to deal with other infantry basically.

 

Might not be your cup of tea but not crap at all!

[The Emperor's Champion]

Sicarius has never really been particularly good.

Great character design, useless rules.

That said, Sicarius counts as a Captain.
He has the <Captain> keyword and "Captain" is in his name.
TECHNICALLY there doesn't seem to be anything stopping you from upgrading him to Chapter Master (aside from that it's a stupid idea).
He can't have Relics because there's specifically a rule saying named Characters can't have them, but no such thing is mention about application of Stratagems....

Just a weird thing I noticed the other day.

Edited December 11, 2017 by The Emperor's Champion

[UnkyHamHam]

I've been thinking of doing exactly that. Giving him the Chapter Master upgrade. Purely counts as, as I don't play Ultras, just use the tactics. But when you have access to both Calgar and Guilliman why would you spend so many CPs polishing a turd? You could take a superior character and get 2/3 CPs instead.

[Wargamer]

You're not meant to want to bring him - he was Matt Ward's author insert. Now that Ward is gone, his personal shipping fodder has been reined back to where he should be.

[Frater Cornelius]

You're not meant to want to bring him - he was Matt Ward's author insert. Now that Ward is gone, his personal shipping fodder has been reined back to where he should be.

On the contrary. Now that he is free of Ward’s reign, there is so much GW can do with him.

[GreyCrow]

Leave Cato alone !

 

There are so many options to make your own Captain McDreamy! Let him be who Matt Ward designed him to be and create your own guy ! :D

[Tamiel]

Cato was designed to be your iconic, stereotypical Space Marine Captain.

 

He does not specialize in infiltration like Lias Issadon, or jump packs like Shrike (who is now a C.M. admittedly). He's not on a bike, doesn't wear terminator armor, or anything unusual. Instead, Cato is supposed to represent an old and forgotten concept: A captain, on foot, leading the charge with his power sword raised.

 

You know, those guys read about in the books but never see on the tabletop anymore.

Yes, in the age of Cataphractii terminator captains, jump pack captains, and bike captains being the bread-and-butter selection for so many armies, Cato was meant to be your "skilled swordsman captain on foot who leads his men"... just like the captains in so many books.

8th edition in general pushes you towards one of two extremes: The dirt-poor captain with a chainsword who is only there for rerolls, or the captain who is either on a bike or on a jump pack carrying some thunder hammer. I don't have a problem with either of these archetypes. If they're your thing, they're your thing. But somewhere along the way, this guy

 

and this guy
 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/8/86/SMCap.jpg/240px-SMCap.jpg

 

and this guy

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/a/a9/Space_Marine_Captain.JPG/247px-Space_Marine_Captain.JPG

And so many other captains just got lost. Either that, or they're all on bikes/jump packs now.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Tamiel

[Seahawk]

It happened when the last few editions made power swords AP-derp instead of being useful. Players turned to every other option because they were all better, and Sicarius has sat on the sidelines since then.

[Ishagu]

Imo Cato should be 100 points flat.

 

He has a very specific boost to Tactical marines that whilst potentially useful isn't going to alter strategy or the way you play.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Hi name is really cool and I love that helmet .

[FlamingDeth]

He can be an objective marker!