Competitive BA list discussion *Post-Codex*

[Blindhamster]

I think a descent of angels elite assault unit would actually be better deployed mid game when other assault elements (including characters) have moved up the table.

 

Deathcompany forlorn stratagem iw a first turn thing, save descent for when you can make it count most.

 

Just because we CAN alpha strike, doesn't mean that it should be our core strategy all the time

[Pendent]

I think a descent of angels elite assault unit would actually be better deployed mid game when other assault elements (including characters) have moved up the table.

 

Deathcompany forlorn stratagem iw a first turn thing, save descent for when you can make it count most.

 

Just because we CAN alpha strike, doesn't mean that it should be our core strategy all the time

 

I'm much more excited about playing a fairly balanced army that has a really nasty punch than any of these turn 1 assault concepts I see floating around. I definitely agree that you're going to get a lot more use out of Sanguinary Guard or something if you give your opponent a chance to spread out a bit and not be able to shoot their entire army at your expensive unit after it wipes out the charge target.

[brother_b]

I think trying for a first turn charge with DC or jump pack SG is not the thing we should be doing.

 

I think we need to put down our shooty gun line (in cover), and buff them with captain/dante/Lt. Allow the gun line to soften things up, possibly the area you want your JP to land.

 

From turn 2-3 make your decision where to strike. Drop in your bombs (SG, DC with lemartes, etc). Re-position your jump pack buffer (dante/captain/lt.). Profit from the destruction.

 

There's a lot of options. A distraction DC dread or two placed first turn will allow your gun line to fire with impunity. A rhino or razorback with some DC/AM etc rushing up the table is another distraction option.

 

Anyway, I'm really thinking this way as opposed to pushing my 15 man DC assault first turn.

[Indefragable]

What Blindhamster said.

 

There are so many variables in the game. A wise opponent will know our tricks after a game or two. So rather than trying to push a broken down car up a hill, let’s think about changing the flat tire so we can drive it up the hill instead.

 

Descent of Angels, Forlorn, etc... are all tools in the toolbox: we don’t need to use them, nor every game. Think about TAC lists where you give yourself the option to have that DC bomb in the enemy’s face T1...OR coming down to nuke an objective T3 (don’t forget you can Wings of Fire Lemartes into position to help a Descent of Angels DC unit come in later in the game).

 

Never underestimate the psychological effect of 15x screaming mad men who can charge 3D6” at your leisure being held in Reserve.

[MeltaRange]

Tried 2 games with the new rules now, i might be wrong here, but i feel like 12 CP is a minimum even with veritas. You can easily blow off 5 CP on a libby in one around and it being justified.

 

A few post impressions

 

- Going very heavy on assault is difficult against players who deploy well. It's so important that our elite stuff does something significant before they die. 

- Need a solid firebase 

- Hard to keep support chars alive if they drop with DoA assaulters

- 2 scouts units is a bare minimum to block scout moves and pre battle infiltrators (Alpha legion, Stygies viii, rangers etc) so you can land in more juicy targets

- We are more CP hungry than CSM

- The libbies are abolute beasts with d3 attack strat combined exploding sixes strat and fighting twice. 

- Forlorn fury is really awkward when going last,  id like the option of forlorning  behind a los block if i go last, then gating them later, but thats 3 cps to keep them alive. I think the forlorn units might be best with only chainswords and hand flamers/bolters cause vs good players you will only be clearing chaff/speed bumps with them.

 

Just a great post here.  Thank you for this.  Points 1-3 especially just seem so true to me. 

 

Point 3 I think is going to be a very harsh reality for people here who dream about dropping that 10 man SG unit + Ancient + Sanguinor or whatever and blowing someone up.  The way it actually works in an "in game" scenario is that the support characters can't make the charge and are completely open to be countercharged or shot to pieces.  More and more I'm leaning towards a core mid field element with lots of Troops + Combat Monster HQs, some backline units to provide long range firepower, and then min sized units of JP infantry that fill specific roles and eat up the majority of the CP my double battalion generates.

 

I also really, really like the idea of a cheap DC unit that is the target of the Forlorn strat to try and clear screens.  In other scenarios it could even be used as a mobile overwatch sponge against something nasty like Hellblasters.  I am absolutely stealing that one.

 

Overall, I think these delivery systems are absolutely awesome, but gearing up an uber unit and saying "I'm always going to make that the target of Forlorn/Descent" pigeon holes you into a game plan that's too rigid; rather, I'd have say 3 units of 5 DC in specialized roles and deploy them as appropriate.

[MeltaRange]

After some consideration, this is what I'm thinking about to start for my 2k list.  Things will likely change a bit but the concepts are there.  Likely I will want some Assault Squads with Meltaguns in there. (Wings of Fire makes these things absolutely fantastic)

 

1988 points

10 CP

 

Battalion 1

HQ: Mephiston    

HQ: Chaplain Dreadnought Multi-Melta; Dreadnought CCW; Storm Bolter

Tr: 5 Intercessors Assault Bolt Rifle; Chainsword

Tr: 5 Intercessors Assault Bolt Rifle; Chainsword

Tr: 5 Intercessors Assault Bolt Rifle; Chainsword

El: Terminator Ancient Lightning Claw; Banner of Sacrifice

 

Battalion 2

HQ: Primaris Captain Master-Crafted Stalker; Power Sword

HQ: Primaris Lieutenant Power Sword

Tr: 5 Intercessors Bolt Rifle; Chainsword

Tr: 5 Scouts 5x Boltgun

Tr: 5 Scouts 5x Boltgun

Hvy: Predator Twin Lascannon; 2x Lascannon

Hvy: Predator Predator Autocannon; 2x Lascannon

 

Vanguard

HQ: Captain Jump Pack; Storm Shield; Thunder Hammer

El: 5 Death Company 5x Boltgun; 5x Chainsword

El: 5 Death Company 5x Boltgun; 5x Power Axe

El: 5 Death Company 5x Boltgun; 5x Power Fist

 

 

One thing to note is that the Captain is meant to work independently from the DC for the most part.  He can remain as is, or he could potentially be buffed to the moon with the Death Visions, Gift of Foresight, Hammer of Baal, and even Forlorn Fury (or any combination therein)

Edited December 6, 2017 by MeltaRange

[Indefragable]

Scouts are all the more important, IMO. Deploy them first in no-man’s land to clear a lane for the Forlorn DC to power forward in.

 

“But then the enemy just deploys on the other side of the map from the DC unit.”

 

Exactly. Right into the LoS of that firebase ;)

 

1. Scouts to own middle ground and dictate paths of movement

2. Enough dakka to sweep a chaff unit or two out of the way of the DC

3. DC do what DC do

4. Meanwhile, his guts are being ripped out from the rear by that Descent of Angels unit that came in T2 and your other units are capping midfield objectives.

 

Profit?

Edited December 6, 2017 by Indefragable

[Panzer]

Just keep in mind that if another Space Marine player with Scouts or a T'au player with Stealth Suits goes first he can deploy his infiltrating unit first central on the board and deny a lot of infiltration space for your Scouts.

[tychobi]

I'm gonna chime in with a repetitive comment about aura buffs for melee purposes. Not worth.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

I am also a fan of a more traditional approach.

There is decidedly going to be a time where you have to wait for the enemy to come to you and not just Garryowen across the field as the plan.

So fire support units will open I think for me as the list building plan instead of trying to make a rather small wave assault the plan.

Leveraging our superior mobility units to send over a slower developing assault as things... develop. That is my current plan.

 

I feel you cannot rely on CQC to deal with enemy transports with assault forces inside either for instance.

You all to often have to be able to dance while you crack enemy vehicles vs mounted enemy assault units of similar power etc.

Sure you can punch the transport open... The forces disembarking then eat your face on their turn in my experience.

If you lack fire support you are in trouble I feel.

 

It has been pointed out that keeping the option for a rapid charge but not making it the master plan is a good idea - I agree.

 

I think I will be doing it with a Captain not a 15 man blob of DC myself. - because points and synergy in my opinion.

I can aura buff and if the enemy presents an opening I have the option to have a vision of the primarch and forlorn fury the Capt.

If there is not a good opening ... I havent got 15 guys awaiting orders and have spent the points on other things =)

 

The captain can buff a modest line of firepower for instance.

He can be launched with an assault force later - mulitrole.

He can make an effective opportunity charge as needed.

 

I am planning that out the gate.

 

Anyhow that is what I am thinking I would use those death company strats for myself right now.

[brother_b]

It's easier to hide a DC dread than a full compliment of 15 DC. Why not forlorn fury that guy super far, pushing him into your opponents "comfort" zone? They'll have to deal with him. If you lose 1st turn then he'll die, but they'll still have to focus on him. If you get first turn, hopefully you've moved into charge range.

[Silverson]

In an attempt to bring more command points to the table I'm going to go buy 3 units of scouts tomorrow.does anyone have a lot of experance with them as to which load out to choose?

 

I'm not going for sniper scouts because I have long ranged units covered so it between

 

Boltgun

Bolt pistol, combat blade

Shotgun

[Brother apocalyptic]

It's easier to hide a DC dread than a full compliment of 15 DC. Why not forlorn fury that guy super far, pushing him into your opponents "comfort" zone? They'll have to deal with him. If you lose 1st turn then he'll die, but they'll still have to focus on him. If you get first turn, hopefully you've moved into charge range.

Easy, you cant use the stratagem on the dread as its infantry only.

[brother_b]

 

It's easier to hide a DC dread than a full compliment of 15 DC. Why not forlorn fury that guy super far, pushing him into your opponents "comfort" zone? They'll have to deal with him. If you lose 1st turn then he'll die, but they'll still have to focus on him. If you get first turn, hopefully you've moved into charge range.

Easy, you cant use the stratagem on the dread as its infantry only.

 

Oh, bummer. OK there goes that thinking.

[Jolemai]

Yup, either you proxy a Lucius Drop Pod or take a Stormraven to get the DCD (or any combat Dreadnought for that matter) up close. This hasn't changed with the edition.

[9x19 Parabellum]

In an attempt to bring more command points to the table I'm going to go buy 3 units of scouts tomorrow.does anyone have a lot of experance with them as to which load out to choose?

 

I'm not going for sniper scouts because I have long ranged units covered so it between

 

Boltgun

Bolt pistol, combat blade

Shotgun

 

With our Red Thirst, I think you sorta kinda gotta go with pistol and blade, personally.

[MeltaRange]

 

 

It's easier to hide a DC dread than a full compliment of 15 DC. Why not forlorn fury that guy super far, pushing him into your opponents "comfort" zone? They'll have to deal with him. If you lose 1st turn then he'll die, but they'll still have to focus on him. If you get first turn, hopefully you've moved into charge range.

Easy, you cant use the stratagem on the dread as its infantry only.

 

Oh, bummer. OK there goes that thinking.

 

 

You can still use it on a Jump Pack Captain, albeit with some CP usage. (Death Visions) I think that's a pretty interesting choice personally.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

In an attempt to bring more command points to the table I'm going to go buy 3 units of scouts tomorrow.does anyone have a lot of experance with them as to which load out to choose?

 

I'm not going for sniper scouts because I have long ranged units covered so it between

 

Boltgun

Bolt pistol, combat blade

Shotgun

 

Pistols and blade do go well with Red Thirst *nod

 

Personally, I would build be one of each.

I believe they all 3 have a very good role still.

Glue lightly so you can pick your favorite later.

Magnets are possible tho a kinda crappy option in my opinion. (I hate things moving around on my infantry and also losing things myself)

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Yup, either you proxy a Lucius Drop Pod or take a Stormraven to get the DCD (or any combat Dreadnought for that matter) up close. This hasn't changed with the edition.

 

I think I am gonna walk mine with a transport of fellas like back in the day.

He has the slighty better mobility for it, so should not get left behind.

 

Hope to apply pressure, apply pressure and screw with targetting attention.

Should be a spectacle - either way it works out. =)

Edited December 6, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Indefragable]

I have learned that the trick with Scouts is not to get attachéd to them. Morbid as it may be, their role is to die airbag more expensive units may live. As such, Red Thirst is not, I have to lean towards bolter Scouts. They are the utilitarian unit of the whole bunch and have such a wonderfully defined role that it boosts your brain power for other tasks.

 

That being said, I think any of the varieties (including snipers) can work as well as your plan for them.

[CrimsonExarch]

I have learned that the trick with Scouts is not to get attachéd to them. Morbid as it may be, their role is to die airbag more expensive units may live. As such, Red Thirst is not, I have to lean towards bolter Scouts. They are the utilitarian unit of the whole bunch and have such a wonderfully defined role that it boosts your brain power for other tasks.

 

That being said, I think any of the varieties (including snipers) can work as well as your plan for them.

 

I also feel bolters are best for them. It makes them more useful at helping to clear screens. 

[brother_b]

For aggressive scouts I've used blades and shotguns. The shotguns are very powerful up close (obviously). If you're going to be a moving speedbump I suggest using them. I have yet to use the bolter scouts. I've got some completed, just haven't painted or played with them yet. I am a fan of large squads of snipers. I guess they're expensive in a points game, but for 10 PL I feel they're great. I recently built a missile launcher and heavy bolter so can add them to the mix of my stationary scouts.

 

I'm also looking to get a land speeder storm. I love the idea of dropping shotgun/CC scouts in close to the enemy.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I have learned that the trick with Scouts is not to get attachéd to them. Morbid as it may be, their role is to die airbag more expensive units may live. As such, Red Thirst is not, I have to lean towards bolter Scouts. They are the utilitarian unit of the whole bunch and have such a wonderfully defined role that it boosts your brain power for other tasks.

 

That being said, I think any of the varieties (including snipers) can work as well as your plan for them.

 

Yeah mine usually die super fast, my scout bikers almost always die turn 1... I can't make 4+ saves (ever). :)

 

Looks like Snipers (and cloaks) went up in price a bit too, so I'm thinking Bolters are the best too.

[TheHarrower]

Made some tweaks to my initial list. Here is where I'm at. Playing a few people on Saturday. I'm worried it's a tad too assault heavy, but I do have a lot of threats on the board to hopefully split my opponents fire. I really like the idea of splitting up Dev Squads. Let's you double up on the Signum so I always have 2 Lascannons hitting on a 2+. Really not sold on the Warlord Trait, but I think Artisan of War or Visions of Sanguinus is where it's at. I do like the idea of a -3 Power Sword doing a flat 2 damage. Not sure on the Veritas Vitae, but I guess if I start with 6 Command Points I should make at least that one back.

 

BATTALION

HQ
Warlord - Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack, Power Sword, Bolt Pistol, Angel's Wing, Artisan of War
Librarian w/ Jump Pack, Force Sword, Bolt Pistol, Veritas Vitae

TROOPS
5 Tactical Marines w/ Lascannon, Storm Bolter
5 Scouts w/ Snipers
5 Scouts w/ Bolt Pistol, Combat Blade

HEAVY
5 Devastators w/ 2 Lascannons, Heavy Bolter, Cherub
5 Devastators w/ 1 Lascannon, Heavy Bolter, Cherub

VANGUARD

HQ
Mephiston

ELITES
10 Vanguard Veterans w/ Jump Pack, 1 Relic Blade, 3 Storm Shields, 2 Power Swords, 7 Dual Chainswords
10 Death Company w/ Jump Pack, 1 Thunder Hammer, 1 Power Axe, Bolters, Chainswords
Death Company Dreadnought w/ Blood Talons, Storm Bolter, Meltagun

FAST ATTACK
5 Assault Marines w/ Jump Pack, 1 Power Axe, 1 Hand Flamer, Melta Bombs, 2 Meltaguns

FLYER
Stormraven w/ AssCans, Melta, Hurricane Bolters

2,000 Points - 6 Command Points (spent 1 pre-battle to have 2 Relics)

 

Thoughts?

[Brother Crimson]

 

 

I have learned that the trick with Scouts is not to get attachéd to them. Morbid as it may be, their role is to die airbag more expensive units may live. As such, Red Thirst is not, I have to lean towards bolter Scouts. They are the utilitarian unit of the whole bunch and have such a wonderfully defined role that it boosts your brain power for other tasks.

 

That being said, I think any of the varieties (including snipers) can work as well as your plan for them.

Yeah mine usually die super fast, my scout bikers almost always die turn 1... I can't make 4+ saves (ever). :)

 

Looks like Snipers (and cloaks) went up in price a bit too, so I'm thinking Bolters are the best too.

They are still 11+4+3

 

It is just that now intercessor have the same cost