Competitive BA list discussion *Post-Codex*

[Panzer]

Man, lots of BA bandwagoners at the locals now.

I still feel like there is a knee jerk reaction that Death Company are the only competitive build out there for us. I was trying to explain this to one of the new BA players. They shot me down.

I realize there is going to be a lot of debate on this. I'm okay with that. But if you're taking a big blob of death company the same thing is going to happen regardless of placement. There is still the fact that after your initial assault a good player is going to be able to restrict that type of alpha strike.

Granted the meta at this store is not as good as the meta at other places; so maybe it will work out. You still need some semblance of balance. I personally feel like Sanguinary Guard are the better option; even if they are a few points more because they have 2W a 2+ save and benefit from the Banner of Sacrifice. This makes it more appealing than Death company and Lemartes. 

Time will ultimately tell what will happen. Him saying almost no army has a counter to it really made me think of what armies would and wouldn't have outs to either alpha/beta strike. I just feel most in the competitive scene are going to more counters than what we might initially think.

Take it as excitement and naivity of a new player. We've all been there and he will learn soon enough (or be happy forever since his meta allows for such lists to work lol).

Sometimes I wish I could return to those carefree days. :D

[Charlo]

Okay so here is what in working with at the moment, it's based around models I own (plus s box of intercessors which seem mandatory for good, cheap troops that aren't scouts).

 

======

Lemartes

Mephiston

 

 

2x 5 Intercessors: grenade launcher & Chainsword

5 Scouts: combat blades and pistols

 

12 Death Company: Hammer, Fist, 2 Swords

9 Sternguard: 2x Melta Gun

 

10 Hellblasters: standard plasma

 

Drop pod

======

 

Plan is Scouts and Intercessors run objectives and interference.

 

Sternguard and Mephiston arrive in Pod, use the marksmen strat to open stuff up and classic wings+quickening to ensure he gets the charge.

 

Death Company and Lemartes so the whole Descent of Angels thing to ensure they hit the target.

 

Hellblasters shoot stuff.

 

Currently at 1361pts so about 500-650 to play with. But only 6CP, so beyond the initial Descent of Angels and Marksmen there is only 3 left to play with.

 

Now I'm stuck...!

 

I have a lot of gold Terminators I could use but other than clearing some chaff I'm not sure what they'll achieve, maybe going for some SG instead would be better?

 

I probably need a captain for a relic or such and it's seeming like the Angels Wing might be the way to go? Plus the rerolls would be nice for the landing party and he could always fly back to the Hellblasters if they suddenly need rerolls...

 

Also very much miss the Storm Raven but unsure where it would fit in (probably with a Death Company Dread too...)

 

Our codex has a LOT of choice now...

 

Update:

 

Okay I think with a few rejigs I can fit 3 Plasma Inceptors, a Raven with Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters & Hurricanes and a Talon/ Grapple DC Dread in there.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Charlo

[The Unseen]

I still can't see buying a drop pod, too many points that don't do anything.

 

In my case, I'm thinking a brigade is the way for us.

 

Captain, jump pack, Hammer or Relic Blade, combi-melta

Mephiston

Lemartes

 

2 squads, 5 company vets with Storm bolters, packs, chainswords, PS on sarge

12 man DC squad, 2 hammers

 

6 squads of 5 scouts

 

3x Tarantula, TL Heavy Bolters

 

2x quad heavy bolter rapiers

1x dev squad, 2 lascannons, cherub

 

^That's about 1500 pts, which is still quite a bit of wiggle room.

Does need a lot more heavy firepower though.

 

But Tarantulas are dirt cheap fire support in the fast attack slot, and small dev squads and rapier batteries are pretty decent for cheap, and we already load up on HQs and Elites, and 30 scouts is only 330 pts.

Edited December 11, 2017 by The Unseen

[sebs_evo7]

I think the drop pod coupled with a squad and mephiston is an OK points cost. It puts mephy where he needs to be and gives your opponent something to think about.

The possibility that mephy could drop down, jump blockers and charge that prize unit/tank is enough to force you to deploy against it

[Subsided]

In list #1. Are the points off for Preds? I'm seeing 202. 102 for base,100 for 4 Lascannons.

 

That's sadly 36 more points for the 3.

[The Unseen]

I think the drop pod coupled with a squad and mephiston is an OK points cost. It puts mephy where he needs to be and gives your opponent something to think about.

The possibility that mephy could drop down, jump blockers and charge that prize unit/tank is enough to force you to deploy against it

Except that Mephy, turn 1, can move 19", then get a 2d6+3 rerollable charge that can move over enemy models by himself.

So a consistent threat range of around 27" or something.

 

You aren't going to be doing much jumping over intervening models either way, unless the unit your moving over is literally in a 1 model thick line.

You have to land 9" away, and you get to move 12, but have to stay more than 1" away from things you aren't assaulting.

So unless they have a unit that's actually a good target for Mephy that is literally right behind their defensive blockers, you aren't getting that charge off.

And then he's all alone, probably unsupported.

[Panzer]

In list #1. Are the points off for Preds? I'm seeing 202. 102 for base,100 for 4 Lascannons.

That's sadly 36 more points for the 3.

102p base is right. For some reason ours are more expensive than the vanilla ones.

[Pendent]

 

I think the drop pod coupled with a squad and mephiston is an OK points cost. It puts mephy where he needs to be and gives your opponent something to think about.

The possibility that mephy could drop down, jump blockers and charge that prize unit/tank is enough to force you to deploy against it

Except that Mephy, turn 1, can move 19", then get a 2d6+3 rerollable charge that can move over enemy models by himself.

So a consistent threat range of around 27" or something.

 

You aren't going to be doing much jumping over intervening models either way, unless the unit your moving over is literally in a 1 model thick line.

You have to land 9" away, and you get to move 12, but have to stay more than 1" away from things you aren't assaulting.

So unless they have a unit that's actually a good target for Mephy that is literally right behind their defensive blockers, you aren't getting that charge off.

And then he's all alone, probably unsupported.

 

You're definitely right in that the drop pod probably doesn't make sense for Mephiston. I prefer starting him on the table and trying to set him up for a turn 2 charge as two turns with that much movement will give you a really solid chance of making it into your opponent's backfield. While he is probably unsupported at that point he's relatively cheap and has a good chance of breaking something important. Potentially several somethings if you do it right.

 

I've been toying with a list concept that involves an alpha and beta strike that he might fit into pretty well. First turn use Reivers and Inceptors to clear as big a hole in your opponent's screen as you can and second turn drop in your blender of choice and try to punch through that hole you made. I'm waiting till battlescribe updates to actually write the list out but I see some potential. My biggest concern is leaving enough points for my own backfield.

[brother_b]

 

 

I think the drop pod coupled with a squad and mephiston is an OK points cost. It puts mephy where he needs to be and gives your opponent something to think about.

The possibility that mephy could drop down, jump blockers and charge that prize unit/tank is enough to force you to deploy against it

Except that Mephy, turn 1, can move 19", then get a 2d6+3 rerollable charge that can move over enemy models by himself.

So a consistent threat range of around 27" or something.

 

You aren't going to be doing much jumping over intervening models either way, unless the unit your moving over is literally in a 1 model thick line.

You have to land 9" away, and you get to move 12, but have to stay more than 1" away from things you aren't assaulting.

So unless they have a unit that's actually a good target for Mephy that is literally right behind their defensive blockers, you aren't getting that charge off.

And then he's all alone, probably unsupported.

 

You're definitely right in that the drop pod probably doesn't make sense for Mephiston. I prefer starting him on the table and trying to set him up for a turn 2 charge as two turns with that much movement will give you a really solid chance of making it into your opponent's backfield. While he is probably unsupported at that point he's relatively cheap and has a good chance of breaking something important. Potentially several somethings if you do it right.

 

I've been toying with a list concept that involves an alpha and beta strike that he might fit into pretty well. First turn use Reivers and Inceptors to clear as big a hole in your opponent's screen as you can and second turn drop in your blender of choice and try to punch through that hole you made. I'm waiting till battlescribe updates to actually write the list out but I see some potential. My biggest concern is leaving enough points for my own backfield.

 

Why not put him in the drop pod, with gunner types along for the ride. He can use his psychic power to move within charge range. He can fire, and the drop pod and others in the pod (dev or stern for instance) can soften up his target.

 

I've been thinking about this a while. I don't have the shooty squad built yet though.

[CrimsonExarch]

In list #1. Are the points off for Preds? I'm seeing 202. 102 for base,100 for 4 Lascannons.

 

That's sadly 36 more points for the 3.

 

I made that list prior to the official codex points being released. I suspect that this is a typo and will be corrected in an errata soon. There should be no point descrepancies for generic marine units between marine codices. The list had 150points to spare though and there were only 2 preds total so it would be an additional 24pts.

[Charlo]

When I have a game in going to try the Mephiston and Shooty squad in a pod idea. Should be pretty gnarly.

[BloodTzar]

So any ideas about the most optimal list that our codex can dish out?

 

Someone here has posted one I like the most;

All the buff/ Beat stick HQs, banner HQ, 3xLas Tacs, 3xScouts, big JP DC, big SG dual las-peds - 1850 9CPs, very optimal 

 

Is there anything better? Perhaps incorporating flyers?

[Panzer]

I think it's too early to determine the most optimal list. Getting the right balance between shooting and melee is a bit more tricky than simply taking the best shooty units like other armies can do.

[Karhedron]

Agreed. It is also not just the best units but employing them well. Getting the elements in your army to work well together and employing the right tools at the right time will be crucial. Sometime you will need to hang back and weaken the enemy with shooting before using your melee units to deliver a knock-out blow. At others you will need to go Baals to the wall for an all-out assault early on.

[Pendent]

 

 

 

I think the drop pod coupled with a squad and mephiston is an OK points cost. It puts mephy where he needs to be and gives your opponent something to think about.

The possibility that mephy could drop down, jump blockers and charge that prize unit/tank is enough to force you to deploy against it

Except that Mephy, turn 1, can move 19", then get a 2d6+3 rerollable charge that can move over enemy models by himself.

So a consistent threat range of around 27" or something.

 

You aren't going to be doing much jumping over intervening models either way, unless the unit your moving over is literally in a 1 model thick line.

You have to land 9" away, and you get to move 12, but have to stay more than 1" away from things you aren't assaulting.

So unless they have a unit that's actually a good target for Mephy that is literally right behind their defensive blockers, you aren't getting that charge off.

And then he's all alone, probably unsupported.

 

You're definitely right in that the drop pod probably doesn't make sense for Mephiston. I prefer starting him on the table and trying to set him up for a turn 2 charge as two turns with that much movement will give you a really solid chance of making it into your opponent's backfield. While he is probably unsupported at that point he's relatively cheap and has a good chance of breaking something important. Potentially several somethings if you do it right.

 

I've been toying with a list concept that involves an alpha and beta strike that he might fit into pretty well. First turn use Reivers and Inceptors to clear as big a hole in your opponent's screen as you can and second turn drop in your blender of choice and try to punch through that hole you made. I'm waiting till battlescribe updates to actually write the list out but I see some potential. My biggest concern is leaving enough points for my own backfield.

 

Why not put him in the drop pod, with gunner types along for the ride. He can use his psychic power to move within charge range. He can fire, and the drop pod and others in the pod (dev or stern for instance) can soften up his target.

 

I've been thinking about this a while. I don't have the shooty squad built yet though.

 

 

For the most part I expect my shooty unit of choice is going to be Inceptors, at least for the stuff you'd use a drop pod for. They are just so insanely cost efficient compared compared to something like Sternguard while at the same time fitting in more with the rest of our army that I have a hard time using anything else. They're also one of the few decent fast attack options we have as well, leaving those elite or heavy support slots for other stuff.

 

On a related note, how are people transporting their Inceptors? They're sort of a nightmare with those bases.

 

 

Agreed. It is also not just the best units but employing them well. Getting the elements in your army to work well together and employing the right tools at the right time will be crucial. Sometime you will need to hang back and weaken the enemy with shooting before using your melee units to deliver a knock-out blow. At others you will need to go Baals to the wall for an all-out assault early on.

 

I'm loving this combined arms concept for us.  My thought so far is that it would be a good idea to pick units for our shooting options decent in assault whenever possible- Inceptors, Intercessors, Reivers... Primaris apparently. It's going to be tough to strike the right balance, especially when it comes to anti-large. With the index it didn't feel too hard to cram 12 lascannons or so into my lists because there weren't all that many great options I was giving up for that firepower. Post codex I really don't know what I'm going to do. I expect my Sicaran is going to be a part of most lists I take from here on out but aside from that it's pretty iffy. I like the idea of Stormtalons but all I have are the missile launcher variety which seems fairly underpowered at the moment for tank hunting compared to lascannons, which probably leaves me with lascannon razorbacks.

 

Two lazorbacks, a Sicaran with Lascannon sponsons, a Gravis Captain for counter charge and rerolls along with 3 Intercessors for screening seems like a good place to start but that's already 7 drops with less that 50% my points used up. Lots to think about, especially when I want to fit Dreadnoughts and psykers in there before even getting to the stuff I have in reserves.

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by Pendent

[Aothaine]

I'm pretty sure that the more competitive Blood Angel only lists will be a mix of Primaris and regular marines. The list I'm working on building uses assault terminators with a line of primaris to help assault and grab objectives. Still wondering if going SG or DC would be better than the terminators.. but terminators are tough as nails with their 2+/3++/5+++ saves.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Edit:

 

Thinking about it and removing a driver squad and dropping two Encarmine blades for power fists I think this list has some good potential. I also feel like it is fairly balanced with a decent amount of CPs.

 

 

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [56 PL, 1160pts] ++

 

+ Flyer +

 

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 352pts]: 2x Stormstrike missile launcher, Twin assault cannon, Twin multi-melta

. Two hurricane bolters: 2x Hurricane bolter

 

+ HQ +

 

The Sanguinor [9 PL, 170pts]

 

+ Elites +

 

Reiver Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Combat knife, Grav-chute, 4x Reiver

. Reiver Sergeant: Bolt carbine, Heavy bolt pistol

 

Reiver Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Combat knife, Grav-chute, 4x Reiver

. Reiver Sergeant: Bolt carbine, Heavy bolt pistol

 

Sanguinary Guard [22 PL, 438pts]

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Power fist

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Power fist

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

 

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [55 PL, 840pts] ++

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [5 PL, 114pts]: Twin assault cannon

 

Razorback [5 PL, 114pts]: Twin assault cannon

 

Razorback [5 PL, 114pts]: Twin assault cannon

 

+ Troops +

 

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

+ HQ +

 

Sanguinary Priest [5 PL, 86pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Jump Pack

 

Sanguinary Priest [5 PL, 86pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Jump Pack

 

+ Elites +

 

Sanguinary Guard Ancient [6 PL, 106pts]: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

 

++ Total: [111 PL, 2000pts]

Edited December 11, 2017 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Brother Aether]

So, I'm not sure if this is 100% the right thread for this, but...

 

Can we make viable, competitive BA-only lists without Primaris?

 

I don't really have anything against them, I just have a lot of legacy models and not much spare cash for new models ATM (It's also hard to justify when I have 2–3 tactical squads from 2nd Edition lying around, alongside a pair of scout squads). I know/feel that Primaris are good for us (given the additional attack, wound pair nicely as starting points for our CT and stratagems), I'm just trying to figure out how to allocate my limited funds right now.

 

Thanks for any input!

[Pendent]

So, I'm not sure if this is 100% the right thread for this, but...

 

Can we make viable, competitive BA-only lists without Primaris?

 

I don't really have anything against them, I just have a lot of legacy models and not much spare cash for new models ATM (It's also hard to justify when I have 2–3 tactical squads from 2nd Edition lying around, alongside a pair of scout squads). I know/feel that Primaris are good for us (given the additional attack, wound pair nicely as starting points for our CT and stratagems), I'm just trying to figure out how to allocate my limited funds right now.

 

Thanks for any input!

Absolutely yes. All of our good assault units are already standard marines, scouts are really solid troop choices, most of the anti-tank in a mixed army is going to be standard marines anyways. I don't know exactly what that competitive* list would look like but it's definitely there.

 

*I have no idea if this means top table at a tournament competitive, but I also have no idea if a Primaris force can do that either. It's early days yet, right?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So, I'm not sure if this is 100% the right thread for this, but...

 

Can we make viable, competitive BA-only lists without Primaris?

 

I don't really have anything against them, I just have a lot of legacy models and not much spare cash for new models ATM (It's also hard to justify when I have 2–3 tactical squads from 2nd Edition lying around, alongside a pair of scout squads). I know/feel that Primaris are good for us (given the additional attack, wound pair nicely as starting points for our CT and stratagems), I'm just trying to figure out how to allocate my limited funds right now.

 

Thanks for any input!

You could easily drop the two reiver squads in my above list for Death company, ASM, Attack bikes, LasTac, or additional tanks. Edited December 11, 2017 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Brother Aether]

Thanks for the speedy responses Dont-Be-Haten and Pendent – I'll probably post a list or two within a few days, but it's nice to know that I can get by with what I have for now.

[Aothaine]

Thanks for the speedy responses Dont-Be-Haten and Pendent – I'll probably post a list or two within a few days, but it's nice to know that I can get by with what I have for now.

 

Yep you totally can. Good luck and I await the list. I think the most competitive will be the mixed lists but only standard or only primaris are both going to be good as well.

[Panzer]

I honestly think it's easier to make a competetive list completely without Primaris than it is without non-Primaris. Primaris are good but they are pretty limited for now.

[Pendent]

I honestly think it's easier to make a competetive list completely without Primaris than it is without non-Primaris. Primaris are good but they are pretty limited for now.

They're really strong for certain roles but there are massive, gaping holes in what they can do. Mind you, letting them use normal transports would help a ton with pretty much all of their problems aside from the lack of dedicated assault units.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

If you didn't catch it or notice;The above list is actually an accumulation of stuff from 7th. The Golden host, SR, 10th co. and 3x Razorbacks were pretty standard in my list builds. The only additions are the reivers, because I feel reivers are better than DC. Edited December 11, 2017 by Dont-Be-Haten