Competitive BA list discussion *Post-Codex*

[Blindhamster]

There is a warlord trait that makes characters heroic intervention from 6 inches away instead of 3.

[Panzer]

Yeah the character rules should definitely get improved by adding the note that a character can charge together with a unit in X" (counting as having rolled the same distance). And that he still moves towards the target even if he wouldn't reach CC that way but can't declare another charge that turn.

 

Maybe something to propose towards GW on their facebook page and/or mail since melee armies are really having a hard time currently and part of it comes from it being much more difficult to keep your units within aura range.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

There is a warlord trait that makes characters heroic intervention from 6 inches away instead of 3.

 

Which I love actually, but that still only happens in the opponents turn, not when you're trying to charge.

[MeltaRange]

I'll be giving Intercessors a shot in a firebase.  All with Assault Bolters.  This gives me the option of either standing back and shooting (reaching prime targets since they are Assault 2 24") or by literally advancing forward and trying to get stuck in combat.  Ultimately I will play test but I think that Assault Bolters will be much better at clearing bubblewrap in a "real life" scenario.  Bolt Rifle looks better on paper but I've had a ton of success with the Assault version. 

 

Probably 4x5 Intercessors alongside a bunch of characters.  Including the FNP Banner, Mephiston, and a Chaplain Dreadnought.

 

Chaplain Dreadnought is disgusting enough in a Vanilla SM army, it's going to be so, so dirty in a BA army.  Really looking forward to popping Red Rampage on some hapless tank as I charge in with a guy hitting/wounding on 2+ with an AP-3 4 damage weapon. (warlord trait) The combo of Mephiston + Chaplain Dread is really quite frightening.

 

Then, like others here, the rest of the army will be filled with 2 or more heavy hitting deep strikers, and some Scouts/Devastators.

[Panzer]

I really don't think Assault Bolter are worth it even if your plan is to ultimately get stuck in melee with them (which is not the best plan in the first place anyway). The turn you want to charge you can't advance anyway. They work better for a squad that wants to stay at range or race between objectives but they trade in a lot of firepower for that.

[Blindhamster]

If we had a way to charge after advancing, id have said they may be a good call. But as we dont, I'd take the regular one every time, you've got an effective range of 36 and If you can get within 15 you're doing as many shots as the assault bolters but with a -1 AP penalty.

 

A single unit armed with them may be cool for jumping to objectives though, it's true

[Pendent]

Given that we didn't get advance and charge I'd say if you're looking to take the assault bolters on Intercessors you're almost always better off taking carbine Reivers instead.

[MeltaRange]

I didn't mean to charge, I meant to advance them forward to seize ground and to receive a charge in midfield if the situation required it.  Or, they can sit back a bit and use the better double tap range to be more of a threat at mid range. 

 

The assault bolt rifle doesn't look amazing on paper but I promise you it is an extremely good tactical option especially in the role of clearing out bubble wrap that is preventing our Jump Pack units from hitting home where they want.  As an example, a Tyranid player here uses Gaunts Galore to bubblewrap his 3 Exocrines + Biovoires while he has a forward force of tough melee units to try and distract you from those models.  Many people just give up on trying to go after the Exocrines because they can't get thru the Gaunt screen and their footprint forces you to DS into a disadvantages position.  20 Assault Bolters, I'm somewhat likely to get all 40 shots against that screen on T1 so I can bring down the hammer T2.  WIth regular bolt rifles, I'd be lucky to get 10 or 15 shots...albeit at -1AP. 

 

Even better, those 20 intercessors provide 40 wounds with a 5+ FNP and perhaps even Shield of Sanguinius to blunt the charge of his melee units, allowing me a countercharge with the Chaplain Dread with Red Rampage & Mephiston w/ Quickening which is peace out to basically everything in the game.

 

As someone mentioned here already, I find the Intercessors to be pretty resilient at receiving a charge or screening mortal wound spam in my Vanilla army - it's going to be that much better with the FNP banner aura (But I will miss Psychic Fortress) and also there will be heavier hitters countercharging.

Edited December 5, 2017 by MeltaRange

[MeltaRange]

Given that we didn't get advance and charge I'd say if you're looking to take the assault bolters on Intercessors you're almost always better off taking carbine Reivers instead.

 

I actually do agree with this but I balk at the Elites designation.  I feel pretty strongly that a double battalion is a great move to hoard CPs.

[Blindhamster]

I didn't mean to charge, I meant to advance them forward to seize ground and to receive a charge in midfield if the situation required it. Or, they can sit back a bit and use the better double tap range to be more of a threat at mid range. The assault bolt rifle doesn't look amazing on paper but I promise you it is an extremely good tactical option especially in the role of clearing out bubble wrap that is preventing our Jump Pack units from hitting home where they want. As an example, a Tyranid player here uses Gaunts Galore to bubblewrap his 3 Exocrines + Biovoires while he has a forward force of tough melee units to try and distract you from those models. Many people just give up because they can't get thru the Gaunt screen and it forces to to DS into a disadvantages position. 20 Assault Bolters, I'm somewhat likely to get all 80 shots against that screen on T1 so I can bring down the hammer T2. WIth regular bolt rifles, I'd be lucky to get 10 or 15 shots...albeit at -1AP. Even better, those 20 intercessors provide 40 wounds with a 5+ FNP and perhaps even Shield of Sanguinius to blunt the charge of his melee units, allowing me a countercharge with the Chaplain Dread with Red Rampage & Mephiston w/ Quickening which is piece out to basically everything in the game.

 

As someone mentioned here already, I find the Intercessors to be extremely good at blunting charges or screening mortal wound spam in my Vanilla army - it's going to be that much better with the FNP banner aura (But I will miss Psychic Fortress) and also there will be heavier hitters countercharging.

80 shots with 20 assault bolters?

 

It'd be 40.

[MeltaRange]

You're right, math is hard!  I've fixed it.  

 

BTW this is all just IMO and experience.  I'm sure there will be lists that are "more competitive" than 20 Intercessors.  Though, I do think Intercessors with 12 attacks per 5 in combat are very very interesting choices with The Red Thirst in mind.  Really brings to the forefront a sort of underrated advantage of the Intercessors vs. Tacticals or Scouts.  If only the Sarge could take a Power Sword...grrr...

[Aothaine]

I didn't mean to charge, I meant to advance them forward to seize ground and to receive a charge in midfield if the situation required it.  Or, they can sit back a bit and use the better double tap range to be more of a threat at mid range. 

 

The assault bolt rifle doesn't look amazing on paper but I promise you it is an extremely good tactical option especially in the role of clearing out bubble wrap that is preventing our Jump Pack units from hitting home where they want.  As an example, a Tyranid player here uses Gaunts Galore to bubblewrap his 3 Exocrines + Biovoires while he has a forward force of tough melee units to try and distract you from those models.  Many people just give up on trying to go after the Exocrines because they can't get thru the Gaunt screen and their footprint forces you to DS into a disadvantages position.  20 Assault Bolters, I'm somewhat likely to get all 40 shots against that screen on T1 so I can bring down the hammer T2.  WIth regular bolt rifles, I'd be lucky to get 10 or 15 shots...albeit at -1AP. 

 

Even better, those 20 intercessors provide 40 wounds with a 5+ FNP and perhaps even Shield of Sanguinius to blunt the charge of his melee units, allowing me a countercharge with the Chaplain Dread with Red Rampage & Mephiston w/ Quickening which is peace out to basically everything in the game.

 

As someone mentioned here already, I find the Intercessors to be pretty resilient at receiving a charge or screening mortal wound spam in my Vanilla army - it's going to be that much better with the FNP banner aura (But I will miss Psychic Fortress) and also there will be heavier hitters countercharging.

 

I agree that the assault bolters are really good. People seem to keep dismissing the humble bolter and the damage it can do. I wouldn't setup every intercessor like that. Maybe run them in four msu  and have them hold the mid board with their Obsec and have four msu on the back line hugging that 30" range and protecting your quad-lascannon predators. 

 

This should leave you enough points for your HQ, captain camping the Predators and giving re-rolls to twenty intecessors and three quad-lascannon predators. your front line of intecessors that are grabbing mid board objectives and a unit of 15 Death Company or Sanguinary Guard chewing up a flank. 

[Blindhamster]

You're right, math is hard! I've fixed it.

 

BTW this is all just IMO and experience. I'm sure there will be lists that are "more competitive" than 20 Intercessors. Though, I do think Intercessors with 12 attacks per 5 in combat are very very interesting choices with The Red Thirst in mind. Really brings to the forefront a sort of underrated advantage of the Intercessors vs. Tacticals or Scouts. If only the Sarge could take a Power Sword...grrr...

On the topic of intercessors and power swords.

 

Please ask about it in the warhammer 40k Facebook page, there is at least one legitimate model available to us (anniversary sergeant) so really should be an option.

 

If enough people bring it up, you never know, it might change. Particularly as they sold a model with one saying any marine army could use it, but we can only take chainswords which makes it an illegal model.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Blindhamster]

For the record, I do like auto bolt rifles, I even plan to build my next unit of intercessors with them, but I generally prefer the bolt rifle.

[neonmole]

I have been thinking about trying a couple of assault terminator units, combined with ancient with the FNP banner.

 

Approx 550pts gets you 2x5 Assault terms with a mix of claws/THSS, plus the ancient. I see this functioning as a second wave to the reliable alpha strike units we have available.

 

With this combo you have 20 2+/5+ Wounds, and they hit really hard re rolling hits due to th ancient aura, and of course red thirst, which is pretty great for lightning claws.

 

I think this formation could make the archangels a reasonable choice, what do you think?

Edited December 5, 2017 by neonmole

[The Unseen]

I have been thinking about trying a couple of assault terminator units, combined with ancient with the FNP banner.

 

Approx 550pts gets you 2x5 Assault terms with a mix of claws/THSS, plus the ancient. I see this functioning as a second wave to the reliable alpha strike units we have available.

 

With this combo you have 20 2+/5+ Wounds, and they hit really hard re rolling hits due to th ancient aura, and of course red thirst, which is pretty great for lightning claws.

 

I think this formation could make the archangels a reasonable choice, what do you think?

Since we now have access, I recommend Cataphracti instead.

No hammers or storm shields, but native 4++, and the small movement penalty is something you can work around if they have a transport.

I'm thinking a unit of 7 with a mix of fists/claws and stormbolters, with an ancient in a land raider crusader, with the Raiders points drop in Chapter Approved, will make an incredible anvil, able to deal with bubble wrap with the crusaders hurricane bolters and assault cannons, along with the storm bolters from the termies, and let the Terminators tear something vital out.

[Brother Crimson]

Anybody tempted to use death vision of sanguinus on two different captains for scary damage output ? 

 

Like one with the Hammer of Baal and one with Artisan of war ?

 

This would make two potential hard-hitter that can one-shot monsters like carnifex or team up (or use stratagems) to kill a knight  + usual captain buff when needed.

 

Add in mephiston to the mix and we start to have some decent redundancy in monster hunters.

[Blindhamster]

By the way, for those interested, this is the facebook post I mentioned where I've put forward why BA should get power swords. I've a post on warhammer 40k facebook where I've put forward why BA should get access to power swords, the arguement mostly sits with the fact GW advertised the 30 year anniversary space marine as usable by all marines, but actually it isn't a legal model currently. They also highlighted in twitch that rules were there for all current models that can be built. Both the above statements are inaccurate as it stands.

I'd appreciate the support with likes/comments if possible.

I did also mention that I thought it would be easiest just to give both power sword and chainsword options to all marines - as the BA chainsword is 100% generic and codex marines should have the option too.

 

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1933494253637871&id=1575682476085719&comment_id=1933646593622637&reply_comment_id=1935251656795464

Edited December 6, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Charlo]

Echoed your thoughts.

 

Just giving a 5 man squad a power sword would make them very attractive.

[MeltaRange]

To me, The Red Thirst really brings the advantages of Primaris (esp Intercessors) to the forefront, whereas the Chapter Tactics for vanilla marines are kinda meh for them IMO. It makes them a true dual threat and adds another viable trade for the jack of all trades. With a Power Sword it would be really good. You have an 18pt model with 3A -3AP hitting on 3s wounding on as good as 2s against many other infantry units.

 

When you combine The Thirst with their innate resilience, price reduction to 9 pts a wound, plus the extra resilience offered by the relic banner, I think you get a very strong (in a non-'Bobby G strong' kinda way) army built on flexible mid field control and ultra strong HQ. Really the cheese here tho is including the extremely strong characters like Mephiston, Chaplain Dreads, Librarian Dreads, The Sanguinor, Death Company Captain w/ Hammer of Baal, etc...since these guys can honestly merk almost anything in the game and can happily walk (or fly on mystical wings) up the board behind a meat shield of 40+ wounds rocking a 3+/5+FNP.  I'm already salivating about a turn 3 Mephiston 7" move + 12" fly + charge w/ Quickening & Red Rampage strategem from mid-board into some expensive character or knight and absolutely obliterating it.  Or how about the fact that a charging Chaplain Dreadnought has a pretty decent chance to one shot a Knight with some buffs and a warlord trait.

 

I think if you take a look at like the army the Blood Angels player brought in that Tabletop Tactics video someone referenced, the problem with bringing an "all my eggs in DC and SG alpha units" is summarized by watching it.

 

At the end of the day, is this list winning the LVO? Probably not. I guess that's the point of this thread so at the end of the day this is a bit OT.

[CrimsonExarch]

 

To me, The Red Thirst really brings the advantages of Primaris (esp Intercessors) to the forefront, whereas the Chapter Tactics for vanilla marines are kinda meh for them IMO. It makes them a true dual threat and adds another viable trade for the jack of all trades. With a Power Sword it would be really good. You have an 18pt model with 3A -3AP hitting on 3s wounding on as good as 2s against many other infantry units.

 

When you combine The Thirst with their innate resilience, price reduction to 9 pts a wound, plus the extra resilience offered by the relic banner, I think you get a very strong (in a non-'Bobby G strong' kinda way) army built on flexible mid field control and ultra strong HQ. Really the cheese here tho is including the extremely strong characters like Mephiston, Chaplain Dreads, Librarian Dreads, The Sanguinor, Death Company Captain w/ Hammer of Baal, etc...since these guys can honestly merk almost anything in the game and can happily walk (or fly on mystical wings) up the board behind a meat shield of 40+ wounds rocking a 3+/5+FNP.  I'm already salivating about a turn 3 Mephiston 7" move + 12" fly + charge w/ Quickening & Red Rampage strategem from mid-board into some expensive character or knight and absolutely obliterating it.  Or how about the fact that a charging Chaplain Dreadnought has a pretty decent chance to one shot a Knight with some buffs and a warlord trait.

 

I think if you take a look at like the army the Blood Angels player brought in that Tabletop Tactics video someone referenced, the problem with bringing an "all my eggs in DC and SG alpha units" is summarized by watching it.

 

At the end of the day, is this list winning the LVO? Probably not. I guess that's the point of this thread so at the end of the day this is a bit OT.

 

 

I agree with all your points but I do think BAs have the tools to compete at the top of tournaments, should people be willing to learn how to use them and take them to such events. As long as we can build lists around amassing a good number of CPs (2 batallions) then the BAs have some of the best alpha strikes in the game, very good screen clearing units and some of the most mobile units in the game thanks to "on wings of fire".

 

The difficulty for us will be working out the best skeleton for a competitive list. I sincerely hope this is doable without the necessity of "splashing" an AM detachment for CPs on the cheap. It would make my year to see a pure BA army make top 8 of a large scale event such as the LVO and such a feat is entirely possible now with the tools we have been given in our new book. We just have to make it happen.

[Karhedron]

Mastering co-ordination is going to the big thing for BA players due to the way our buffs work. Shooty armies can park a buff character near their heavy firepower units and know they are getting best value from both. In melee it is rather harder to get our bonuses stacked up. Using DoA is a prime example as you risk leaving your buffing characters behind on the charge. Forlorn Fury and Descent of Angels both provide mechanisms for pulling off Turn 1 charges if we wish but the challenge is going to be making the damage stick once we get there. Red Thirst will help for sure but some of our cool toys like the Sanguinor, Sanguinary Priest and the new Standard of Sacrifice need to be next to our units to do their job.

 

This means that for Sanguinary Guard, I think they will be restricted to more traditional deployment and usage. You will need to set them up for a charge the turn before, either by moving up behind a screening unit like a large vehicle or dropping down out of LOS.

 

Death Company have an easier time of it thanks to Lemartes. I think that a viable build will be to have 2 biggish units of DC with Jump Packs and Lemartes. One unit deploys normally and moves up before turn 1 with Forlorn Fury. The other unit Deep Strikes nearby and uses DoA to charge with Lemartes dropping in the middle to give both a charge reroll. Lemartes can reroll his own charge giving him a 48% chance of reaching combat, even without spending CPs. If he does not make it, you can daisy chain a few models from each squad so they are still in Lemartes aura to reroll hits. This little lot costs ~600 points assuming 10-man DC squads with a couple of upgrades and should quite reliably get 2 hitty units into combat on Turn 1. The question then becomes what to back it up with. We really need Troops for CPs and ObjSec as well as lascannons for tank busting (DC Fists and Hammers are good but aren't always going to be where you need them to hit that stubborn tank). Batallion + Vanguard only gives 7 CPs but might be enough.

 

Battalion

HQ

129 Lemartes

132 Librarian with Force Axe and Angel's wing

 

Troops

90 5 x Intercessors

90 5 x Intercessors

132 10 Scouts with CCWs + Sergeant with power fist (I built this squad years ago and it looks fun with Red Thirst)

 

Vanguard

86 HQ Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack

 

Elites

232 10 DC with Jump Packs 2 Power fists, 2 power swords

232 10 DC with Jump Packs 2 Power fists, 2 power swords

99 Sanguinary Guard Ancient with Standard of Sacrifice

245 7 Sanguinary Guard

 

1461 Total and 7CPs

 

If you are building a 2000 point list, that leaves 500+ points for some anti-tank. You could even turn the Vanguard into a second Battalion with another HQ. The Librarian is another unit who can drop and charge without CPs thanks to Wings and Quickening. He is pretty much guaranteed the charge if he gets 1 power off. If he manages both, he will be able to leap over chaff and target vital units deep in the enemy deployment zone.

[Remtek]

Tried 2 games with the new rules now, i might be wrong here, but i feel like 12 CP is a minimum even with veritas. You can easily blow off 5 CP on a libby in one around and it being justified.

 

A few post impressions

 

- Going very heavy on assault is difficult against players who deploy well. It's so important that our elite stuff does something significant before they die. 

- Need a solid firebase 

- Hard to keep support chars alive if they drop with DoA assaulters

- 2 scouts units is a bare minimum to block scout moves and pre battle infiltrators (Alpha legion, Stygies viii, rangers etc) so you can land in more juicy targets

- We are more CP hungry than CSM

- The libbies are abolute beasts with d3 attack strat combined exploding sixes strat and fighting twice. 

- Forlorn fury is really awkward when going last,  id like the option of forlorning  behind a los block if i go last, then gating them later, but thats 3 cps to keep them alive. I think the forlorn units might be best with only chainswords and hand flamers/bolters cause vs good players you will only be clearing chaff/speed bumps with them.

[Semirhagge]

relooking over the requirements for a Brigade Detachment and it looks like everything we want anyways. Did Baal Preds get any cheaper?

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Tried 2 games with the new rules now, i might be wrong here, but i feel like 12 CP is a minimum even with veritas. You can easily blow off 5 CP on a libby in one around and it being justified.

 

A few post impressions

 

- Going very heavy on assault is difficult against players who deploy well. It's so important that our elite stuff does something significant before they die. 

- Need a solid firebase 

- Hard to keep support chars alive if they drop with DoA assaulters

- 2 scouts units is a bare minimum to block scout moves and pre battle infiltrators (Alpha legion, Stygies viii, rangers etc) so you can land in more juicy targets

- We are more CP hungry than CSM

- The libbies are abolute beasts with d3 attack strat combined exploding sixes strat and fighting twice. 

- Forlorn fury is really awkward when going last,  id like the option of forlorning  behind a los block if i go last, then gating them later, but thats 3 cps to keep them alive. I think the forlorn units might be best with only chainswords and hand flamers/bolters cause vs good players you will only be clearing chaff/speed bumps with them.

This is what I was fearing. We will struggle out of the gates and more so when all other codex are released in 6 months time.