How would Sanguinius's return be explained?

[Urriak Urruk]

If they wanted to pursue the Christian themes of the BA to their logical conclusion, Sanguinius resurrecting would actually seem almost inevitable.

 

I suppose the Horus Heresy series will dictate how likely such a thing is, depending on how Sanguinius' death is portrayed. Having said that, there's scenes in ADB's Black Legion series indicating that the Talon of Horus is soaked with the psychic residue of Sanguinius' death, to the point that Khayon is disturbed simply being in its presence.

 

I do like the idea that the Sanguinor (sp?) or whatever it is is some sort of manifestation of Sanguinius. I could see if they wanted to go that route, GW could release an updated model and rules making it a bit more Primarch-esque in size and abilities.

 

Yeah, if Sanguinius was resurrected for only two days  

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Sanguinor is simply a Sanguinary Guard used as a substitute for the Primarch.

[MrBadweed]

 I have a Theory about Sanguinius.

 

It's based on the statement of several HH authors that events during the Heresy and Siege did not happen exactly like the established lore.

 

Basically the Lore is an " unreliable narrator".

 

So this is what we know :

 

- Sangui was plagued with doubts/fears due to his bloody wings and their possibly chaotic nature.

- Powerful latent/active ? Psyker.

- We know he is sometimes plagues by doubts/even temptation ( Imperium Secundus and the Board is set short story )

- He and Horus were superpals.

- Sangui "died" on the Vengeful Spirit.

- It happened before Big E arrived on the Bridge.

 

My take on the events, taking into account Sangui's " In stasis bad Shape" :

 

He arrived before E-money on the bridge of the Vengeful spirit, had a heartfelt " Buut whyyy ?" chat with Horus, and doubted/was tempted. Big E arrived at that moment, saw the doubt/temptation ( even just a flash of it) on Sangui's face/aura/etc, had a " hell naw, i aint got time for that" moment and blasted him. Then big match with Horus, yada yada yada, Golden Chair, only war, Grimdark.

 

Sangui''s placed into is sarcophagus, nobody knows about the doubt but him/ Big E and maybe Dorn/select fiew. He could have been healed but the risk is too great, so they pass him as dead and he's drained of blood and other grimblood bloodsheananigans. The Blood Angels are Needed for the Scouring, and this aint the time for treason part 2.The Black Rage is thus not caused by his blood/genetic defects, but by his guilt at having doubted projected to his sons via psychic nightmares. Same for the Sanguinor, latent stuff but the noblebright part.

 

In my mind this would be one of the best explanations for him not being dead :

 

- He didnt Betray. He Doubted. Did it at the wrong time and place though and got blasted, there is no stain on his Legion. They have no clue about it.

- It got covered up for practical/crisis reasons. Errybody loved the Flyguy, him doubting/turning would be a publicity nightmare for the post-HH Imperium.

- Lies, untruths and Grim darkness.

- Explains the " stasis and bad shape" twitch thing.

- New Model yay ?

 

Anyways Watcha think ?

[beefeb]

I heard one a while back....all of the dead primarchs and great space marines heroes spirits that go into the warp when they are killed can return at times of great need.....ie the legion of the damned.  Now, bearing in mind its fantasy science fiction, which by definition means anything can happen, whats to stop them (somehow) repairing the damage done to his physical body during the attack on Horus barge and then through some other plotline the soul/spirit that had been roaming the warp is able to return to their physical vessel and be reborn.

 

Same can be done with Ferrus and the clonebodies created, and in fact any dead primarch.

[Lord_Caerolion]

There's also a whole branch of the Inquisition based on finding a suitable "host" for the Emperor to either possess or reincarnate into, the Thorians (and, to a lesser extent, their heretical forebears, the Horusians). If it's possible for the Emperor to be reincarnated, it could be possible for the same to be done for Sanguinius.

[Urriak Urruk]

There's also a whole branch of the Inquisition based on finding a suitable "host" for the Emperor to either possess or reincarnate into, the Thorians (and, to a lesser extent, their heretical forebears, the Horusians). If it's possible for the Emperor to be reincarnated, it could be possible for the same to be done for Sanguinius.

 

You would think they would have tried using Sany's body to resurrect Emps into!

[Snook]

Do not know if it was mentioned already but what about the vampiric part of the Blood Angels. It was always there since 2nd edition and could be a possibility for return of (perhaps dark) Sanguinius. Shifting the angelic part more towards the vampiric. 

 

After all it was mentiones that what Sanguinius sees as a flaw in himself and his sons was according to Cawl intended by the Emperor.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Snook

[b1soul]

I loved the ghoulish Sanguinius in Dornian Heresy

[D3L]

 

Sounds awful, almost GW Studio quality.

 

Probably will happen.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Emperor is definitely going to kill Sanguinius in the HH series. That’s what all the ‘Emperor doesn’t care’ fluff is setting up.

[A D-B]

The Emperor is definitely going to kill Sanguinius in the HH series. That’s what all the ‘Emperor doesn’t care’ fluff is setting up.

 

I guarantee you someone out there really believes that.

[MrDarth151]

 

The Emperor is definitely going to kill Sanguinius in the HH series. That’s what all the ‘Emperor doesn’t care’ fluff is setting up.

 

I guarantee you someone out there really believes that.

 

 

You will probably have a few dozens of people cheering at the mere thought of this idea being true, because they find Grimdark to be superior to any other theme.

 

On topic: I do not think that return of Sanguinius would be as lore breaking as people think. Nor do I believe it invalidates the thematic importance of his sacrifice.

 

And if someone is going to tell me it makes death meaningless within 40k lore, I'm going to argue that A) People have been brought back from the dead before, by both Chaos Gods and The Emperor, multiple times at that, and B) We already have a faction that's impossible to kill, they are called Chaos Daemons. If Khorne can bring back his Bloodthirsters every other week, Emps should get one Angel.

 

I definitely see a potential narrative there.

[shandwen]

Well, when the Talon of Horus gets smashed by Russ then Sangunius' sport will be released to re-join the Sanguinor and bring him back.

[Scribe]

I'll never understand the need to change things from what they are, when those things have been good for decades.

 

Sanguinus has purpose in being dead. There is no need to revert or change the circumstances around his death for it to have resonance down through the decades.

 

I mean I know ADB was cracking a joke, everyone should know that he's poking the bear that is the wildly misunderstanding 40K Fan...but no the Emperor wont cut down Sanguinius...or I'll boil down a book, and eat it.

[MrDarth151]

I'll never understand the need to change things from what they are, when those things have been good for decades.

 

If you A, you ought to say B. The moment you brought in Roboute narrative balance requires more Primarchs.

[Scribe]

 

I'll never understand the need to change things from what they are, when those things have been good for decades.

 

If you A, you ought to say B. The moment you brought in Roboute narrative balance requires more Primarchs.

 

 

Good thing we have Magnus, Mortarion, The Lion, Russ, Khan, Corax, Angron, and Fulgrim to pull from with ZERO need to retcon anything.

 

I mean they already have foreshadowed Vulkan and Dorn in less then desirable ways, so add them to the list.

 

Leave the dead, dead. They dont need to piss on the ashes of their own setting.

[Snook]

Sure but Dorn is only dead when his dead is written in a way that makes it impossible for him to come back. Curzes foresight is not very reliable because he sees only fraktions and tend to interprate it in a negative way. 

 

Sanguinis may look like an angel but in him is something darker aka vampire. Vampires tend to come back now and then... or did Horus use that chaosie oaken pole power of him to kill Sangie :P

 

They could even write that they managed to get Ferruses head back and could have learned to reattach it to a (machine?) body.

 

Necrons come back, so do Perpetuals,  Tyranids are recycled, Daemons come back Chaos Space Marines do it all the time and so on. It is absolutely not against the setting just your liking. Do I like that Vulcan is a perpetual, no I do not put I can accept it. It will not change just because I and other likeminded people badmouth it at every corner.

 

Aside from that GW can do what they want to do. The reception of the majority of customers is important and not a fraktion of vocal people that think of themselfs as end of anything. I was a entrepreneur, I tend to seperate the needs from my wants. Something does not have to be good by any standart to be successful and in truth the opposite is true more often then not.

 

Oh and it is not a retcon, just because you would dislike his ressurection. If he was never killed but only mortaly wounded by Horus, that would be a retcon. Still being killed and dead but coming back is not. It is a part of the 40k fluff that information got lost or has changed over time. Truths, lies, different perspectives and the human tendency to "improve" what they like and "degrade" what they do not.

[Dantay VI]

Horus kept Ferrus' flensed skull with him on the Vengeful Spirit. Fabius Bile was able to  create clones though

 

Dorn was never recovered, only a hand, so he could be MIA rather than dead. A captive of a traitor legion ( a bit like Lysander)

 

Curze had his head chopped off by an assassin I believe, he is dead.

 

Necrons do come back, but each time they do, they lose a part of their independent thought until they become drones. (I think it is in their old codex) and that is if they survive their re-awakening without going insane.

 

If the Imperium is okay with everyone knowing that the Emperor is suspended in limbo on his golden throne, the propaganda from Sanguinius bravely sacrificing himself would not require that his almost dead body be hidden for 10 millenia (unless the Blood Angels were worried someone would try to steal it)

[MrDarth151]

 

 

I'll never understand the need to change things from what they are, when those things have been good for decades.

 

If you A, you ought to say B. The moment you brought in Roboute narrative balance requires more Primarchs.

 

 

Good thing we have Magnus, Mortarion, The Lion, Russ, Khan, Corax, Angron, and Fulgrim to pull from with ZERO need to retcon anything.

 

I mean they already have foreshadowed Vulkan and Dorn in less then desirable ways, so add them to the list.

 

Leave the dead, dead. They dont need to piss on the ashes of their own setting.

 

 

*Raises an eyebrow* Bringing Sanguinius back requires zero retcons as well. Retcon is a change of already established fluff and pretending it was always this way.

 

We are not talking about retconning the fact that Sanguinius died. We are talking about bringing dead Sanguinius back to life. It's not like he would be the first character to be brought back from the dead? Chaos Gods can do it, Erebus can do it, random Xenos can do it. Why not The Emperor of Mankind?

 

Other than the Grimdark, of course.

[Scribe]

The retcon would be having the Emperor kill Sanguinius Darth, the whole resurrection bit is it's own terrible and unnecessary idea, but this joke between ADB and Rohr was what I was talking about.

[MrDarth151]

The retcon would be having the Emperor kill Sanguinius Darth, the whole resurrection bit is it's own terrible and unnecessary idea, but this joke between ADB and Rohr was what I was talking about.

 

Ah, then I misunderstood your point. My apologies.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Poorly.

[BitsHammer]

Since Sanguinius has had a strong psychic influence on his sons despite 10,000 years for this hangover to wear off of the chapter, I'd have to guess "warp entity". Like his soul forming a body and him coming back that way (yay, Imperial Daemon Prince?). Like he's not coming back normal and what's left of him is likely more to be akin to Celestine (no longer mortal and bound into service on the Emperor for better or worse) than his brethren like Guilliman.

 

So you know, definitely not like Vulkan who'd be coming back full of hugs and sunshine.

[Riconas]

I hope not.

[Son of Carnelian]

Gabriel Seth wept.

 

He could not recall the last time tears left his eyes. He did not cry when the Apothecaries of the Flesh Tearers took him from his home. He did not cry as his organs reshaped themselves under the gene-forging of the Ascension. He did not cry when he ascended to Chapter Master and learned that his Chapter, in no uncertain terms, was dying. He certainly did not cry when he met Guilliman or his bastard Marines. They were not salvation.

 

This. This was salvation. 

 

Dozens of his Astartes lay dead in the earth of this miserable world, their sacred vitae mixing with the mud and offal of the war around them. Their weapons lay still in their cold hands. The few that still lived formed a circle around Seth and had fought a desperate defense so that perhaps the Storm Ravens might make it to their position on time. But no Storm Ravens broke through the cloudy skies. No, something far greater descended towards them now. 

 

Seth heard tales of the Sanguinor and even once witnessed it fighting alongside the Flesh Tearers in the frigid glaciers of Ootov Prime. But the figure that sped down from the skies now only resembled that figure in vague terms. It wore the gold of the Sanguinary Guard and wielded a massive blade, but the face... 

 

It was Sanguinius. Gabriel Seth had never been so certain of anything in all his life. If any doubts still remained, they disappeared when the figure touched down and began carving a path through the enemy singlehandedly. Where the Sanguinor fought with the silence of the grave, the Primarch fought with fury and passion. His first words filled Seth's heart in an instant. 

 

"You are my sons! Fight with me!" 

 

It was as simple as that for Seth. Sometimes, he thought, one must not seek out answers. One must simply have faith. And he had faith in Sanguinius' words.

 

Gabriel Seth wept. And Gabriel Seth fought. And Gabriel Seth's Primarch lived.