Scribe Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) Yeah thats a lot closer to my understanding than my admittedly hyperbolic, angst ridden response earlier. Edited January 10, 2018 by Scribe Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4979562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 My understanding of loose canon is not that canon is mutually valid, but rather that each source is entitled to some amount of validity. Something may be mentioned, might be held up as a possible source(Looking at you, Rogue Trader.) but depending on certain factors such as the age of the source and the number of times it's been repeated in the setting, it may be 'less' canon then other sources or theories. In some cases it might be shown later to just be outright wrong altogether. Loose canon is the idea that, for example the Dawn of War novels have a right to exist and a right to be used as a canonical source, but if they are never repeated, if they are separated from the universe entirely, and no one else seems to react and interact with them then they might be considered less canonical then a codex or ten different sources that say X thing is incorrect.In this way, authors are given the freedom to explore and expand on the universe, but also restrained in the sense that their lore might be overwritten by lot's of other lore that comes later. Which is candidly probably the best way to explore a decade old IP since it allows every author to have some impact without shackling the setting to any one vision or any one interpretation of the lore. Wielded deftly and skillfully it can be a wonderful way to explore the setting while maintaining mystery, wielded like a cudgel it is at best incredibly confusing at worst rendering an entire plotline pointless or raises like a billion other questions about other sources. Still, I quite like it.In fact I find I grow steadily more disinterested in the HH series as we approach Terra and the loose canon seems less and less in effect, so many things we know about the Primarchs and the Emperor now with a lot more certainty then we used to, I kind of miss how mythological 30k used to be. Lexington, BitsHammer, A D-B and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4979822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Inspired by the post above... I would prefer that Sang not return, but if he does return, I think he should be a fundamentally altered being, much moreso than Guilliman. What if his return is somehow brought about by the remaining Flesh Tearers' blood being pumped into his body (or perhaps they offer themselves one at a time to a freshly risen but delirious/weak Sanguinius)? I think this might be the redemption and end Seth is seeking. After consumption, this blood-empowered Sanguinius would find himself carrying the intense memories of Seth and Seth's men (almost like Other Memory in Dune). Sanguinius would now have Seth's elongated fangs and feral bloodlust. The Sword Encarmine was broken by Horus. In honour of Seth, Sanguinius arms himself with a primarch-grade version of Seth's infamous two-handed chainsword Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4981652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 If Sanguinius takes on a more Gabriel Seth sort of approach to combat then he needs to kick people in the crotch/punch them in the face everytime he passes his armour saves in combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4981660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urriak Urruk Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Lots of developers have personal passion projects, and mine is the creation of some kind of application that scans forums and other social media for people stating that prayers and/or belief creates gods in 40K, and auto-posts "that's not how the warp works, damnit" in response.And why is it that your head-cannon is in any way more valid than Fulkes' ?Loose canon. Yay. Edit: to be clear, 'loose canon' renders discussion pointless, if we are going to claim head canon, actually has merit, all this thread is, is textual masturbation, a solo act of 'well I think this, and it's irrelevant what others or actual lore states'. An utter waste of time. That's not what loose canon is, though. That's how people that dislike or misunderstand the idea treat it, but it's not what it is. Isn’t loose canon the mutual validity of published sources or right to ignore published sources for the sake of narrative, while head canon is a personal interpretation of published sources or entirely original in-universe information? To use non-controversial examples: the captain of the Ultramarines Second Company is subject to loose canon, but my Captain Burly McCodpiece is headcanon? So Yvraines statement Guilliman would need to die would be subject to loose canon but my choice not to consider Gathering Storm as the events that happen would be headcanon. If my train of thought is correct. That’s how I interpreted the original Loose Canon piece any way. I'm not sure head-canon can be quite that personal, that's just bad fan-fiction. Even head-canon requires a certain level of support, even if it's support that can't be proved. A good example would be, "My head-canon is that Rey is Obi-Wan Kenobi's daughter, for these reasons!" You can't prove that, you can't disprove it, but it doesn't rely on anything completely personal and irrelevant. (like Burly McCodpiece) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4982214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Head canon, is by definition to me, unsupportable, knowingly wrong, or purposefully ignoring fluff one finds terrible. I've got plenty of head canon, I don't pretend it's accurate to the settings loose canon, it's just a way to ignore things I find unacceptable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4982639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chamberlainskeksil Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4982915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urriak Urruk Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) Head canon, is by definition to me, unsupportable, knowingly wrong, or purposefully ignoring fluff one finds terrible. I've got plenty of head canon, I don't pretend it's accurate to the settings loose canon, it's just a way to ignore things I find unacceptable. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Headcanon An idea, belief, or aspect of a story that is not mentioned in the media itself, but is accepted by either the media consumer themselves or the fandom in general. If it is confirmed by the creator of the story, it becomes canon. In Homestuck , a popular webcomic , many suspect the headcanon that the trolls are carnivores, because of their natural homicidal tendencies and sharp teeth. It's never explicitly stated in the comic that this is true, but it'd be kind of dumb to assume they're a race known for salads and ice cream sundaes. It's kind of the opposite of what you describe. Edited January 16, 2018 by Urriak Urruk Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4984027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Plus let's be honest, adding in the amount of prayer he gets from the citizens of the Imperium, he might even be at minor warp god status at this point (kind of like the Imperium's version of Khorn and Khaine) at this point. Lots of developers have personal passion projects, and mine is the creation of some kind of application that scans forums and other social media for people stating that prayers and/or belief creates gods in 40K, and auto-posts "that's not how the warp works, damnit" in response. And that would be incorrect. The Liber Chaotica explicitly states that is in fact precisely how the warp works. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4985103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Is Liber Chaotica one of those ‘published but ignored because it was wrong and never mentioned again’ pieces that ADB mentioned. Now that we know those exist, it’s impossible to really determine what cool older one offs were ‘wrong’. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4985104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Is Liber Chaotica one of those ‘published but ignored because it was wrong and never mentioned again’ pieces that ADB mentioned. Now that we know those exist, it’s impossible to really determine what cool older one offs were ‘wrong’. No, that was the official Games Workshop books on Chaos and by extension the warp. It is as canon as you can get. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4985109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagoth Ur Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Is Liber Chaotica one of those ‘published but ignored because it was wrong and never mentioned again’ pieces that ADB mentioned. Now that we know those exist, it’s impossible to really determine what cool older one offs were ‘wrong’. No, that was the official Games Workshop books on Chaos and by extension the warp. It is as canon as you can get. While I am a big fan of the Liber Chaotica, weren't they written primarily with Warhammer Fantasy in mind and from an in-universe perspective? While both settings share many things concerning chaos, I'd still be cautious in applying knowledge from setting A to setting B and vice versa. Maybe Rohr is on to something here, perhaps not because the work itself was wrong and thus never mentioned again, but because it was created for a different setting in mind? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4985115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Is Liber Chaotica one of those ‘published but ignored because it was wrong and never mentioned again’ pieces that ADB mentioned. Now that we know those exist, it’s impossible to really determine what cool older one offs were ‘wrong’. No, that was the official Games Workshop books on Chaos and by extension the warp. It is as canon as you can get. While I am a big fan of the Liber Chaotica, weren't they written primarily with Warhammer Fantasy in mind and from an in-universe perspective? While both settings share many things concerning chaos, I'd still be cautious in applying knowledge from setting A to setting B and vice versa. Maybe Rohr is on to something here, perhaps not because the work itself was wrong and thus never mentioned again, but because it was created for a different setting in mind? It includes 40k in the Liber Chaotica. The books were released as GW books, not BL fluff books. As far as I'm concerned Liber Chaotica is the last official canon on Chaos. There has been nothing since then to refute it. I also would point out that every other depiction of Chaos in both fantasy and 40k support the same premise: belief + numbers = the warp reflecting whatever that belief is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4985131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chamberlainskeksil Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 The new daemon codex that just came out a couple days ago presents an idea very similar to the one in Liber Chaotica. "In the warp, similar thoughts and emotions gather together like rivulets of water running down a cliff face. They form streams and eddies of anguish and desire, pools of hatred and torrents of pride. Since the dawn of time, these tides and waves have flowed unceasingly through the mirror-realm of the warp, and such is their power that they formed creatures made of the very stuff of unreality. Eventually, these instinctual, formless beings gained a rudimentary consciousness. The Chaos Gods were born – vast psychic presences made of the fantasies and horrors of mortals. These are the Ruinous Powers, and each is a reflection of the passions that formed them." -- Codex: Chaos Daemons (2018) p 6 Dagoth Ur and Bulwyf 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4985133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagoth Ur Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Huh, maybe I should have a flick through my Liber Chaotica books again, thanks gents :) Bulwyf 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4985140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 40k just tended to avoid many of the issues raised in the Liber Chaotica portrayal of the Gods, simply because 40k has far fewer. There's no Imperial pantheon (just the Emperor now), no Elven mandalas (everyone but Khaine/Cegorach is dead), and no focus on "lesser" Chaos forces that worship the Gods in different ways, or under different names, like Norse tribes worshiping Shornaal instead of Slaanesh. Still, the portrayals of Chaos in 40k and Fantasy have always been incredibly similar. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's obviously possessed by a daemon created the same way in both universes. Bulwyf 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4985161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beta galactosidase Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Most examples of belief in the background have belief that doesn't count and belief that does. Characters will have honest belief, they are not cynical or sacrilegious, but the emperor doesn't bless them or chaos doesn't bless them. Then in the same story someone else who is not a declared believer will do something selfless and be blessed by the Emperor, or corrupt and be blessed by chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4985210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Was Liber Chaotica an in-universe text by an Old World heretic who has visions of 40K? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4987334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 Yes, but has been referenced by BL authors as being true to the core of GWs mythology. I'd have to reread the last one I think it's what really described how it all functions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4988187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slave to Darkness Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Only once he dies, and is reborn as the 5th Chaos God, the Starchild. Just as planned. This I would be down with, its lore dating back to 1st ed, bet somehow nuGW would still balls it all up though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4994727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) The Emperor cannot die. If he does the Golden Throne will go boom along with the rest of Terra. Also, Sanguinius isn’t coming back. Neither is Horus. Neither is Ferrus. Neither is Curze. Edited January 27, 2018 by Mellow Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4995117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionnaire of the VIIth Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 The Emperor cannot die. If he does the Golden Throne will go boom along with the rest of Terra. There are other worlds in the Imperium besides Terra and Guilliman is Emperor Mk II now so it isn't that much of a loss. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4995141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonreaper666 Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 The Emperor cannot die. If he does the Golden Throne will go boom along with the rest of Terra. There are other worlds in the Imperium besides Terra and Guilliman is Emperor Mk II now so it isn't that much of a loss. Does Guilliman have an extra Astronomican to spare? Don't forget the Warp Rift that is only sealed because of the Emperor He dies, all of the Solar System becomes one hell of a freak show! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4995387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slave to Darkness Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 He lives, he dies, he lives again!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4995517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) He lives, he dies, he lives again!!!And still, Mediocre...(Guilliman not Emps :D ) Also I'm sure Cawl would pull an astronomican out of his ass. A better one even. Cause ya know he probably worked on the first one aswell. Edited January 28, 2018 by Sete Legionnaire of the VIIth and Slave to Darkness 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341924-how-would-sanguiniuss-return-be-explained/page/8/#findComment-4995562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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