Competitive BA list discussion *Post-Codex*

[Karhedron]

That said I am quite disappointed that both new Codex batreps that I saw so far didn’t end so well for Blood Angels.

I think the Blood Angels will shape up to be something of a finesse army. Getting the right balance of fire support and assault elements and learning to co-ordinate your assault elements properly (along with the vexing issue of supporting characters) will take some skill and practice.

[tkni]

Generally I hear good things about the Scorpius, Rapier Carriages and the Sicaran, which would help with our firebase. Fireraptors are apparently pretty mean, as is a Leviathan. Anything I left out?

 

A Deredeo can be pricey for its damage output, but the 5++ aura from an atomantic pavaise and the strategem that gives it the captain's re-roll aura are also very complimentary to a firebase.

[Remtek]

What an excellent thread and how long we‘ve waited for it!

 

That said I am quite disappointed that both new Codex batreps that I saw so far didn’t end so well for Blood Angels.

 

Anyhow, as I am a sucker for Forgeworld I wonder what units would complement our forces well.

 

I see the Chaplain Dread mentioned several times, but aren’t super impressed by it on paper.

 

Generally I hear good things about the Scorpius, Rapier Carriages and the Sicaran, which would help with our firebase. Fireraptors are apparently pretty mean, as is a Leviathan. Anything I left out?

 

It's the character rule that makes him really good, for example if you go pure infantry with libby/chaplain dreads all your 'veichles' will be protected from ranged anti tank. A bit gimicky, but can be effective.  He is pricy though, so if your going veichle heavy he is a bit pointless. 

[Pendent]

The few batreps I've seen with the new codex so far all featured the player either being new or else making some major mistakes. I think we're going to be a very strong faction but like  Karhedronuk says there will be an element of finesse to our tactics that you probably won't see as much from a faction like guard that depends more on expendable bodies and massive firepower.

[Blackcadian]

Hmmmmm finesse sounds good indeed.

 

While shooting has been the more competitive way to go for as long as I can remember (which does make sense in a sci-fi game), I’ve found that using the other game phases too makes for a lot more interesting and enjoyable gaming experience.

 

I guess I’m hestitant to get excited due to the brutal beat downs I have received after picking up BA at the tail end of 7th.

[Actionmike]

Looking forward to my first game with the new rules at the weekend. To long have I lived in fear of my mates turn one swarmlord, lets see how he likes turn one now :p

[Dont-Be-Haten]

This post has kinda exploded so I haven’t read through all of it.

 

How “good” would a Librarian be as your Warlord? I would give him a Force Sword, the +1 damage trait, Quickening and Wing of Sanguinious powers, then the Jump Pack relic. He would Deep Strike with a Sanguinary guard escort, cast his powers get within 2” of his target, charge then use the 3d6 charge distance strategem on the Sanguinary guard.

This is a gambit to me. Because you are first relying on the fact that the IC has to go in first. If you assault the wrong thing your opponent will burn a command point and put all of his remaining attacks on the character. If unit is going to get crunched anyway.

 

Being forced to charge the shortest possible distance to get into combat can really put a hamper on this, so you need to maximize your position. Otherwise that's a waste of CPs and a charge if the unit you are attempting to assault isn't a priority target. And those usually don't get hit until turn 3+ depending on how good the general is across the board.

 

inexperienced players will be decimated by this, but I usually work off the information that competitive builds usually have anti alpha strike lists and betastrike counters. Or certain units Re protecting a counter charge IC which will heroic intervention.

 

Just be mindful of that.

 

On thst note, I really feel like our list shouldn't be focused on the alpha strike, I think it should be used as a counter assault, or beta strike. Being able to force your opponent's set up because you have the capability to manipulate what you want them to do. You have 3 turns to deepstrike down, that's plenty of time to have 2-3 counter measures in place if your initial plans backfire/need to be adjusted.

 

In 5th I had a lot of success with DoA because VVs always had the threat of charging out of deepstrike, the same would be said about units thst could assault from the flanks and null deploy lists.

 

I personally have learned a melee centric alpha strike is a feast or famine tactic in this edition. You have to go all in with it and it has a lot of downside to it. In my personal experiences the downside outweighs the uptick and as such should be avoided.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

Being a finesse army isn't really a big change for us in the grand scheme of things- the difference now is with the tools we now have, we're competing on the same level or a bit better than other SM armies.

[MeltaRange]

 

What an excellent thread and how long we‘ve waited for it!

 

That said I am quite disappointed that both new Codex batreps that I saw so far didn’t end so well for Blood Angels.

 

Anyhow, as I am a sucker for Forgeworld I wonder what units would complement our forces well.

 

I see the Chaplain Dread mentioned several times, but aren’t super impressed by it on paper.

 

Generally I hear good things about the Scorpius, Rapier Carriages and the Sicaran, which would help with our firebase. Fireraptors are apparently pretty mean, as is a Leviathan. Anything I left out?

 

It's the character rule that makes him really good, for example if you go pure infantry with libby/chaplain dreads all your 'veichles' will be protected from ranged anti tank. A bit gimicky, but can be effective.  He is pricy though, so if your going veichle heavy he is a bit pointless. 

 

 

Chaplain Dread is basically one of the most bad ace beat stick characters in the game.   Librarian Dreads being so good in the Codex combined with the ability to just take a Priest sort of downgrades the Chaplain Dread for BA, but the 5++/6+++ and ability to bring a Twin Las @ BS2+ is really good too.  I really like the Chappy as the Warlord with Speed of the Primarch or Artisan of War.

 

Chaplain Dread + Primaris Lt in a big blob of Infantry synergizes extremely well.  Remtek is absolutely correct though don't take him if you're taking a lot of other vehicles since marginalizes the fact he can hide.  You could definitely consider some things like Whirlwinds that can shoot while being parked out of LOS, or absolute beasts like the Typhon to go with it.

[CCE1981]

 

This post has kinda exploded so I haven’t read through all of it.

 

How “good” would a Librarian be as your Warlord? I would give him a Force Sword, the +1 damage trait, Quickening and Wing of Sanguinious powers, then the Jump Pack relic. He would Deep Strike with a Sanguinary guard escort, cast his powers get within 2” of his target, charge then use the 3d6 charge distance strategem on the Sanguinary guard.

This is a gambit to me. Because you are first relying on the fact that the IC has to go in first. If you assault the wrong thing your opponent will burn a command point and put all of his remaining attacks on the character. If unit is going to get crunched anyway.

 

Being forced to charge the shortest possible distance to get into combat can really put a hamper on this, so you need to maximize your position. Otherwise that's a waste of CPs and a charge if the unit you are attempting to assault isn't a priority target. And those usually don't get hit until turn 3+ depending on how good the general is across the board.

 

inexperienced players will be decimated by this, but I usually work off the information that competitive builds usually have anti alpha strike lists and betastrike counters. Or certain units Re protecting a counter charge IC which will heroic intervention.

 

Just be mindful of that.

 

On thst note, I really feel like our list shouldn't be focused on the alpha strike, I think it should be used as a counter assault, or beta strike. Being able to force your opponent's set up because you have the capability to manipulate what you want them to do. You have 3 turns to deepstrike down, that's plenty of time to have 2-3 counter measures in place if your initial plans backfire/need to be adjusted.

 

In 5th I had a lot of success with DoA because VVs always had the threat of charging out of deepstrike, the same would be said about units thst could assault from the flanks and null deploy lists.

 

I personally have learned a melee centric alpha strike is a feast or famine tactic in this edition. You have to go all in with it and it has a lot of downside to it. In my personal experiences the downside outweighs the uptick and as such should be avoided.

With a full squad of Sanguinary Guard that should be a little shy of 500 pts and 2 CPs. There are plenty of other points left for other options to sand away the front line.

[Djangomatic82]

What are peoples opinion on Hammernators paired with their Ancient and the relic banner? I really would like to build up a Sanguinary force with their ancient, but the Termies combo of 2+/3++/5++ and massive damage output is really tempting. The only downside i'm seeing is their lack of mobility and shooting.  From the few post codex video's i've seen, Sanguinary Guard with the banner can really tank wounds, so the Termies additional 3++ seems like it will make a force of them a serious threat that will require significant effort on the opponent's part to deal with.

[Charlo]

They're a quality pairing to a Death Company Alpha-strike as a second wave, forcing your opponent to split shooting.

 

I'd prefer Cataphractii though I think just for using the Archangels strat and getting the chance of loads of re-rolled combi-bolters and then re-rolls to hit and wound if you make that 9" charge.

 

If you pop a priest with a JP down too you might get a magical situation of keeping the S Buffs and heals etc.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Charlo

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

Generally I hear good things about the Scorpius, Rapier Carriages and the Sicaran, which would help with our firebase. Fireraptors are apparently pretty mean, as is a Leviathan. Anything I left out?

 

A Deredeo can be pricey for its damage output, but the 5++ aura from an atomantic pavaise and the strategem that gives it the captain's re-roll aura are also very complimentary to a firebase.

 

 

The Deredeo is a beast. I've run him several times and he does work - then immediately draws soo much fire. I didn't realize though that the Automantic Pavaise is instead of the missle pod thing (which my model is built with) and I'd been cheating for several games using both before I discovered hah. Still think I'd rather have the missle pod because either everything is shooting just at the dreadnought or he's dead in my games so far.

[Aothaine]

What are peoples opinion on Hammernators paired with their Ancient and the relic banner? I really would like to build up a Sanguinary force with their ancient, but the Termies combo of 2+/3++/5++ and massive damage output is really tempting. The only downside i'm seeing is their lack of mobility and shooting.  From the few post codex video's i've seen, Sanguinary Guard with the banner can really tank wounds, so the Termies additional 3++ seems like it will make a force of them a serious threat that will require significant effort on the opponent's part to deal with.

 

 

you don't need them all TH+SS just like 5-6 of them. That allows you to grab two assault cannon termies and 2-3 storm bolter & other weapon termies. Use the priest to bring back and heal the stormshields. ^_^

[Zynk Kaladin]

Here's my take getting Dante to shine in a 2k point competitive list.  It can be very aggressive mid-game (hey... Blood Angels) while still giving options for different strategies.  It's not very CP heavy (Dante should give +1 CP... bad GW...), but I don't plan to use many CPs anyway.

 

Early Game:

 

Dante, the tacticals, razorbacks, the Priest, and death company all start on the board.  At this point I have many options: bubble wrapping with DC if needed, using Forlorn Fury to move the DC up, exploiting an enemy mistake by alpha striking, etc.  First turn Dante gives hit rerolls to the lascannon tacs and twin-lascannon razors (making better use of those HKMs with rerolls) and the DC and Priest move up towards the enemy.  I also like having Dante on the board early to deter or counter charge any alpha strikes. 

 

Mid Game: 

 

Second or third turn the assault marines and drop pod with devastators and Mephiston enter.  Dante then uses Upon Wings of Fire to support this late deep strike giving crucial rerolls to hit to the devastator multimeltas and assault marine special weapons.  When Mephiston exits the pod he uses Wings of Sanguinius on himself to get charging and Unleash Rage on the DC if they're close enough.  I also have the option of plopping the pod w/ Meph and devs right in the midfield or wherever else I need a no-go zone while Dante at a whim can support the long range firebase or the midfield as needed.  The assault marines fill in the gaps while the DC do what every good DC unit does.

 

Late Game:

 

Late game objective grabbing might be a little tough if I play very aggressive, but I'll have 1 CP left for UWoF and at least 1 of the tactical should have survived in their razorback bunkers.  If I play conservatively I don't think this list will have problems claiming objectives.

 

Battalion

 

HQ - Dante

HQ - Mephiston

 

TR - 5 Tacticals (lascannon)

TR - 5 Tacticals (lascannon)

TR - 5 Tacticals (lascannon)

 

HS - 9 Devastators (combi-plasma, 3 multimeltas, heavy bolter, cherub)

 

DT - Razorback (twin-lascannon, hunter-killer)

DT - Razorback (twin-lascannon, hunter-killer)

DT - Razorback (twin-lascannon, hunter-killer)

DT - Drop Pod (storm bolter)

 

Outrider

 

HQ - Priest (jump pack, power sword)

 

EL - 15 Death Co (jump packs, 4 power swords)

 

FA - Assault Marines (jump packs, 2 plasmaguns)

FA - Assault Marines (jump packs, 2 plasmaguns)

FA - Assault Marines (jump packs, 2 meltaguns)

 

2000 points, 4 CP

 

Thoughts?

[Cronhour]

 

Here's my take getting Dante to shine in a 2k point competitive list.  It can be very aggressive mid-game (hey... Blood Angels) while still giving options for different strategies.  It's not very CP heavy (Dante should give +1 CP... bad GW...), but I don't plan to use many CPs anyway.

 

Early Game:

 

Dante, the tacticals, razorbacks, the Priest, and death company all start on the board.  At this point I have many options: bubble wrapping with DC if needed, using Forlorn Fury to move the DC up, exploiting an enemy mistake by alpha striking, etc.  First turn Dante gives hit rerolls to the lascannon tacs and twin-lascannon razors (making better use of those HKMs with rerolls) and the DC and Priest move up towards the enemy.  I also like having Dante on the board early to deter or counter charge any alpha strikes. 

 

Mid Game: 

 

Second or third turn the assault marines and drop pod with devastators and Mephiston enter.  Dante then uses Upon Wings of Fire to support this late deep strike giving crucial rerolls to hit to the devastator multimeltas and assault marine special weapons.  When Mephiston exits the pod he uses Wings of Sanguinius on himself to get charging and Unleash Rage on the DC if they're close enough.  I also have the option of plopping the pod w/ Meph and devs right in the midfield or wherever else I need a no-go zone while Dante at a whim can support the long range firebase or the midfield as needed.  The assault marines fill in the gaps while the DC do what every good DC unit does.

 

Late Game:

 

Late game objective grabbing might be a little tough if I play very aggressive, but I'll have 1 CP left for UWoF and at least 1 of the tactical should have survived in their razorback bunkers.  If I play conservatively I don't think this list will have problems claiming objectives.

 

Battalion

 

HQ - Dante

HQ - Mephiston

 

TR - 5 Tacticals (lascannon)

TR - 5 Tacticals (lascannon)

TR - 5 Tacticals (lascannon)

 

HS - 9 Devastators (combi-plasma, 3 multimeltas, heavy bolter, cherub)

 

DT - Razorback (twin-lascannon, hunter-killer)

DT - Razorback (twin-lascannon, hunter-killer)

DT - Razorback (twin-lascannon, hunter-killer)

DT - Drop Pod (storm bolter)

 

Outrider

 

HQ - Priest (jump pack, power sword)

 

EL - 15 Death Co (jump packs, 4 power swords)

 

FA - Assault Marines (jump packs, 2 plasmaguns)

FA - Assault Marines (jump packs, 2 plasmaguns)

FA - Assault Marines (jump packs, 2 meltaguns)

 

2000 points, 4 CP

 

Thoughts?

 

 did you forget the 3CP for being battleforged? so it's 7Cp right? unless I'm missing something....

[MeltaRange]

I do think that Dante is probably better utilized as a buffer for shooty units than melee DS.  I'm not so certain though that 300+ points for that Devastator drop pod is worth it.  Seems like a lot just for 3 melta-range shots.  

[Aothaine]

I do think that Dante is probably better utilized as a buffer for shooty units than melee DS.  I'm not so certain though that 300+ points for that Devastator drop pod is worth it.  Seems like a lot just for 3 melta-range shots.  

 

I agree completely. For a DS assault units you want a Chaplain. Re-roll every miss. 

[Karhedron]

I do think that Dante is probably better utilized as a buffer for shooty units than melee DS.  I'm not so certain though that 300+ points for that Devastator drop pod is worth it.  Seems like a lot just for 3 melta-range shots.

Yup, 3 melta shots won't set the world on fire. Now replace them and the HB with 4 Grav Cannons and you have a unit that can can shred infantry better than HBs and destroy tanks better than lascannons. The downside is the shorter range but if you are putting them in a pod and dropping Dante next to them to improve their aim, they will shred whatever you point them at.

[MeltaRange]

I do like Grav Cannons in pods a lot, but I still don't see a reason to use that unit over say a 7 man SG or VV w/ LCs - both of which are apt to do more damage and synergize better with the army.

[Karhedron]

I do like Grav Cannons in pods a lot, but I still don't see a reason to use that unit over say a 7 man SG or VV w/ LCs - both of which are apt to do more damage and synergize better with the army.

Because every turn those units are not in CC they are not making their points back and are vulnerable to shooting. The Dev squad can be plopped down in convenient cover, hopefully within 24" of several juicy targets. It can attack without being worried about screening units etc and doesn't need to worry about making 9" charges on the drop. They have enough firepower to drop a Dread in a single volley or seriously maul larger vehicles.

 

I am not saying they are better than SG or VV but looking through the codex, I think that even with all our tricks and stratagems, we will struggle to deliver our elite melee units where they need to be without some decent supporting fire. Grav Devs are not the only option but they are certainly good on paper and make a great unit for Dante to buff on the turn he drops before jumping forward to buff something else.

 

You need your fire support to clear landing zones of chaff for your melee units to get to the juicy stuff.

[Brother Talarian]

 

I do think that Dante is probably better utilized as a buffer for shooty units than melee DS. I'm not so certain though that 300+ points for that Devastator drop pod is worth it. Seems like a lot just for 3 melta-range shots.

Yup, 3 melta shots won't set the world on fire. Now replace them and the HB with 4 Grav Cannons and you have a unit that can can shred infantry better than HBs and destroy tanks better than lascannons. The downside is the shorter range but if you are putting them in a pod and dropping Dante next to them to improve their aim, they will shred whatever you point them at.

Care to elaborate how GC are better than LC at taking out larger targets? They have 4 shots each, and most vehicles have a save of 3+, but once they land they're hitting on 4s, then need to wound, likely a 5+ and then the opponent (probably) gets a 6+ save. You can then do D3 dmg. Maybe my math is wrong but they don't seem to do much better than lascannons.

 

To clear infantry and chaff on the other hand, I totally agree.

[The Unseen]

 

 

I do think that Dante is probably better utilized as a buffer for shooty units than melee DS. I'm not so certain though that 300+ points for that Devastator drop pod is worth it. Seems like a lot just for 3 melta-range shots.

Yup, 3 melta shots won't set the world on fire. Now replace them and the HB with 4 Grav Cannons and you have a unit that can can shred infantry better than HBs and destroy tanks better than lascannons. The downside is the shorter range but if you are putting them in a pod and dropping Dante next to them to improve their aim, they will shred whatever you point them at.

Care to elaborate how GC are better than LC at taking out larger targets? They have 4 shots each, and most vehicles have a save of 3+, but once they land they're hitting on 4s, then need to wound, likely a 5+ and then the opponent (probably) gets a 6+ save. You can then do D3 dmg. Maybe my math is wrong but they don't seem to do much better than lascannons.

 

To clear infantry and chaff on the other hand, I totally agree.

Simple

On the turn they move, an unbuffed grav cannon will do around 1.1 wounds to a rhino on average, a Las will do 1.3 if it doesn't move.

But, in a turn in which the GC gets to remain stationary, it does 1.5 wounds.

And the GC has a much more even distribution, as it's likely going to cause some damage whether it moved or not, whereas the lascannon is likely going to do either a lot of damage, or none with its 1 shot.

So en masse, with the lascannons you hope to get lucky and land those massive 5 or 6 damage hits, with GC, you've got averages in your favor, as your just rolling a lot of middling damage shots.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

I do think that Dante is probably better utilized as a buffer for shooty units than melee DS. I'm not so certain though that 300+ points for that Devastator drop pod is worth it. Seems like a lot just for 3 melta-range shots.

Yup, 3 melta shots won't set the world on fire. Now replace them and the HB with 4 Grav Cannons and you have a unit that can can shred infantry better than HBs and destroy tanks better than lascannons. The downside is the shorter range but if you are putting them in a pod and dropping Dante next to them to improve their aim, they will shred whatever you point them at.

Care to elaborate how GC are better than LC at taking out larger targets? They have 4 shots each, and most vehicles have a save of 3+, but once they land they're hitting on 4s, then need to wound, likely a 5+ and then the opponent (probably) gets a 6+ save. You can then do D3 dmg. Maybe my math is wrong but they don't seem to do much better than lascannons.

 

To clear infantry and chaff on the other hand, I totally agree.

Simple

On the turn they move, an unbuffed grav cannon will do around 1.1 wounds to a rhino on average, a Las will do 1.3 if it doesn't move.

But, in a turn in which the GC gets to remain stationary, it does 1.5 wounds.

And the GC has a much more even distribution, as it's likely going to cause some damage whether it moved or not, whereas the lascannon is likely going to do either a lot of damage, or none with its 1 shot.

So en masse, with the lascannons you hope to get lucky and land those massive 5 or 6 damage hits, with GC, you've got averages in your favor, as your just rolling a lot of middling damage shots.

 

The difference is really minor tho with the difference that Lascannon Devs can stay back with everything that comes to it (a bit safer, can camp backline objectives, can stay in cover most likely) and the Grav Devs needing to get closer which means they are more likely to get killed.

I mean even if they hadn't such different ranges their damage output would still be extremely close to eachother on average. About 4.44 damage after moving/5.93 damage without moving vs 5.19 damage. In that regard both are about as viable. The more average damage roll curve of the Grav is easily offset by having to wound stuff on 5+ instead of 3+.

 

Then the next interesting thing I guess is the point per damage ratio.

For Grav Devs it's 39.825/29.869 points per damage and for the Lascannon Devs it's 31.821 points per damage. Once you add a Drop Pod to the Grav Devs they lose the competition easily in that regard.

 

 

tl;dr

both, Grav Cannons as well as Lascannons, are very similar to each other. Which one should take is mostly up to personal taste and playstyle imo. Grav Cannons are bit more of an allrounder but can easily wiff the to-wound roll against tanks and have to put themselves into more danger to do their job while Lascannons only really have one jo, can wiff their damage roll there but can stay back in safety easily.

[Karhedron]

Then the next interesting thing I guess is the point per damage ratio.

For Grav Devs it's 39.825/29.869 points per damage and for the Lascannon Devs it's 31.821 points per damage. Once you add a Drop Pod to the Grav Devs they lose the competition easily in that regard.

That is against vehicles. Work out the Grav Cannons' points efficiency vs MEQ or other single wound infantry and they are about 3 times better than lascannons. GCs can mulch infantry and MEQs far better than LCs for only marginally more points. Great flexibility.