Competitive BA list discussion *Post-Codex*

[Pendent]

 

Then the next interesting thing I guess is the point per damage ratio.

For Grav Devs it's 39.825/29.869 points per damage and for the Lascannon Devs it's 31.821 points per damage. Once you add a Drop Pod to the Grav Devs they lose the competition easily in that regard.

That is against vehicles. Work out the Grav Cannons' points efficiency vs MEQ or other single wound infantry and they are about 3 times better than lascannons. GCs can mulch infantry and MEQs far better than LCs for only marginally more points. Great flexibility.

 

But then there's that whole range thing where you have to put them in danger if you want to fire.

 

It's almost like these two weapons are... balanced? 

[Zynk Kaladin]

 

 did you forget the 3CP for being battleforged? so it's 7Cp right? unless I'm missing something....

 

Oh you're right.  I forgot battleforged lists start with 3 cps so my list has 7 cps to utilize.  Very nice.

 

I do think that Dante is probably better utilized as a buffer for shooty units than melee DS.  I'm not so certain though that 300+ points for that Devastator drop pod is worth it.  Seems like a lot just for 3 melta-range shots.  

 

I figure for 35 points more than a rhino the ability to get 4 heavy weapons with rerolls to hit wherever and whenever I need it is worth it.  Plus it transports Mephiston directly to front first turn if necessary or I could choose to keep him on foot depending on the enemy's list.  For me it's worth 35 points more to have this flexibility.

 

Yup, 3 melta shots won't set the world on fire. Now replace them and the HB with 4 Grav Cannons and you have a unit that can can shred infantry better than HBs and destroy tanks better than lascannons. The downside is the shorter range but if you are putting them in a pod and dropping Dante next to them to improve their aim, they will shred whatever you point them at.

 

Hmm, at first I though GCs weren't worth it but you make a good case they're a more flexibly option.  I didn't realize averaged around a lascannon in terms of damage and can deal with infantry just as well.  Thanks for the tip.

[Panzer]

 

Then the next interesting thing I guess is the point per damage ratio.For Grav Devs it's 39.825/29.869 points per damage and for the Lascannon Devs it's 31.821 points per damage. Once you add a Drop Pod to the Grav Devs they lose the competition easily in that regard.

That is against vehicles. Work out the Grav Cannons' points efficiency vs MEQ or other single wound infantry and they are about 3 times better than lascannons. GCs can mulch infantry and MEQs far better than LCs for only marginally more points. Great flexibility.

Well I did say they are allrounder while Lascannons are there for only one job.

[Blackcadian]

Hmmmm sticking Meph into a drop pod with another squad? That’s a really good idea! (Still not used to units being able to share transports).

 

I dropped him from my lists because I didn’t know how to get him to the front lines - now I can bring him back! (The psychic power I already need for the Libby Dread)

[Karhedron]

Yes, Drop Pods are still overpriced, even after the discount in our Codex and CA but I can see the value in 1 to get beatstick characters into position.

[Charlo]

 

Yes, Drop Pods are still overpriced, even after the discount in our Codex and CA but I can see the value in 1 to get beatstick characters into position.

 

I think it could work as part of an overall flank-crush strategy...

 

DC + Lemartes

Terminators + Ancient with Banner of Sacrifice (defensive)/ SG + Ancient with Banner (offensive)

Drop pod with Mephiston + Shooty unit of choice (Sternguard? Company Vets?

 

Can either come in turn 1 to Alpha or turn 2 to try and clear some enemy chaff first.

 

Then it's just a matter of the following:

• Arrive in the move phase 9.01" from your target(s)
• Cast Wings on Mephiston and laugh maniacally as he leapfrogs any chaff ready to charge something big and nasty with his S10 AP-3 sword of crushing doom + cast whatever buffs you see fit on himself/ others (shied for defense, rage for offence)
• Everything opens up with Bolters/ Storm Bolters/ Angelus Bolters/ Plasma Pistols/ Combi-Weapons to clear chaff/ deal initial damage if it's a big target. If you chose TDA you could risk 2CP on the Archangels strat for re-rolls but it's a lot of resources for potentially not much gain.
• Now the big part, charging. You have a few options here... You can go big risk big baller and go for a DC 2D6 re-roll charge with Lemartes to get them in with the re-roll alone and use Descent of angels on the SG (if you took them) or you go super safe and use Descent on the DC for a 3D6 charge (in which case i'd make the DC a little more top heavy on squad members and equipment).

You now have Mephiston causing havoc, DC in combat (with maybe Lemartes) crushing some poor enemy unit in dice while either: 

• a block of Terminators and Sternguard have set up a meaty firebase protected by a FNP banner
• SG are also carving through things with power swords and fists with plenty of re-rolls

 

To back this up i'd have a second squad of meaty DC move up using forlorn fury in the direction you'd like to focus your forces while a Storm Raven carries a threatening unit while it provides fire support. Something like Scouts/ Intercessors/ Allied Guard can provide the objective holding, maybe supported by a captain/ lieutenant for re-rolls... I actually quite like the idea of Primaris being the back-line while the now ravaged survivors of Baals destruction show them how it's really done ;)

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

So ive been thinking, as i debate whether or not to spend money on this codex, whether forlorn hope could useful as a bait to get footslogging DC up the table and make your opponent move his army to try and counter them or if being up 7-12" from deployment and not inside a vehicle means they are dead without a purpose?

[Aothaine]

 

What are peoples opinion on Hammernators paired with their Ancient and the relic banner? I really would like to build up a Sanguinary force with their ancient, but the Termies combo of 2+/3++/5++ and massive damage output is really tempting. The only downside i'm seeing is their lack of mobility and shooting.  From the few post codex video's i've seen, Sanguinary Guard with the banner can really tank wounds, so the Termies additional 3++ seems like it will make a force of them a serious threat that will require significant effort on the opponent's part to deal with.

 

 

you don't need them all TH+SS just like 5-6 of them. That allows you to grab two assault cannon termies and 2-3 storm bolter & other weapon termies. Use the priest to bring back and heal the stormshields.

 

 

Now that I mention this it looks like terminators, according to the index, cannot have storm shields and TH. Only the assault variety can. So you'll have to run full assault with them making an hammer required. 

 

So in order to pull this off you have your 15 man DC squad race across the board and hopefully assault turn one then drop in the terminators as the anvil for the DC to crash into on the turn they will charge. But in order to make sure this works correctly you will want at least two but more likely three 15 man DC units I'd run them 12 with bolter & chainsword and 3 with TH or bolter & powerfist.  Then run the assault terminator squad with 6-7 SS+TH and 3-4 dual power claws to give them a bit of a punch in case they get swamped with chaff. Drop in the Terminator ancient with the 5++ banner with them. 

[Fahlnor]

Edited to remove unfair lambasting! Edited December 8, 2017 by Fahlnor

[TheHarrower]

I genuinely don't understand what you guys were expecting (or wanting) that would have made such a vast difference to your experience of this Codex.

 

You can't change a book or a thread, by it's cover. The negativity is mostly gone. Maybe next time read the first page then the last?

[Fahlnor]

 

I genuinely don't understand what you guys were expecting (or wanting) that would have made such a vast difference to your experience of this Codex.

 

 

You can't change a book or a thread, by it's cover. The negativity is mostly gone. Maybe next time read the first page then the last?

Noted! And, as mentioned before, apologies for the tone of my post. I had a quick look and you're right - things got a lot better. Happy days!

[Panzer]

And now we have an 11 page thread which consists - judging from the first two pages

This pretty much invalidated your whole post instantly lol

[Pendent]

I'm still in shock I'll be picking up our codex at some point in the next 24 hours. I only started playing the game back in 7th after our codex dropped so this is my first full codex release for my army. Exciting stuff

[Crimson Ghost IX]

So ive been thinking, as i debate whether or not to spend money on this codex, whether forlorn hope could useful as a bait to get footslogging DC up the table and make your opponent move his army to try and counter them or if being up 7-12" from deployment and not inside a vehicle means they are dead without a purpose?

 

Im glad to see you are at least tempted by the book. =) 

I think you are correct it could have been a much better book tho prolly. The more I read about it.

 

Although I am still probably over optimistic about it all, there seems to be some really fun stuffs in there *nod.

 

Morticons original assessment appears pretty solid to me currently really.

I will know more next week when it arrives.

 

On the DC - 

I think you would be better off saving the command points and getting jump packs for the move part probably, instead of the extra foot move I mean.

I know you are thinking to pull them to you with a pre game move... but if you are investing in that stuff... Why not get the jump packs for what they bring anyhow is my thought.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Semirhagge]

Is it worth having at all now DC without jump packs? I have 30 with backpacks but I’m thinking I now need to just put the jump packs on them.

[The Unseen]

Is it worth having at all now DC without jump packs? I have 30 with backpacks but I’m thinking I now need to just put the jump packs on them.

DC in transports of any kind are still fine, just changes the way you use them.

Jump Packs are just generally more appealing with how useful FLY is, and how cheap packs are in comparison to transports this edition.

 

Footslogging them remains a bad idea though.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

^^

Death Company are somewhat fragile and have a big target on their head.

 

Hiding in a transport to ensure the charge etc is an excellent idea still in my opinion and importantly costs no command points and such.

 

You get in into the neighborhood of Lemartes + jump packs cost with just two rhinos tho so think on what you want your list to do.

 

I am inclined to think transporting DC without jumppacks is still pretty decent / good overall tho.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

^^

Death Company are somewhat fragile and have a big target on their head.

 

Hiding in a transport to ensure the charge etc is an excellent idea still in my opinion and importantly costs no command points and such.

 

You get in into the neighborhood of Lemartes + jump packs cost with just two rhinos tho so think on what you want your list to do.

 

I am inclined to think transporting DC without jumppacks is still pretty decent / good overall tho.

There is always lucifer engine strat if you want that boost in speed

[brother_b]

Drop pods: I've been toying with the idea for a very long time. Full Grav cannon devs, or sternguard, coupled with a powerful character. After the Codex tease that powerful character will most likely be Mephiston.

 

But, why just one? Why not my captain and mephiston, along with devs/stern?

 

That would be a great way to hammer and anvil somebody.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

I am thinking I like some Sternguard for the improved profile over the Devs for going up the field with Grav Cannon.

I will likely run mine in Rhino tho prolly supported with Dreads. While I get the new codex digested and the arms sorted to put back on the rest of my JumpVets etc.

 

I like the Rhino over the pod because cheaper, remains mobile, and I can choose to stay in it with one of my units. (Thinking 1 choppy/1 shooty/ perhaps 1 char) x2.

However the pod can perhaps get deeper faster depending on deployments so it kinda depends on the plan.

Also I dislike the idea of a drop pod being screened out.

Also Also Rhino bumper cars is a thing.

 

I have been wondering how much importance should be placed on securing the backfield after turn 1.

With our superior ability to deal with things 'behind' us granted by Wings of Fire and so forth everything is in front of us in a way.

 

I am about controlling the center of the table by turn 2 and massing against the enemy where I find them thereafter with options still available in later turns.

 

I like the idea of getting my fire support infantry forward so I can leverage the Red Thirst with Blood Angels and provide a more central point for the jump hammers etc.

It's possible the points are just not there to do this really well and a spearcast with back line is better. Dunno yet for sure.

 

We are also CP starved so I am looking for ways to save them to keep the tactical initiative in later turns.

 

Prolly would be best just to dust off my old IG figs for cheap CP access but I am gonna resist that for now...

Mixed Imperial forces is the way for the tourney fellas tho I feel.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Karhedron]

I have been wondering how much importance should be placed on securing the backfield after turn 1.

With our superior ability to deal with things 'behind' us granted by Wings of Fire and so forth everything is in front of us in a way.

That will depend on where the objectives are. You may find the best solution is to plan to play aggressively and deploy what objectives you can in no-mans land to that you can jump onto them T1. No need to dedicate units as backfield objective campers if you don't put objectives in your backfield.

[Remtek]

Played a small game today, 1000 points. Only 6 cp, even though i wanted to use the rulebook re-rolls a lot, i saved all CP for DoA and the redeploys and it really payed off. After playing with the index a while it's hard to shake the liberal use of CP re-rolls. 

 

I'm really loving the new book.  The internal balance in the codex could use some tweaking, but the strats are so much fun! Love the traits and relics, there are actually some hard choices to make there. 

[CrimsonExarch]

So here are three examples of some lists i've come up with. They are all minimum of 9 CP and play to our strengths. I would rather we focussed our discussion on pure BA and as such I have not considered any soup options. What do you guys think? I probably prefer list 1 and 3....But I think alot of our better lists will look similar to these.

List 1:



List 2:

 

 

List 3:

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by CrimsonExarch

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Man, lots of BA bandwagoners at the locals now.

I still feel like there is a knee jerk reaction that Death Company are the only competitive build out there for us. I was trying to explain this to one of the new BA players. They shot me down.

I realize there is going to be a lot of debate on this. I'm okay with that. But if you're taking a big blob of death company the same thing is going to happen regardless of placement. There is still the fact that after your initial assault a good player is going to be able to restrict that type of alpha strike.

Granted the meta at this store is not as good as the meta at other places; so maybe it will work out. You still need some semblance of balance. I personally feel like Sanguinary Guard are the better option; even if they are a few points more because they have 2W a 2+ save and benefit from the Banner of Sacrifice. This makes it more appealing than Death company and Lemartes. 

Time will ultimately tell what will happen. Him saying almost no army has a counter to it really made me think of what armies would and wouldn't have outs to either alpha/beta strike. I just feel most in the competitive scene are going to more counters than what we might initially think.

[brother_b]

Crimson:

 

I'm surprised intercessors are so cheap. Wow. 10 wounds for 91 points vs. 5 wounds and a LC for 90 points. Interesting. 

 

I like your first list personally, as it's closer to what I have and includes many of the things I want to put in my list.

 

List #2 looks cool, also, I'm interested in seeing how the intercessors do and you've got the man, the myth, the legend in Mephiston!

 

My only comment would be it looks like in list #3 you plan on destroying heavy targets with powerfists and melee?