Competitive BA list discussion *Post-Codex*

[Indefragable]

Brothers of Baal,

We are in this together. If the BA, Flesh Tearers, Knights of Blood can rally in the common cause of defending Sanguinius’ own planet, then so too can we support each other and figure out together how best to defeat our foes.


Focus on picking up your battle brother and sharing your ammo. If you want to go off on a flank on your own, then that’s fine, but make sure you get the lead out to keep those gaunts off your brothers’ blind spots. I don’t care if you’re 67-0 using only looted whirlwinds with one track and rolling dice with one hand behind your back. I don’t care if you’re 0-126 even though your opponent let you have an extra 1000pts, warlord Titan, and you got to uppercut him every time he scored an one to objective. This is when we rectify that.

The clock resets now. There are new tools for us to use OR ignore as we so wish, but now is the time to provide that data and constructive advice in order to help fraters in their own pursuit of angelic beatdowns.

Those who know me certainly can relate to my ability to gripe anyone’s ears off. To piss and moan with the best of them. To make even the sunniest of days at the beach feel like an emo putt party with free black eyeliner. Brothers, I know the depths of despair and frustration we have all felt. I know how the Rage boils up inside as you fee that GW Just. Doesn’t. Get us. How the 7th (really 6th) Ed Codex came out...right before the Age of the Decurion. How we were stuck with a single Flyer for YEARS. How our beloved Chapter Master was Unwieldy(!!!) for so many editions. How even when Deathwatch Overkill came out and the Imperium’s version of the Dirty Dozen arrived, our representation had...a hand flamer and chainsword...when gains words really sucked. How after all the hype Angel’s Blade came out, only to give us a Decurion that was nigh unplayable with its redundant non-stacking rules and minimum thresholds of 1200pts. We have certainly faced some dark times.

But a new day has dawned. There are still clouds in the sky and and cold dew has not yet burned off. But the light is coming. It is up to us to choose what we do with that light. There are some head-scratchers in the new Codex for sure. Why DC are still only 6+ FNP and prone to Morale...why we must burn CP to use Lucifer engines...why Mephy doesn’t have an in-built invuln like almost every other chief librarian...why Shied of Sanguinius got nerfed go 5++...and why our own Dante, Lord Commander Nihilus, still has nowhere near befitting his stature. I could go on, brothers. We all could...

...but I won’t. Because Dante wont. He will take the slap in the face without rancor or spite and say thank you, my role is to serve humanity however it is needed. Because he can take it. Because he is the hero we have rather than the hero we deserve. Because he won’t ever give up. Because he is a Blood Angel.

Brothers,

In the past several years since joining this hobby, I have never been this excited. We have tools that allow us to play in creative, decisive, and devastating fashion. Like any tools they will not work on their own. They require brains, bravado, and ball-istic aggression. For the first time in my years of playing BA, we have hope. We will find a way and we will succeed. And we do that by sticking together and supporting each other through highs and lows.

Let this be our finest hour.

Feel the Rage deep inside you. Let the Thirst power drive you forwards. But always with the physical and mental fortitude of our genesire. Ride those feelings. Let them hone your art. Use them to your advantage, but always towards the betterment of humanity and your battle brothers. Be a Blood Angel

**********************

Pouring over as many leaked details as I can, here’s a juicy dilemma:

Assassin Captain:
—jump pack
—thunder hammer
—mocha latte with extra foam whatever else you want (I would take combi-melta)

You do the Death Visions thing to give him Black Rage since red-and-black is the new black. Do you:

A. Take Relic Thunder hammer so that you’re practically guaranteed to land some serious blows. Running with Lemartes means you should get those charge re-rolls.

B. Take the Angel’s Wing so you have the option to break off independently with Wings of Fire (no, not that special recipe for a Super Bowl party snack) and go Hammer Time as opportunity presents?

Next question...

...usual disclaimer of “Depends On Rest Of List” aside, what would be the priority of Relics?

1. Standard of Sacrifice
Why aren’t you bringing this? What Roy mean you don’t have any ancients?

2a. Veritable Vitae
The most applicably useful, yet a bit of a gamble. 33% chance to refund a Strategem is good and WILL matter in games, but still a dicey (hah!) prospect

2b. Angel’s Wing
Nothing short of game-changing, especially combined with On Wings of Firey Buffalo Sauce. This thing has serious potential, especially on a roided our DC Capt. But is it more of a priority than the above two? This is one that you can really build a list around, like the Standard.

3. Hammer of Baal
Useful. In a vacuum it’s amazing, but compared to the others above..

The rest are useless, IMO, because you’re prob running s Libby Dread or Meph or you’re bringing s Force axe or sword because you’re Thirsty for some Red drink.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Morticon

[Zynk Kaladin]

Such inspiring words would make even the most ardent reclusiarch blush.

[Sigvard]

The question I would ask as it seems my SG and DC list now fronted by a DC Captain will run quite nicely.

 

Has the Relic thing cleared up -  is it still only one relic per character or is it now one relic of that type per character?

[Frater Cornelius]

+1 to Indefragable. That man speaks wisdom.

 

Now, as for BA, I have noticed something interesting. While quite similar in many respects, BA and SM currently diverge into different directions. To put it plainly, if I want to play Primaris with some Marine support, I am better of using C:SM. If I want to play Marines with some Primaris support, I would want to play BA. Here is why.

 

BA have a specialized focus, namely precision strikes, aggressive plays and close combat. To capitalize on that, as well as their Stratagems, I will need to invest plenty of points in suitable characters, DC, SG, you name it. This will not leave sufficient points to make a good Primaris core. Instead, you are looking at Primaris as auxiliary forces, like Intercessors to get that Batallion, Reivers to improve you deep striking game, Inceptors as JP harassment unit. Building a full Primaris core would be not as powerful, because they can not make as much use of the native BA tactics. Special BA units can though, they are the very definition of native.

 

Meanwhile, vanilla Marines are far more generalistic. They shoot ok, they fight ok. Their tactics are designed around the midfield and then go from there. Primaris are very suited for this kind of game, because it does not require a core of specialized units, meaning a Primaris core can happen. This does not leave enough points to go big on classic Marines, but they can be used to supplement Primaris, just as Primaris supplement Marines in the BA book.

 

I am not saying that one book can not do both styles. What I am saying is that if I wanted to take full advantage of the strengths of those books, this is how I would do it.

[Blindhamster]

I think the jump pack related strategems will work incredibly well with inceptors.

 

The fact all primaris have multiple attacks means they actually benefit more than most standard marine units. Our gravis captain's are better than all core ones except maybe salamanders.

 

We actually in theory make all our primaris units a threat at close range - if primaria apothecaries had given the +1 strength like priests a pure primaris army would be a deceptively good melee army

[H311fi5h]

How will you get sufficient CP's to use all those amazing strategems? Two min battalions with scouts or 5-men tactical squads? I guess a Brigade is not going to leave much room for large elite units of Sanguinary Guard or Death company and expensive HQ's. Maybe cooking some imperial soup would help? An Astra Militarum brigade can be built for 700 points with a large number of cheap fire base and objective camping units, so you can spend 1300 points on cool stuff.

Btw is there something useful for terminators in the codex, other than the reroll to hit strategem?

 

edit: I don't actually play Blood Angels, but I'm really tempted to start...

Edited December 3, 2017 by H311fi5h

[neonmole]

I would hazard a bit of both is true.

 

Rayvn - I would caution against just telling everyone else that they are bad. I have also had success with my Index BA, I went about 9-1 over the course of that period. However I also realise that my friends have a LOT less expierience than me. On the other hand, I certainly felt you could win with index BA providing your opponent is not playing some 84 Malific Lord junk.

 

With respect the the whining though, particularly those complaining about this new book, I can’t really fathom it. It has a lot of strength, and to my mind is very much in line with the way BA should fight. I guarantee there are going to be some combos in here that cause salt tears on other forums like this. I mean, take Mephiston - moves 7, flies 12, 2d6(+3 re rollable) charge with quickening, can add another d3 attacks with stratagem. Think about that. He has a very reliable THIRTY inch threat range on turn 1, with 4+d3+d3 attacks... oh and he can charge fliers.

 

This is obviously just one example, but to say this book doesn’t have power is absurd. The above alone is bonkers.. and this is first day analysis.

[Blindhamster]

6 5 man intercessor squads and 3 5 man reiver squads is 800 points, a few more if you add some upgrades.

 

3 3 man inceptor squads with dual assault bolters

 

And 3 5 man hellblaster squads with plasma incinerators increases the total to 1630

 

370 left for hq...

 

2 lieutenants and a gravis captain brings it to 1908.

 

Assume grenade launchers on the intercessors and grapnels on the reivers

 

1920 so enough remaining for a primaris apothecary or ancient... or maybe a sanguinary priest - assigned for spiritual guidance.

 

One brigade.

 

73 bodies and over 150 wounds. Some deceptive mobility available as the reivers ignore height and come in from a flank plus the inceptors can make use of upon wings of fire to reposition etc.

 

The entire army is not terrible in melee purely because of the BA bonuses.

 

(The above is just a primaris example or course, better ones using non primaris will clearly exist)

 

(Reason I suggest gravis, is i think he is likely the better bet for a melee focused primaris character)

Edited December 3, 2017 by Blindhamster

[H311fi5h]

You example does prove a problem though: If you want to get a significant number of CP's, you're left with no points to take any large elite unit, no 10-men Sanguinary Guard or 20-men Death Company. If I was to play Blood Angels I would want at least one of those, if not both. And it is those units that really profit the most from things like the Descent of Angels strategem. So if you want large, expensive elite units you either go pure BA and you'll most likely end up with only 7 CP's (Battalion+Vanguard) or you go soup for 12+. 

[Blindhamster]

You could get double battalion running 6 intercessor, tactical or scout squads to taste.

[Are Verlo]

6 5 man intercessor squads and 3 5 man reiver squads is 800 points, a few more if you add some upgrades.

 

3 3 man inceptor squads with dual assault bolters

 

And 3 5 man hellblaster squads with plasma incinerators increases the total to 1630

 

370 left for hq...

 

2 lieutenants and a gravis captain brings it to 1908.

 

Assume grenade launchers on the intercessors and grapnels on the reivers

 

1920 so enough remaining for a primaris apothecary or ancient... or maybe a sanguinary priest - assigned for spiritual guidance.

 

One brigade.

 

73 bodies and over 150 wounds. Some deceptive mobility available as the reivers ignore height and come in from a flank plus the inceptors can make use of upon wings of fire to reposition etc.

 

The entire army is not terrible in melee purely because of the BA bonuses.

 

(The above is just a primaris example or course, better ones using non primaris will clearly exist)

 

(Reason I suggest gravis, is i think he is likely the better bet for a melee focused primaris character)

I would love to play that army. Unfortunately I don’t own a single primaris model

[Blindhamster]

 

*snip*

I would love to play that army. Unfortunately I don’t own a single primaris model

As I say, using non primaris will be more efficient and likely more powerful.

 

But I do think that primaris units can get a fair bit from BA rules, purely because the chassis of 2 wounds and 2 attacks base is pretty decent.

[neonmole]

I have been thinking along similar lines BlindHamster.

 

I haven’t got on the Primaris train yet, and I am not sure going full brigade is the best option; however, I do think Intercessors at their new pts cost en mass for blood angels has a lot of potential.

 

They are very good for holding backfield objectives, and advancing on the mid field, and I believe represent the best efficiency in the troops catagory if resilience is your main criteria.

 

I thinks. Base of 30 or so intercessors will become a staple in quite a few BA, or even codex armies, pure Primaris or not.

 

Cheers

Joe

[Dont-Be-Haten]

After watching a couple bat reps of blokes with the new codex my assumption is becoming more conclusive.

 

The massive blob of Death Company drops down, annihilates a unit, Lamartes is left in the dust and the DC are focus fired down after their initial charge/unit wipe.

 

The counter attacks are going to be a real threat, which makes me think MSU assaults are going to be better.

 

The other problem I noticed was people are still taking a lot of ICs. Still perhaps too many.

 

I think either VVs or SGs will be superior options to DCs since they can float around the banner of Sacrifice.

[Blindhamster]

I don't know if brigade is the right choice either, though I think for BA the loadout I put above may not be a bad call.

 

Intercessors are mandatory in pure primaris if you're going for CP, and are a decent choice regardless.

 

It's widely accepted that hellblasters are great.

 

So that means the only really additions are inceptors and reivers.

 

For BA, reivers are going to be quite good as they have weight of attacks coupled with some resiliency and the red thirst - putting the ancient with them and using the banner of sacrifice might be the way to go there.

 

Then inceptors are logical to make use of a few of the BA specific abilities.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

How do you feel about the double repulser build. 2 huge bullet magnets, but backed by the big three? Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Interceptors? Or would you try to tank it and take 2 Aggressors, just to push up the board in the tanks, forcing your opponent's target priority with Inceptors dropping down to harass the back lines?

[JamesI]

The question I would ask as it seems my SG and DC list now fronted by a DC Captain will run quite nicely.

 

Has the Relic thing cleared up -  is it still only one relic per character or is it now one relic of that type per character?

1 per character.

[Blindhamster]

How do you feel about the double repulser build. 2 huge bullet magnets, but backed by the big three? Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Interceptors? Or would you try to tank it and take 2 Aggressors, just to push up the board in the tanks, forcing your opponent's target priority with Inceptors dropping down to harass the back lines?

I've used double repulsor and it was alright, huge amount of points go into them though, at 1500 points I has to run a spearhead to do it as I didn't have enough points for 3 troop choices and still getting some damage dealing units in

Edited December 3, 2017 by Blindhamster

[VanDutch]

How do you feel about the double repulser build. 2 huge bullet magnets, but backed by the big three? Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Interceptors? Or would you try to tank it and take 2 Aggressors, just to push up the board in the tanks, forcing your opponent's target priority with Inceptors dropping down to harass the back lines?

I'd thought about taking 4 aggressors (flamers), a Primaris Chaplain and Primaris Lieutenant in a Repulsor. With +1 to wound rolls (Red Thirst) in combat they're wounding T10 on 3s, and rerolling wounds. It sounds impressive but I haven't balanced it against other options, it's just a thought atm.

[Charlo]

It's a real damn shame that the Primaris apothecary doesn't have the +1 Strength. We have an upgrade sprue with a grail on (though hand scale slightly off I guess...).

 

Does the Primaris Chaplain offer anything different than the normal? Or does it do less too?

[Jolemai]

Will this Codex change how you're using your Devs folks?

[Cleon]

Now it's seemingly confirmed as deliberately an option, not just a side effect of clumsy wording in the index, I'm seriously considering picking up a FW pack of Legion Heavy Flamers to pick up to put together as a Devs unit, probably in one of my Razors, either Assault cannons or Heavy Flamers.

[JamesI]

Now it's seemingly confirmed as deliberately an option, not just a side effect of clumsy wording in the index, I'm seriously considering picking up a FW pack of Legion Heavy Flamers to pick up to put together as a Devs unit, probably in one of my Razors, either Assault cannons or Heavy Flamers.

I have been wanting to try this, but need more heavy flamers.

[Blindhamster]

It's a real damn shame that the Primaris apothecary doesn't have the +1 Strength. We have an upgrade sprue with a grail on (though hand scale slightly off I guess...).

 

Does the Primaris Chaplain offer anything different than the normal? Or does it do less too?

 

Primaris chaplain compared to regular one have the same rules for codex marines, I'm interested to see if there are differences for BA too.

 

Primaris chaplain has a better gun, but no way to get more exciting melee weapons, does have more wounds and attacks though

[Indefragable]

Will this Codex change how you're using your Devs folks?

Depending on the exact new points cost, I may go back to Predators. Draw AT fire, resistant to small arms, can block LoS.

 

For folks worried about “the one way to play” in this Codex, think bigger picture. Every Tactic has a counter and every counter-Tactic has margins that can be exploited. Just because we can do Alpha Strike Charged, doesn’t mean we should do it. It’s an option up our sleeve.

 

I imagine as time goes on, opponents will be like “Blood Angels? Oh :cuss ! Better turtle up to prevent that DS charge!” ...that means we have the initiative and force them to deal with OUR desires. Think of the 1st turn charge as Scouts: positioning the board to your advantage.

 

I would start looking at “level 2” aspects of the Codex: how opponents will block T1 charges (scouts, etc...), how they will plan to counter-attack, and how they will attempt to out-position/out-maneuver us.

 

Brothers, these are all tools in the box. Use them or not, we are better off for having them in our box.