Black Library Advent Calendar 2017

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

 

As a near life long Chaos player...it was always justified.

 

That is what the older fluff always supported.

 

I mean that is why authors like ADB appeal to many of us, he takes the same concepts and discussion points that we have been hashing out for decades and provides context around those events.

 

i always got that impression too...that there were always justifications for their rebellion and that's part of the tragedy. none of it was black and white. if anything, horus' heel turn in false gods undermined that aspect.

And I'm going to say that providing more justification to traitors is not worth sacrificing the idea that the original incarnation of Imperium was something worth preserving and that the loyalist have been right to stand in its defence.

 

The destruction of the original Imperium was supposed to be tragic. It was not supposed to be competition to make it so bad, miserable and poorly thought out that the follow up seems like a bloody improvement.

sure, i get that

 

but does one short story undermine that whole premise? or does it just add more flavour for those who want it?

 

 

The problem is that it isn't just a one short story. This is a continuation of a trend that has appeared in multiple BL stories, both novels and shorts. And there is nothing that really contradicts it.

 

It got to the point where I genuinely cannot think of the last story that made me think "Yeah, there is something worth fighting for here!".

 

At this rate, the only reaction BL will get to the Emperor being enthroned will be "Good riddance, you are more useful as silent battery, you arsehole.". Yes, what a tragic end to a great figure. I might shed a tear. Pah.

 

 

maybe it's the mix of books i've read or my selective memory, but i thought there were plenty of "the emprah is lit" in the hh series as well?

 

either way, i know there's a thread through this short, MoM and dark imperium (and even then, the priest throws confusion on guilliman's certainty about dad) that leans towards your gripe, but i probably don't mind because they gel with my long formed impression of him. ever since the index astartes and ian watson's books, i always saw the emperor as an arsehole... but that arsehole was still humanity's best chance.

 

there's tragedy there, even if i wouldn't personally want to come over for tea and scones at emp's crib

[Marshal Rohr]

It’s not a matter of being an :cuss. It’s like this, who is better: Palpatine or Napoleon?

 

Both are despots, but Napoleon was trying to achieve something valuable. Palpatine was just, technically, a religious extremist.

 

On the other hand, the Master of Mankind shows the Emperor as a Napoleon. The insinuation he might’ve made the Primarchs as tools isn’t a big deal, when viewed the way Napoleon viewed Lannes or Ney or Davout, etc. He wept when Lannes died, and chewed him out and ignored him when he failed. The Emperor might be like that. We see him when he’s mad. We’ve never once seen the Emperor interact with a Primarch when times aren’t :cuss and the world is falling apart.

 

 

The story as presented in Malcador’s short move a bean into the Palpatine column (before arbitrarily removing the bean). We need some stories to put beans in the Napoleon column.

[Scribe]

I personally don't need any Napoleon beans. We have more then enough examples to prove that the Great Crusade Emperor is an unmitigated tyrant, and utterly inhuman.

 

If the emperor could have sacrificed 99% of humanity if it ensured the remaining 1% would rise to prominence, he would do so.

 

That's not an Emperor I would follow.

[mc warhammer]

i really like the term “napoleon beans”

[Sete]

I personally don't need any Napoleon beans. We have more then enough examples to prove that the Great Crusade Emperor is an unmitigated tyrant, and utterly inhuman.

 

If the emperor could have sacrificed 99% of humanity if it ensured the remaining 1% would rise to prominence, he would do so.

 

That's not an Emperor I would follow.

If the other option was annihilation, would your decision be the same? Slave to malignant gods or Xenos?

[bluntblade]

Well personally, if the other option was pitching back into the Age of Strife and eventually all dying to have our souls chewed up by daemons, Emperor all the way.

[Ascanius]

I personally don't need any Napoleon beans. We have more then enough examples to prove that the Great Crusade Emperor is an unmitigated tyrant, and utterly inhuman.

 

If the emperor could have sacrificed 99% of humanity if it ensured the remaining 1% would rise to prominence, he would do so.

 

That's not an Emperor I would follow.

 

Yeah, that's . . . that's right. The Emperor's not a hero. He's not a good guy. He's not a saviour.

 

The Imperium believes he is, but they're Insane Space Fascist Fanatics; why would you see things their way?

 

The Emperor was never a benevolent visionary who only conquered the galaxy because it was humanity's only hope of survival.

 

Anyone who's into 40K because they believe the Imperium are the good guys, even compromised good guys, is barking up the wrong timeline.

 

When people say "The Imperium is awful, but it's the only way that humanity can survive," I always feel like that should be followed up by "because the Imperium's wrecked things so badly for humanity that this is so."

[rendingon1+]

They are the good guys because they are human. I'am human too. I symphatize with my species.

Xenos want to wipe out or enslave humans. Humans want all xenos dead.

I choose humanity side. So they are good guys.

[Fire Golem]

A few xenos want to wipe out or enslave humanity. The majority were fine with being left alone. Humanity made no distinction between the two.

[cheywood]

Not to change the subject but I just read RobMac's A Brother's Confession and it's a rather enjoyable description of the Primaris. The story as a whole didn't awe me, but it contains some fantastic descriptions of an Apothecary's duties in the heat of battle and seems like a good lead-in to Blood of Iax.

[rendingon1+]

Ok, please provide a list of known xenos species + their view on Humanity

 

Also it's like saying: "Yes, Orks mayby would destroy Imperium one day if they could, but hey, they are just Orks there are thousands of species that wanted to be left alone".

Edited December 17, 2017 by rendingon1+

[Calas Typhon]

All xenos should be purged tbh. The Imperium of mankind only has its own interests at heart, why care about Xenos? Allowing them to live Is like a bear allowing a boar to eat up its food and breed just outside of its cave. 

 

Humanity > Chaos > Xenos scum

[Scribe]

 

I personally don't need any Napoleon beans. We have more then enough examples to prove that the Great Crusade Emperor is an unmitigated tyrant, and utterly inhuman.

 

If the emperor could have sacrificed 99% of humanity if it ensured the remaining 1% would rise to prominence, he would do so.

 

That's not an Emperor I would follow.

If the other option was annihilation, would your decision be the same? Slave to malignant gods or Xenos?

There are examples of Chaos leaning cultures that are no worse than the Imperium, there are examples even in Old Night, of Cultures existing that were not Imperial.

 

And if it came down to eternity of suffering and slavery to the Imperium and Ignorance, or going out fighting with a chance for freedom?

 

Well you are dead regardless, fight to be free.

[Sete]

Freedom? That freedom was eternal damnation.

[RobMac]

 

 

I personally don't need any Napoleon beans. We have more then enough examples to prove that the Great Crusade Emperor is an unmitigated tyrant, and utterly inhuman.

 

If the emperor could have sacrificed 99% of humanity if it ensured the remaining 1% would rise to prominence, he would do so.

 

That's not an Emperor I would follow.

If the other option was annihilation, would your decision be the same? Slave to malignant gods or Xenos?

There are examples of Chaos leaning cultures that are no worse than the Imperium, there are examples even in Old Night, of Cultures existing that were not Imperial.

 

And if it came down to eternity of suffering and slavery to the Imperium and Ignorance, or going out fighting with a chance for freedom?

 

Well you are dead regardless, fight to be free.

 

There are also Imperial worlds that do just fine, some that offer an even better quality of life than Earth does today. I think the ratio of good-to-bad favours the Imperium over Chaos pretty easily. 

 

That being said it's a lot easier to say Chaos is bad when we're looking at it with full knowledge of the subject from outside the setting. 

[DarkChaplain]

Not to change the subject but I just read RobMac's A Brother's Confession and it's a rather enjoyable description of the Primaris. The story as a whole didn't awe me, but it contains some fantastic descriptions of an Apothecary's duties in the heat of battle and seems like a good lead-in to Blood of Iax.

 

Not to change the topic? You're probably the only one ON topic in pages.

Looking forward to reading another RobMac short, personally.

[bluntblade]

The initial mess was because of a Dark Age that spanned almost as long as recorded history so far.

 

Chaos means that every xenos species is a potential threat. Nothing can be left alone by the Crusade.

Edited December 17, 2017 by bluntblade

[cheywood]

 

 

Not to change the subject but I just read RobMac's A Brother's Confession and it's a rather enjoyable description of the Primaris. The story as a whole didn't awe me, but it contains some fantastic descriptions of an Apothecary's duties in the heat of battle and seems like a good lead-in to Blood of Iax.

Not to change the topic? You're probably the only one ON topic in pages.

Looking forward to reading another RobMac short, personally.

You make a good point there.

 

The short's great. It felt a little rushed for the first couple pages, but it gets into some great detail about the function of apothecaries and ends with a nicely evocative analogy.

[Scribe]

Freedom? That freedom was eternal damnation.

Well, if we want to get technical, all souls go to the warp, everything is eternally damned. :p

 

And yes RobMac, I'm sure that the ration favours the imperium as 'good', but the fiction hardly focus' on that.

[Skullier]

 

 

 

I personally don't need any Napoleon beans. We have more then enough examples to prove that the Great Crusade Emperor is an unmitigated tyrant, and utterly inhuman.

 

If the emperor could have sacrificed 99% of humanity if it ensured the remaining 1% would rise to prominence, he would do so.

 

That's not an Emperor I would follow.

If the other option was annihilation, would your decision be the same? Slave to malignant gods or Xenos?

There are examples of Chaos leaning cultures that are no worse than the Imperium, there are examples even in Old Night, of Cultures existing that were not Imperial.

 

And if it came down to eternity of suffering and slavery to the Imperium and Ignorance, or going out fighting with a chance for freedom?

 

Well you are dead regardless, fight to be free.

 

There are also Imperial worlds that do just fine, some that offer an even better quality of life than Earth does today. I think the ratio of good-to-bad favours the Imperium over Chaos pretty easily. 

 

That being said it's a lot easier to say Chaos is bad when we're looking at it with full knowledge of the subject from outside the setting. 

 

But that sort of just returns to the problem of removing all ambiguity or depth to the setting and just saying 'one side is right all other sides are wrong' which sounds boring and very unlike what I assumed 40k was. This would mean there are good guys, rather than the common 'there are no good guys', by just saying the Imperium is right kill everyone else even if they aren't hostile like the Diasporex. This basically just turns them into Mary Sues then who are right about everything if Chaos is just out-and-out worse then them. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The point RobMac is making is going to be very difficult to explain in a snippet in a thread about another topic.

[Sete]

Rob Mac needs to write Templars. Do it. Do it nao

 

Also Ultramarines nyet.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Sete

[bluntblade]

Yeah Rob, seen any of those posts suggesting a book set after That Thing That Happens over Cadia? Pretty please. I'll buy you chocolates.

[RobMac]

Rob Mac needs to write Templars. Do it. Do it nao

 

Also Ultramarines nyet.

They are super-cool, and I recently re-read Helsreach, plus it seems I do love pushing back that Imperial Guard novel I want to write with countless other novels, so who knows?

 

 

Yeah Rob, seen any of those posts suggesting a book set after That Thing That Happens over Cadia? Pretty please. I'll buy you chocolates.

As in, post Fall of Cadia or am I missing something?

Edited December 17, 2017 by RobMac

[Ascanius]

Not everything about the Imperium is terrible, obviously, and I'm not saying a galaxy dominated by Chaos would be good, but to me it's like asking if I'd rather die from one terrible wasting disease versus another, more drawn-out wasting disease.

 

Edit: Also, my argument is that the Imperium is responsible for humanity's current situation. For instance, there'd be no Legions of Chaos Space Marines if there weren't Space Marines in the first place. Obviously Chaos is a threat, but the Emperor's hubris made Chaos up its game and created the eternal stalemate.

Edited December 17, 2017 by mhacdebhandia