Competitive BA list discussion *Post-Codex*

[CrimsonExarch]

I've been listening to the Forge the Narrative podcast and they have me really excited for Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons. They'll still be relatively cheap (170ish?) and reroll both hits and wounds. Even if they don't make it into combat they'll draw enough fire from our opponents to make the cost worth it.

 

Im still not really convinced. Compare that price to a carnifex at like 110pts...and they get -1 to be hit etc.

[Pendent]

I'll admit I'm one of the many people that knows very little about the tyranid codex, although that will probably be changing because I've seen a few new players at my FLGS who are bringing them.

 

All I can really do is compare the dreads to the rest of our codex and they feel pretty reasonable. Strong even.

[TheHarrower]

So after a fair bit of thinking this is the the first draft of a potentially competitive pure BA list post-codex release....

 

I have 150 points left to spend. Veritas Vitae will be taken on the backline captain and the Ancient will take the Banner of Sacrifice.

 

- scouts deny alpha strike/screen/help clear screens or cap objectives.

 

-Tac marines/preds castle up in cover and provide fire support with the captain aura giving reroll 1s to hit.

 

- DC use forlorn fury strat to apply pressure. Lemartes deep strikes at the end of the movement phase to give rerolls to charge.

 

-Sang guard, priest, Sanguinor and Ancient act as a death star with Descent of Angels strat going on the Guard blob and looking to tie up as many exposed units as possible.

 

What do you guys think of this? I think running 2 batallions is a necessity for us now or we'll end up being starved for CP.

 

 

 

My first go around I had something very similar. I like it. For the Preds, I would go to autocannon. It'll save you 10 ppm and give you a flat 3 damage on light vehicles and multi wound models. For the extra points I would go with a Libby. Unleash Rage on either the Sanguinary Guard or Death Company will do wonders. Also good to have him for smite and deny. I'd be curious to see how this does. I would recommend doing a heavy bolter or 2 in the scout squad. The Hellfire shells start is only1 CP and it does d3 mortal wounds if it hits. Really good if you need to finish something off.

[Charlo]

I feel like 1CP for a couple of Mortals (potentially even just one) is too much resources for us when we're so precious on them with Wings and all the other juicy strats!

[Remtek]

Personally i feel Furioso is a bit lacking in the toughness department and 4 attacks is a bit low for a dedicated close combat dread with low survivability. They have some nice mobility (8) and the grapple, but not sure that is enough. Perhaps with the lucius pod, coming from reserve with a 7" charge vs veichles?

 

I was hoping for the old school blender dread, maybe something like each str6 -2 each attack is d3 attacks with exploding sixes :P

 

A regular fist/ranged weapon dread is cheaper and still hitting on 3s wounding on 2s in combat with the same amount of attacks, they can take a twin las or something else and do more overall. 

Or the Forgeworld chaplain dread, pretty solid in combat, can take a good ranged weapon and is a character with less than 10 wounds (and you can spend a cp for d3 extra attacks when charging) And they provide buffs for other close combat units.

Or the Libby dread for psychic support and mobility and being a character (same reasons as chaplain dread)

Edited December 5, 2017 by Remtek

[TheHarrower]

I feel like 1CP for a couple of Mortals (potentially even just one) is too much resources for us when we're so precious on them with Wings and all the other juicy strats!

 

For sure we are CP starved. Heavy Bolters are only 10 points each though. It's better to have the option if you need it though IMHO. 

[Pendent]

Personally i feel Furioso is a bit lacking in the toughness department and 4 attacks is a bit low for a dedicated close combat dread with low survivability. They have some nice mobility (8) and the grapple, but not sure that is enough. Perhaps with the lucius pod, coming from reserve with a 7" charge vs veichles?

 

I was hoping for the old school blender dread, maybe something like each str6 -2 each attack is d3 attacks with exploding sixes

 

A regular fist/ranged weapon dread is cheaper and still hitting on 3s wounding on 2s in combat with the same amount of attacks, they can take a twin las or something else and do more overall. 

Or the Forgeworld chaplain dread, pretty solid in combat, can take a good ranged weapon and is a character with less than 10 wounds (and you can spend a cp for d3 extra attacks when charging) And they provide buffs for other close combat units.

Or the Libby dread for psychic support and mobility and being a character (same reasons as chaplain dread)

The guys on the podcast were particularly excited by the Death Company Dread. Give in a magna grapple, put it in pod and murder a vehicle first turn and then consolidate 6" into another combat.

[neonmole]

I think the death company dread in a drop pod is a fun idea, but I would not expect to be charging vehicles first turn against anyone who is any good at the game.

 

If they have any understanding of what Magnus grapple does they will make sure that any viable targets cannot be dropped near, it’s really not hard to do.

[Are Verlo]

Based on the summary over at blood of kittens, nothing is stopping us from using descent of angels on a unit as it disembarks from a transport? Or deploying as normal, moving 12” and then, if any targets are within 12”, charging 3d6 with DoA?

[Karhedron]

So after a fair bit of thinking this is the the first draft of a potentially competitive pure BA list post-codex release....

 

I have 150 points left to spend. Veritas Vitae will be taken on the backline captain and the Ancient will take the Banner of Sacrifice.

 

- scouts deny alpha strike/screen/help clear screens or cap objectives.

 

-Tac marines/preds castle up in cover and provide fire support with the captain aura giving reroll 1s to hit.

 

- DC use forlorn fury strat to apply pressure. Lemartes deep strikes at the end of the movement phase to give rerolls to charge.

 

-Sang guard, priest, Sanguinor and Ancient act as a death star with Descent of Angels strat going on the Guard blob and looking to tie up as many exposed units as possible.[/size]

 

What do you guys think of this? I think running 2 batallions is a necessity for us now or we'll end up being starved for CP.

 

I think that looks like a great list. You have decent fire-support from the Tacs and Predators. Screening/harassment from the Scouts and a couple of solid hammers from the DC and SG with character support. I think that dual-Battalion is a good way to ensure sufficient CPs to power our various strats.

 

You mention that you have 150 points left to spend. My recommendation would be a Jump Pack Libby with Force Axe and the Angel's wing Relic (consider dropping the VV for this). Take Unleash Rage and either Wings or Quicken so that you can drop in and guarantee a charge without having to spend any CPs to power it. If your DC or SG are facing a unit with good overwatch like Wraithguard with D-scythes, have the Libby charge first to negate the overwatch. Alternatively, use Wings to jump over screens and assault valuable backfield units. The good thing is that he can assault out of Deep Strike without needing CPs to do it and either be quite killy or support your other units as the situation needs.

 

With an extra HQ, you can split off the DC, SG and Ancient with the Librarian to form a Vanguard detachment for another CP (helping to make up for replacing the Veritas Vitae with the Angel's Wing).

 

Other changes are minor. I would drop 1 TH from the DC and get a few power swords instead. Replacing the lascannons on the Pred with Autocannons might be good but is situational. I think bolter scouts are the weakest version and would rather field Shotgun or BP/CCW for Blood Angels.

[TheHarrower]

Based on the summary over at blood of kittens, nothing is stopping us from using descent of angels on a unit as it disembarks from a transport? Or deploying as normal, moving 12” and then, if any targets are within 12”, charging 3d6 with DoA?

 

Only transport options would be Storm Raven or Land Raider since they are the only ones that can carry Jump Pack models, but RAW that appears to be the case. That will probably be FAQ'd.

[Pendent]

I think the death company dread in a drop pod is a fun idea, but I would not expect to be charging vehicles first turn against anyone who is any good at the game.

 

If they have any understanding of what Magnus grapple does they will make sure that any viable targets cannot be dropped near, it’s really not hard to do.

Sure, but the beauty of reserves in 8th is that if you don't have a good target you can just hold them back for a turn or two. Unless you're playing against a completely static gunline army some sort of gap will almost always open up

[Karhedron]

 

I think the death company dread in a drop pod is a fun idea, but I would not expect to be charging vehicles first turn against anyone who is any good at the game.

 

If they have any understanding of what Magnus grapple does they will make sure that any viable targets cannot be dropped near, it’s really not hard to do.

Sure, but the beauty of reserves in 8th is that if you don't have a good target you can just hold them back for a turn or two. Unless you're playing against a completely static gunline army some sort of gap will almost always open up

 

And if your opponent is not obliging enough to open a gap for you, we have enough firepower at our disposal to make our own.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I listened to that podcast too, they were saying the Furioso was just a shooty dread now, can anyone confirm? ...and the Frag Cannon is still not worth it.

 

Also didn't FW stop making the dreadnought drop-pod? ...cuz without a pod or stormraven the fighty dreads are still kinda crappy, even if a little cheaper now.

 

The DC dread is definitely a huge improvement... I already mentioned how I went an entire game stuck surrounded by Horrors that regenerated so much faster than I could kill them haha... at least now he might eventually fight his way out - but still, without a transport (or falling from a smited stormraven into Horror land) he's pretty useless.

[TheHarrower]

I listened to that podcast too, they were saying the Furioso was just a shooty dread now, can anyone confirm? ...and the Frag Cannon is still not worth it.

 

What do they mean by just a shooty dread? Standard loadout is 2 fists, storm bolter, meltagun. It can take talons or frag cannon. Frag cannon is 8" Assault 2D6 S6 -1 1 for 38 points.

[Pendent]

I listened to that podcast too, they were saying the Furioso was just a shooty dread now, can anyone confirm? ...and the Frag Cannon is still not worth it.

 

Also didn't FW stop making the dreadnought drop-pod? ...cuz without a pod or stormraven the fighty dreads are still kinda crappy, even if a little cheaper now.

 

The DC dread is definitely a huge improvement... I already mentioned how I went an entire game stuck surrounded by Horrors that regenerated so much faster than I could kill them haha... at least now he might eventually fight his way out - but still, without a transport (or falling from a smited stormraven into Horror land) he's pretty useless.

They said the only real advantage the Furioso has is that it's better at shooting. I'm a little mixed on the frag cannon- we're paying less for the rest of the dreadnought so I think taking a frag cannon still nets us like -20 points over the index, and I've definitely had a few decent games where it came in handy. That being said I spent about half an hour last night digging around for the blood talon arm to throw back on because it looks like so much more fun to use. It may only have 4 attacks but when you're rerolling hits, wounding most things on 2's on the charge and then rerolling those you can pump out some serious hurt.

 

The Furioso and DC Dread can both be made cheap enough that their loss isn't a huge deal and even without a transport they're hardly useless- turn 1 they get 8+d6 inches of movement and can potentially pop smoke if you didn't take the magna grapple, giving a fairly reasonable turn 2 charge. They're at least worth trying.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

I listened to that podcast too, they were saying the Furioso was just a shooty dread now, can anyone confirm? ...and the Frag Cannon is still not worth it.

 

Also didn't FW stop making the dreadnought drop-pod? ...cuz without a pod or stormraven the fighty dreads are still kinda crappy, even if a little cheaper now.

 

The DC dread is definitely a huge improvement... I already mentioned how I went an entire game stuck surrounded by Horrors that regenerated so much faster than I could kill them haha... at least now he might eventually fight his way out - but still, without a transport (or falling from a smited stormraven into Horror land) he's pretty useless.

They said the only real advantage the Furioso has is that it's better at shooting. I'm a little mixed on the frag cannon- we're paying less for the rest of the dreadnought so I think taking a frag cannon still nets us like -20 points over the index, and I've definitely had a few decent games where it came in handy. That being said I spent about half an hour last night digging around for the blood talon arm to throw back on because it looks like so much more fun to use. It may only have 4 attacks but when you're rerolling hits, wounding most things on 2's on the charge and then rerolling those you can pump out some serious hurt.

 

The Furioso and DC Dread can both be made cheap enough that their loss isn't a huge deal and even without a transport they're hardly useless- turn 1 they get 8+d6 inches of movement and can potentially pop smoke if you didn't take the magna grapple, giving a fairly reasonable turn 2 charge. They're at least worth trying.

 

 

Regarding the Furioso, better shooting than what? ...a standard SM dread or a the DC dread? I'm glad to hear he can still take fists/talons since I have a ton modeled like this hah.

 

I don't agree the DC Dread or much in our elite-ish codex is cheap enough to throw away though... I do agree the DC Dread is at least worth trying now, in my super bubbly meta I know he'll just be fighting cheap chaff in every game but at least he might actually kill them now so it could work.

[brother_b]

I'll have several dreads available. I like them.

 

DC dread X 2 (metal oldschool with fists, new one with talons).

Shooty dread X 2 (all sorts of weapon options including MM, assault cannon, las cannons, missle pod).

Furioso Dread X 2 (with frag cannon arms or two fists on each).

 

Unbuilt dread: Will build as librarian.

 

I think a detachment with 2 X shooty dreads, 1 X DC/Furioso CC dread, and the leader as the Librarian dread would be really neat for my army. I've used them in only one game this edition and liked them very much.

 

I also want a redemptor dread, as a sort of center piece.

[Silverson]

Soo, I’m playing two games on the weekend and was going to bring 8 sanguinary guard, the sanguinor and the sanguinary ancient.

 

The plan being deepstrike them in turn 1 or 2 depending on target availability. Using the decent of angels stratagem on the sanguinary guard to get the charge.

 

I have since realised that the banner relic is on models within 6” not units.

 

Does this take the edge of the sanguinary ancient for anyone else? It just doesn’t seem good enough using this strategy because of the poor chance of making the charge with the ancient

 

Would it be better to take a priest instead ?

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Soo, I’m playing two games on the weekend and was going to bring 8 sanguinary guard, the sanguinor and the sanguinary ancient.

 

The plan being deepstrike them in turn 1 or 2 depending on target availability. Using the decent of angels stratagem on the sanguinary guard to get the charge.

 

I have since realised that the banner relic is on models within 6” not units.

 

Does this take the edge of the sanguinary ancient for anyone else? It just doesn’t seem good enough using this strategy because of the poor chance of making the charge with the ancient

 

Would it be better to take a priest instead ?

 

Arrg I hate the aura-buff-character mechanic!!! ...but so if you have to DS 9" inches away... with just 8 guys I don't think either the Ancient or the Priest has any particular advantage, either they also make the charge and help, or they don't (likely) and don't help... unless did the Priest bubble get bigger than 6"?

 

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[JamesI]

I'm finding (so far in 2 games with the codex) the aura ranges being 6 inches hurts.  I lvoe my priests and sanguinary ancient and I had a chaplain last night as well but it can be hard to get units to get the buffs they need when they need them.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I'm finding (so far in 2 games with the codex) the aura ranges being 6 inches hurts.  I lvoe my priests and sanguinary ancient and I had a chaplain last night as well but it can be hard to get units to get the buffs they need when they need them.

 

This fact is exactly unchanged from the Index and primarily why the Blood Angels have sucked in 8th imo... at least we're not also paying premium point costs and some units can actually do reasonably well on their own now though.

[JamesI]

 

I'm finding (so far in 2 games with the codex) the aura ranges being 6 inches hurts.  I lvoe my priests and sanguinary ancient and I had a chaplain last night as well but it can be hard to get units to get the buffs they need when they need them.

 

This fact is exactly unchanged from the Index and primarily why the Blood Angels have sucked in 8th imo... at least we're not also paying premium point costs and some units can actually do reasonably well on their own now though.

 

I'm considering moving away from some of hte aura and bring nastier characters.  Bring a captain with Thunder hammer (maybe the relic) and maybe give him the +1 damage warlord trait.

[Charlo]

 

I'm finding (so far in 2 games with the codex) the aura ranges being 6 inches hurts.  I lvoe my priests and sanguinary ancient and I had a chaplain last night as well but it can be hard to get units to get the buffs they need when they need them.

 

This fact is exactly unchanged from the Index and primarily why the Blood Angels have sucked in 8th imo... at least we're not also paying premium point costs and some units can actually do reasonably well on their own now though.

 

I feel like a thing for us should have been bigger auras OR a rule to make Heroic intervention happen when we charge - to help the heroes keep up.

 

Why does Heroic intervention only happen for defensive armies. It's silly.

[TheHarrower]

 

 

I'm finding (so far in 2 games with the codex) the aura ranges being 6 inches hurts.  I lvoe my priests and sanguinary ancient and I had a chaplain last night as well but it can be hard to get units to get the buffs they need when they need them.

 

This fact is exactly unchanged from the Index and primarily why the Blood Angels have sucked in 8th imo... at least we're not also paying premium point costs and some units can actually do reasonably well on their own now though.

 

I feel like a thing for us should have been bigger auras OR a rule to make Heroic intervention happen when we charge - to help the heroes keep up.

 

Why does Heroic intervention only happen for defensive armies. It's silly.

 

 

Characters should be able to attach themselves to a unit and group charge with one roll, but I digress.