Ashes of Prospero: discussion (spoilers)

[Guest Triszin]

Got that book at BLW. One of the worst unnessessary stories I ever read in my whole life.

Care to elaborate?

 

 

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What did Lukas the Trickster do to trick magnus? at this point I really hope Lukas gets more love, I wouldnt mind him getting a pseudo Great company of jackal wolves. Take the pranksters and odd wolves from all the great companies and turn it into a company that specializes in misdirection and covert tactics.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Triszin

[Aenar Deathclaws]

Got that book at BLW. One of the worst unnessessary stories I ever read in my whole life. 

 

Like triszin, could you elaborate please?

 

I didn't make a review of this book (at least, not in english) and I found it very cool. But I know that I'm a SW fanboy and I may be partial.

 

I think that this story opens a lot of opportunities for the wolves, the Thousand Sons and even the Imperium at large for a future campaign.

 

If we can debate on it, it would be interesting.

[MaveriK]

Lukas either found a library card and threw it on the opposite direction to distract Magnus or he burned some precious books in front of Magnus.

[Aenar Deathclaws]

Frankly guys, I don't know if it's good to spoil you that.

 

Because I think that it is one of the best moment of the book.

[Biscuittzz]

Lukas tricked arguably the second greatest psyker who also possesses precognitive powers? Yea it's a pass on this with writing like this alone. What's with every new book needing some deus ex machina to practically hold an entire storyline together?

 

"My Lord, our last scan has revealed Magnus' flagship translating at the warp point in System X. It looks like he is intent on following and intercepting our other ship. Your plan to lure him out of the prospero system seems to have worked well."

 

Could put something like that in the build up, yes it's also a 'just because' but at least seems more believable.

 

Can't promote the Lukas book if he isn't in this probably. 

 

40k and 30k to an extent is slowly turning into WoW where the focus is on a few select characters every time rather than the massive setting or event that they are involved in.

 

Continuing with the cynicism, can't sell those plastic mkIII and mkIV marines if players never had lore to use them I guess. 

 

Edit: Thorpe writing this, didn't actually look at who was at the time. Automatic pass on this alone.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Biscuittzz

[Guest]

Precognitive abilities do not mean the wielder knows all. Emperor had this too and I doubt he saw Horus betraying him. Magnus obviously didn't see how he ruined the webway for the Emperor would cause him to be declared a traitor not how his plans are constantly foiled. I have many times read people saying "this is :cuss story because x-person has precognitive abilities and he wouldn't have done that. Obviously precognitive abilities aren't all that in 40k.

 

Also the Lukas book comes before this one so your argument about that is moot.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Caldersson

[Marshal Rohr]

Why would the Emperor care about one captain betraying him when eight of his Primarchs did. If he ever gave a thought to Abaddon at the time, I’d be surprised.

[mc warhammer]

Lukas tricked arguably the second greatest psyker who also possesses precognitive powers? Yea it's a pass on this with writing like this alone. What's with every new book needing some deus ex machina to practically hold an entire storyline together?

 

was it deus ex machina though?

[Guest]

Why would the Emperor care about one captain betraying him when eight of his Primarchs did. If he ever gave a thought to Abaddon at the time, I’d be surprised.

I meant Horus.

[Biscuittzz]

 

Lukas tricked arguably the second greatest psyker who also possesses precognitive powers? Yea it's a pass on this with writing like this alone. What's with every new book needing some deus ex machina to practically hold an entire storyline together?

 

was it deus ex machina though?

 

 

Maybe or maybe not, but there are plenty of more plausible scenarios that could have been written to keep the story somewhat credible ( it is science fiction/fantasy I understand yea).

 

@Caldersson my coment about Lukas' book was tongue in cheek.

[DarkChaplain]

Can we at least read the book first before calling bs on plot points we only got briefly summarized and left deliberately vague at that..

[Aenar Deathclaws]

Lukas tricked arguably the second greatest psyker who also possesses precognitive powers? Yea it's a pass on this with writing like this alone. What's with every new book needing some deus ex machina to practically hold an entire storyline together?

 

"My Lord, our last scan has revealed Magnus' flagship translating at the warp point in System X. It looks like he is intent on following and intercepting our other ship. Your plan to lure him out of the prospero system seems to have worked well."

 

Could put something like that in the build up, yes it's also a 'just because' but at least seems more believable.

 

Can't promote the Lukas book if he isn't in this probably. 

 

40k and 30k to an extent is slowly turning into WoW where the focus is on a few select characters every time rather than the massive setting or event that they are involved in.

 

Continuing with the cynicism, can't sell those plastic mkIII and mkIV marines if players never had lore to use them I guess. 

 

Edit: Thorpe writing this, didn't actually look at who was at the time. Automatic pass on this alone.

 

I do think that it's an error to think that Magnus knows everything in advance. We have seen him being beaten on several occasions : Fenris (M32 and Wrath of Magnus), Gathering Storm against Guilliman... If he was such a precognitive guy, he would never be beaten. And, he is always looking for new knowledge. He did win powers when he ascended to Prince Daemon but he also lost some others things.

 

And maybe, you should read the book before saying that it's not plausible.

 

I remember the events of Wrath of Magnus where the silver towers of the TS appear on orbit of Fenris with the fleets of the SW, DA on orbit and not taking even a scratch? Come on! On which side is the Deus Ex Machina there? And on a far more greater scale.

 

This book makes me want to know more about Lukas. Since he appeared in the SW codex, I didn't liked this character but the last audios, short stories and this book makes me want to learn more. He is far more complex than he seems.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Aenar Deathclaws

[Runefyre]

 

Lukas tricked arguably the second greatest psyker who also possesses precognitive powers? Yea it's a pass on this with writing like this alone. What's with every new book needing some deus ex machina to practically hold an entire storyline together?

 

"My Lord, our last scan has revealed Magnus' flagship translating at the warp point in System X. It looks like he is intent on following and intercepting our other ship. Your plan to lure him out of the prospero system seems to have worked well."

 

Could put something like that in the build up, yes it's also a 'just because' but at least seems more believable.

 

Can't promote the Lukas book if he isn't in this probably. 

 

40k and 30k to an extent is slowly turning into WoW where the focus is on a few select characters every time rather than the massive setting or event that they are involved in.

 

Continuing with the cynicism, can't sell those plastic mkIII and mkIV marines if players never had lore to use them I guess. 

 

Edit: Thorpe writing this, didn't actually look at who was at the time. Automatic pass on this alone.

 

I do think that it's an error to think that Magnus knows everything in advance. We have seen him being beaten on several occasions : Fenris (M32 and Wrath of Magnus), Gathering Storm against Guilliman... If he was such a precognitive guy, he would never be beaten. And, he is always looking for new knowledge. He did win powers when he ascended to Prince Daemon but he also lost some others things.

 

And maybe, you should read the book before saying that it's not plausible.

 

I remember the events of Wrath of Magnus where the silver towers of the TS appear on orbit of Fenris with the fleets of the SW, DA on orbit and not taking even a scratch? Come on! On which side is the Deus Ex Machina there? And on a far more greater scale.

 

This book makes me want to know more about Lukas. Since he appeared in the SW codex, I didn't liked this character but the last audios, short stories and this book makes me want to learn more. He is far more complex than he seems.

 

Dang, you're really making me want to read it NOW!

[Plaguecaster]

 

 

Lukas tricked arguably the second greatest psyker who also possesses precognitive powers? Yea it's a pass on this with writing like this alone. What's with every new book needing some deus ex machina to practically hold an entire storyline together?

 

"My Lord, our last scan has revealed Magnus' flagship translating at the warp point in System X. It looks like he is intent on following and intercepting our other ship. Your plan to lure him out of the prospero system seems to have worked well."

 

Could put something like that in the build up, yes it's also a 'just because' but at least seems more believable.

 

Can't promote the Lukas book if he isn't in this probably.

 

40k and 30k to an extent is slowly turning into WoW where the focus is on a few select characters every time rather than the massive setting or event that they are involved in.

 

Continuing with the cynicism, can't sell those plastic mkIII and mkIV marines if players never had lore to use them I guess.

 

Edit: Thorpe writing this, didn't actually look at who was at the time. Automatic pass on this alone.

I do think that it's an error to think that Magnus knows everything in advance. We have seen him being beaten on several occasions : Fenris (M32 and Wrath of Magnus), Gathering Storm against Guilliman... If he was such a precognitive guy, he would never be beaten. And, he is always looking for new knowledge. He did win powers when he ascended to Prince Daemon but he also lost some others things.

 

And maybe, you should read the book before saying that it's not plausible.

 

I remember the events of Wrath of Magnus where the silver towers of the TS appear on orbit of Fenris with the fleets of the SW, DA on orbit and not taking even a scratch? Come on! On which side is the Deus Ex Machina there? And on a far more greater scale.

 

This book makes me want to know more about Lukas. Since he appeared in the SW codex, I didn't liked this character but the last audios, short stories and this book makes me want to learn more. He is far more complex than he seems.

Yeah he's been beaten but the majority of all those had pretty stupid plot hole with plenty of Deus Ex like Grimnar's rather convient Axe of Khorne which awakened after years of laying dormant to help banish Magnus all without any effect at all to him

 

 

Yes the Emperor couldn't see Horus planning Rebellion but he was a Primarch not a normal space marine I don't care how awesome your wolf marines are or the fact the fluff writers are fixiated on making Lukas a lazy Space wolf version of the Trickster god Loki, Primarchs (even Daemon ones who just end up punching bags for loyalist to make their characters look cooler) shouldn't be outwitted by normal marines

 

I don't suppose someone could spoil how Lukas actually manages to trick Magnus as it'd have to be pretty damned well done not to come off as some lazy plot hole where Magnus is the bumbling evil villian outwitted the superhero Lukas because he's awesome

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, at least in the way foresight is shown in Master of Mankind, it's nowhere near the "I win" button some people seem to think. As the Emperor says, you can see an end goal, you can see a vague path on how to reach it, but things can happen on that journey. Perhaps steps you took to avoid an obstacle weren't as thorough as you thought, or you took the wrong steps in preventing it. Perhaps that possibility you overlooked as "there's no way that could happen" actually does happen. Maybe it's like what happens to Talos in the Night Lords trilogy, and those events you thought were happening years in the future were actually happening right now because you misread things, and now your contingency plans are far from ready and oh god that looks like a lot more guns they have than what you saw in the vision.

 

Also, let's not forget, Magnus is arrogant. Really, really arrogant. Who knows, maybe he had seen Lukas beating him in a vision, but instinctively said "me? Beaten by a Blood Claw? HA!" and instantly dismissed it, and went back to preparing for a Grey Knight Strike team teleporting in just as he's about to kill Grimnar. He has foresight, he's not omniscient or all-knowing. Hell, Tzeentch could have hidden this future from him just to troll Magnus.

[Guest]

It could also mean his "vision" saw a great wolf causing him great pain, and he read it that one of Russ wolves would do that or Russ himself. Not realizing the great wolf was actually a expression for "The Great Wolf" aka Grimnar. So Magnus doesn't interpret his visions properly. Thing is if Magnus had this great precognitive power that allowed him to perfectly see the future, he would be given the greatest Deus Ex Machina ever, making it rather cheap in Magnus favor at that point.

[mc warhammer]

Well, at least in the way foresight is shown in Master of Mankind, it's nowhere near the "I win" button some people seem to think. As the Emperor says, you can see an end goal, you can see a vague path on how to reach it, but things can happen on that journey. Perhaps steps you took to avoid an obstacle weren't as thorough as you thought, or you took the wrong steps in preventing it. Perhaps that possibility you overlooked as "there's no way that could happen" actually does happen. Maybe it's like what happens to Talos in the Night Lords trilogy, and those events you thought were happening years in the future were actually happening right now because you misread things, and now your contingency plans are far from ready and oh god that looks like a lot more guns they have than what you saw in the vision.

 

Also, let's not forget, Magnus is arrogant. Really, really arrogant. Who knows, maybe he had seen Lukas beating him in a vision, but instinctively said "me? Beaten by a Blood Claw? HA!" and instantly dismissed it, and went back to preparing for a Grey Knight Strike team teleporting in just as he's about to kill Grimnar. He has foresight, he's not omniscient or all-knowing. Hell, Tzeentch could have hidden this future from him just to troll Magnus.

i’d be happy with idea of lukas exploiting a flaw in magnus, like his arrogance or overconfidence. or even tzeentch screwing magnus over somehow and using lukas as a pawn in that

 

fiction is full of characters who outwit the gods, constantine and ulysses come to mind. it just depends on if it plays out convincingly

Edited December 11, 2017 by mc warhammer

[Lord_Caerolion]

Very much so. If it's just "And then Lukas won because Magnus is an idiot who can't do anything" then yeah, that's just bad writing.

[Phoebus]

One of the ways the Black Library authors use to describe precognition is through "threads." As Lord_Caerolion mentioned, even the most powerful "precogs" see their goal, and see pathways that lead to that goal. Sometimes threads are easier for them to discern; sometimes obstacles can be discerned; and some are even able to discern how certain choices will affect the outcome (number of threads to the goal becoming smaller or larger, etc.).

 

Sadly, Magnus is a character whose point of view is woefully withheld. We had to wait until The Outcast Dead to get an idea of just how grueling the Emperor's task was. I can't recall any perspective being provided on what Magnus was able to foresee with regards to warning Horus, casting his spell to contact the Emperor, his decisions prior to and during the razing of Prospero, or any of his actions up to and including the events of Betrayer (I can't recall whether it occurs prior to, at the same time as, or after The Crimson King, chronologically speaking). I, as the reader, have to assume that Magnus's precognition just didn't work Because Chaos (which, don't get me wrong, is a valid plot device), but such a crucial element of the story simply being inferred feels cheap.

 

Anyways, I haven't read this novel, but where Lucas is concerned I don't think it would be at all out of character if Magnus noted a thread that involves a solitary Blood Claw thwarting his schemes and dismissing it out of sheer hubris.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Phoebus

[Aenar Deathclaws]

 

Yeah he's been beaten but the majority of all those had pretty stupid plot hole with plenty of Deus Ex like Grimnar's rather convient Axe of Khorne which awakened after years of laying dormant to help banish Magnus all without any effect at all to him

 

 

Yes the Emperor couldn't see Horus planning Rebellion but he was a Primarch not a normal space marine I don't care how awesome your wolf marines are or the fact the fluff writers are fixiated on making Lukas a lazy Space wolf version of the Trickster god Loki, Primarchs (even Daemon ones who just end up punching bags for loyalist to make their characters look cooler) shouldn't be outwitted by normal marines

 

I don't suppose someone could spoil how Lukas actually manages to trick Magnus as it'd have to be pretty damned well done not to come off as some lazy plot hole where Magnus is the bumbling evil villian outwitted the superhero Lukas because he's awesome

 

 

For the Axe of Grimnar, that's not how I have read it. The axe has been reforged by the Iron Priests and Rune Priests to clear its chaotic influence. Magus was just overconfident and forgot that at the beginning it was a Khorne Axe and this is made to be anathema to Tzeentch minions. That's just it.

 

We also have plenty of examples in the Horus Heresy of Primarchs being beaten by normal SM or just "normal humans". Let's just think of Horus with the davinite priests. I don't hear anyone crying at that... Or the whole plot of Erebus in the Horus Heresy.

In the books where the chaotic forces or xenos are the main characters, loyalists end also as punching bags for them. That's just the way it is.

 

Lukas is indeed largely inspired by Loki. But we know it instantly with its name. That's just the same thing with Sly Marbo or characters like that. As I said, I didn't like the character at the beginning. But he is far more complex in this book than I thought and I appreciated it.

 

 

Well, at least in the way foresight is shown in Master of Mankind, it's nowhere near the "I win" button some people seem to think. As the Emperor says, you can see an end goal, you can see a vague path on how to reach it, but things can happen on that journey. Perhaps steps you took to avoid an obstacle weren't as thorough as you thought, or you took the wrong steps in preventing it. Perhaps that possibility you overlooked as "there's no way that could happen" actually does happen. Maybe it's like what happens to Talos in the Night Lords trilogy, and those events you thought were happening years in the future were actually happening right now because you misread things, and now your contingency plans are far from ready and oh god that looks like a lot more guns they have than what you saw in the vision.

 

Also, let's not forget, Magnus is arrogant. Really, really arrogant. Who knows, maybe he had seen Lukas beating him in a vision, but instinctively said "me? Beaten by a Blood Claw? HA!" and instantly dismissed it, and went back to preparing for a Grey Knight Strike team teleporting in just as he's about to kill Grimnar. He has foresight, he's not omniscient or all-knowing. Hell, Tzeentch could have hidden this future from him just to troll Magnus.

i’d be happy with idea of lukas exploiting a flaw in magnus, like his arrogance or overconfidence. or even tzeentch screwing magnus over somehow and using lukas as a pawn in that

 

fiction is full of characters who outwit the gods, constantine and ulysses come to mind. it just depends on if it plays out convincingly

 

 

 

Very much so. If it's just "And then Lukas won because Magnus is an idiot who can't do anything" then yeah, that's just bad writing.

 

I can understand your point of views. I can spoil you on one thing :

 

There is no stories of precognitive vision for Magnus. Well, not the ones you're thinking of

 

I'm lending my book to some friends to have their opinion on the story. So that, you'll not only have my opinion on the story.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, he is the master of the Corvidae Cult, which specialised in Divination, so he definitely had precognition and foresight, it's just not an auto-win like people think.

[Fang_Guard23]

Hidden Content

The 13 Great Company have been recovered

With vehicles and support staff.

Bulveye used the heart of the portal maze as a base of operations, time flows differently in the maze, they feel tha a few days or weeks have passed by.

[Fang_Guard23]

with this i can't wait to see what is going to happen in the codex, or with FW

[b1soul]

Who thinks precognition is an auto-win?

[Phoebus]

Personal opinion: precognition should be equal parts game-changing boon (for the relative short-term) and Greek tragedy (for the long-term).