How to deal with bubble wrap/transports?

[John_f]

Granted, I have no practical experience with the new codex (getting it for xmas)but initial thoughts are that we now have some great delivery systems and the +1 to wound is huge. But how do we deal with opponents who bobble wrap or keep their counter offensive units in transports?

 

This was partially demonstrated in the latest Tabletop Tactics batrep, where the opponent hade Berzerkers in Rhino, that could fairly easily counter the big units of DC and SangGuard being deep truck in. I can imagine the scenario being even worse if you had a guard or a Tau army, being bubble wrapped by cheap MSU.

 

Is there an efficient way to deal with this issue?

[Panzer]

Granted, I have no practical experience with the new codex (getting it for xmas)but initial thoughts are that we now have some great delivery systems and the +1 to wound is huge. But how do we deal with opponents who bobble wrap or keep their counter offensive units in transports?

This was partially demonstrated in the latest Tabletop Tactics batrep, where the opponent hade Berzerkers in Rhino, that could fairly easily counter the big units of DC and SangGuard being deep truck in. I can imagine the scenario being even worse if you had a guard or a Tau army, being bubble wrapped by cheap MSU.

Is there an efficient way to deal with this issue?

Same way as always. We shoot them. BA are supposed to be a melee army with ranged support, not a 100% melee army.

[Xenith]

Don't deep strike near your opponent's counter assault?

 

Use jump packs to fly over the wrap?

[Morticon]

Shooting will have its limitations. 

If you're using your shooting to waste the chaff, I would argue you're largely playing into your opponents hands.  

 

A lot of the time, the strongest BA armies will be "go big or go home" type lists that will be made or broken on first turn. 

Lists are likely to gravitate towards one of two styles -

 

A: Aggressive:  deploying big/chunky DC jumpy squads on field, and using the strat to move up and near guarantee first turn charge (if we get first turn). 

 or

B: Conservative: deploying either big/chunky DC, or otherwise less chunky Van-Vets into reserve and using DoA. 

Both tactics  are likely to see a BA first turn charge, and both tactics are likely to wipe out screening units - especially very big, chunky ones.  

i believe A will see fair play in clubs and local scenes, while B is likely to be more popular at higher tables in bigger tournies where amount of first turn games average out .

 

 

The next step will be layered assaults - you cant all come in turn one.   If you do, you risk being held up.  You need to hit the bubble wrap, then in the following turn, hit the rest of the stuff - everything depending on how many layers etc.  If there are two big layers, then it may be worthwhile in this case to shoot the second layer, fight the first. 

Personally, i would consider using scouts for first wave, then DC/Van, Reivers and Assault for 2nd and 3rd.  

If you're using your shooting to waste the chaff, I would argue you're largely playing into your opponents hands.  

[Xenith]

Yes. Shooting hands the initiative to the opponent as they can remove casualties.

 

A couple of units of scouts can kill the chaff, or maybe pull it enough out of position to let you get the charge you need.

 

Need more scouts

[Jolemai]

Was just thinking Scouts before I got to the end of Morticon's reply, especially as I've pulled off a first turn charge with them in the past.

 

Will be looking to see how I can use a Land Speeder Storm too.

[Pendent]

Depends on the kind of bubble wrap. I'm personally very partial to either using bolter armed Inceptors. I'm hoping Sternguard in a Drop Pod will be ok now that we have the +1 to wound on their botlers strategem as well- I feel like they'll be a better option against screening units that have better armor. If I'm feeling feisty I'll bring my Repulsor.

I'll be popping transports the same way I always have- a backfield filled with tanks sporting a huge number of heavy weapons. Post codex drop I'll probably reduce it down to just a Sicaran with Lascannon sponsons and a quad-las predator since we'll have more ability to wreck vehicles in assault. The Stormraven has been a good option and would give Sternguard etc another option to deploy but I can't decide how much I'll like it with the updated costs.

[John_f]

Thank you for your input gentlemen!

 

I think some of you are missing the point here. If you are dropping in DC or sang guards you can only deploy them 8” from an enemy. So even if you destroy the bubble wrap or transport in shooting, chances are that you won’t be able to charge the things you WANTt to charge in turn one. This leaves a big chunk of your army wounrable to the vast majority of the enemies firepower or protected counter cc units when the wrap disengages or the transport blows up. Am I the only one seeing the major flaw here?

[Pendent]

There's nothing forcing you to deploy your reserve units until turn three. Wait till the bubble wrap/transports are popped and then start your assault.

 

In the fluff Inceptors are there to clear a beachhead for other stuff to land in and that it exactly what I am recommending here.

[Charlo]

Thank you for your input gentlemen!

 

I think some of you are missing the point here. If you are dropping in DC or sang guards you can only deploy them 8” from an enemy. So even if you destroy the bubble wrap or transport in shooting, chances are that you won’t be able to charge the things you WANTt to charge in turn one. This leaves a big chunk of your army wounrable to the vast majority of the enemies firepower or protected counter cc units when the wrap disengages or the transport blows up. Am I the only one seeing the major flaw here?

 

9.0000001" away is where you have to deploy. You need to be over 9". But because you only need to get within 1" to charge something is why the roll needed is a 9.

 

And it's only an issue if you plan to faceroll by dropping stuff and charging the enemy with no retaliation.

 

Instead you need to make balanced and concerted drops with good support that can either hide for a turn then use movement to charge in the next one, which, by then bubblewrap won't matter as much as you can just leap over it! :D

[Pendent]

 

Thank you for your input gentlemen!

 

I think some of you are missing the point here. If you are dropping in DC or sang guards you can only deploy them 8” from an enemy. So even if you destroy the bubble wrap or transport in shooting, chances are that you won’t be able to charge the things you WANTt to charge in turn one. This leaves a big chunk of your army wounrable to the vast majority of the enemies firepower or protected counter cc units when the wrap disengages or the transport blows up. Am I the only one seeing the major flaw here?

 

9.0000001" away is where you have to deploy. You need to be over 9". But because you only need to get within 1" to charge something is why the roll needed is a 9.

 

And it's only an issue if you plan to faceroll by dropping stuff and charging the enemy with no retaliation.

 

Instead you need to make balanced and concerted drops with good support that can either hide for a turn then use movement to charge in the next one, which, by then bubblewrap won't matter as much as you can just leap over it!

 

A really good point- you can drop your assault units out of LOS and then use their movement to advance during the next turn into the hole that has hopefully been opened for them.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

My current meta is super bubbly... pretty much everyone except vanilla marines and GK can fill the board with lots of cheapo bodies, it is a pain... and forget Conscripts, ...CSM, DG and especially Nids can spam you with chaff like noboby's business.

 

This is also why I started taking Whirlwinds and why I still love them. Every shooty 'threat' I sent into range (razorbacks) got dummy charged asap, and being a small elite army I never had the "throw-away" assault/DS unit to pull their away chaff... further nobody in my meta ever stays in combat; immediate flee and focus fire.

 

The 2 things, rules-wise I wanted out of the new codex were price reductions (mostly we did pretty well here) and a fix to the crappy aura-bubble mechanic which sadly still sucks. But with cheaper and better Dreadnoughts I'm not as worried about them being tar-pitted (I had a DC dread spend an entire game fighting horrors that regenerated faster than I could kill them). It's a real shame about the Frag Cannon, that's a real head scratcher that I intend to write GW about.

 

The vindicator went down in points but because of the short range, see above... I know AC are awesome but I'm thinking the full Flame Baal might be nice with the new strats... either fry chaff, or make them move off whatever they're protecting to assault you and eat tons of fiery overwatch.

 

The BEST bubble popping unit I've found so far though (and thanks to another member of this forum for the idea), is 3 separate units of dual Heavy Flamer Land Speeders ("Fly" keyword), they're surprisingly decent in close-combat too!

[Kallas]

One thing about transports: if you can completely surround them (Death Company, maybe?) then destroy the transport, the embarked units will be destroyed.

 

So a Rhino full of Berserkers could be their tomb if you were to drop your Death Company close enough and roll well on your charge roll (DoA can help there, as can Lemartes), plus your pile in move, to get all of them around it so that no Berserkers can get out. Boom, problem solved

[tychobi]

Proper chaff and bubble wrap can blunt the nastiest of charges and you will have trouble if you are relying on elite melee units to win you the game vs armies that employ such tactics.  One thing to remember is to choose your moment wisely when dropping a big deep strike cp ensured charge.  Wise commanders will not risk high cost high output models on the first turn against many armies, opting to wait for the right opening.  Blood angels will not be an easy army to play vs hordes due to low model count alone and the balance of buffing your raving choppy marines vs having enough models to weather strong shooting and counter assault will continue to be our balancing act.  

 

Transports need laser cannon.  Lots of laser cannon.

 

Big winners for me are scouts.  They hit so very hard with those little knives now and can charge that chaff round 1! 

[Brother Crimson]

Could Storm Bolter/ chainsword company vet still do it? Potentially 7 attacks pet model is great.

[durdle-durdle]

Don’t always strive for a turn one charge. Sometimes turn 2 or 3 is when they need to come in after you’ve cleared a threat or two (or some chaff so they can charge in better).

 

High rof weapons are what you use to clear out the chaff, so assbacks, heavy bolter devestators, dakka baals (though, if you’re just clearing chaff, why not save the points and take an assback?), stormravens/stormtalons, inceptors...there’s a big list. Stormbolter jump vets were my favorite, but now...I’m thinking inceptors honestly.

 

The thing is though that being an elite army, you have to be aggressive, but can’t get bogged down. What I see people do all the time is hurl their dudes up the middle and get outflanked and attrition’s down. I deploy shooty in the middle and all my assault drop units go to one side. Crush that flank then sweep into the rest. It limits your return fire in that the opponent has to move all his army from one side of the board to the complete other to engage that. Never rush up the middle.

 

Also, if you want to get more bullets down range and fill a Troops slot, look at intercessors with auto bolt rifles. 90 points gets you 10 bolt shots at 24”, and they’re pretty durable, and objective secured to boot.

 

I’m thinking of filling out a brigade with 2 scout snipers, 2 auto bolt intercessors, and 2 tactical squads with a heavy weapon.

[Pendent]

Could Storm Bolter/ chainsword company vet still do it? Potentially 7 attacks pet model is great.

They're pretty effective depending on what kind of chaff you're facing. The lack of AP can be an issue. For chaff clearing I really like something with ap -1, so heavy bolters, assault cannons and the like. Removing the save entirely from a squad of boys makes a big difference, at that ap-1 means you're an actual threat to stuff that either has heavier armor or is in cover. I really think Inceptors with the bolters is the best combination of firepower, durability, cost and synergy with the rest of our army.

[Morticon]

Thank you for your input gentlemen!

 

I think some of you are missing the point here. If you are dropping in DC or sang guards you can only deploy them 8” from an enemy. So even if you destroy the bubble wrap or transport in shooting, chances are that you won’t be able to charge the things you WANTt to charge in turn one. This leaves a big chunk of your army wounrable to the vast majority of the enemies firepower or protected counter cc units when the wrap disengages or the transport blows up. Am I the only one seeing the major flaw here?

 

This is the biggest issue with 8th as a system imho, and part of what I raised in the open letter - though, one of the solutions for it was implemented (make them hit harder). 

 

But, no, you're not wrong.  And no, it is a major flaw. 

 

This is why there will need to be layering of assaults and reserves. 

 

It's also why I would predict armies like AM or armies that can ally or easily bring in AM units being at the top for a considerable amount of time - probably until we get a meta-breaking army, or a strategy that prevents a unit from fleeing from combat.  

 

Literally though, that one strategy would single handedly change the meta:

 

CP 1/3.

 

"Prevent either one or two enemy units from falling back from close combat in their phase"

 

Done.  That little card (I believe) completely changes the game.  

But, will have to see how it goes. 

[swordofmandulis]

Morticon, completely agree and was really hoping to see something that made falling back a tough decision at least, like taking D3 mortal wounds or the unit being able to pile in and fight again. But yeah flat out stopping them falling back would be awesome too.