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[Schlitzaf]

If a GK Army plays like a GK Armys it’s a GK Army. A GK Army utilizing AM Units for bodies but employs rapid deep striking and fast shooting with Storm Bolters, with a second punch follow up in Melee. It’s a GK Army.

 

A GK and even Deathwatch Army will be very similar style mid field list utilizing various insertion methods. To get at their targets.

[Gentlemanloser]

So a raptors army that deep strikes sternguard, and strikes from the shadows hard hitting cc units is a Grey Knight army becuase they play the same way?

 

 

And commisar k continues to ignore the points everyone else is making and just tries to continually ram its all soup as an explaination down our throats.

 

I wonder what the excuse will be when neceons, tau and orks can't ally with any other codexes...

[Gerhard]

He should. All that is happening in this thread is everyone talking past eachother and not willing to consider the others point. I’m taking from it what I can use and moving on.

[Gentlemanloser]

Commissar k has no point. We've refuted it constanly.

 

And we can't have a discussion when he refuses point blank to ignore our points.

 

At this point its little more then trolling.

[Gentlemanloser]

Let me address another red herring.

 

Eldar can soup using different craftworlds.

 

Yes they can. In a single dex.

 

In that case, the GK dex (alongside bangels and dangels) is objectively the worst dex released. As it has no option for in codex soup.

 

Unlike even the Ad Mech.

[Schlitzaf]

Gentle to a certain extent yes. Black Templars and Space Wolves are similar mid field firefight lists that leverage cheap backrow (MSU Crusaders and Long Fangs), both have high value non-tax troops and list building a good BT or SW list will leverage that. Puppies value comes out in the ease of flexibility of switching between Firefight and Melee on a Squad Level utilizing outflank strategem to force the enemy to engage a battle on their terms while threatening the center with Templars come in our ability to specialize our squads to a greater degree while playing Faux Tide.

 

The core lists and playstyle are the same however. If you include allies, those smaller differences however become highlighted. A Templar list likely focus on the tide center or MSU Firefight units including allies for backrow and flanking. While Space Wolves leveraging instead their outflank and ability for their squads to run more solo will include a force to hold center and anchor backfield.

 

Are the armies similar? Yes. Are they the same no. Your ability to clear chaff and switch to anti-elite and monster in melee is very different than a Raptor or Raven Stern list whose firefight can hold in melee.

 

GK (in theory) excel at chaff clearing then closing in to hit monsters with their multiple damage weapons where Stern are better vs medium armor (both infantry and tank) with their -2. Very similar but different.

[Holier Than Thou]

 

It's a ridiculous argument to say it's ok for one Codex (GK) to be bad because you can mix it with other things. Each Codex should be of similar power to each other Codex. Yes, mixing them will give stronger results but Codex against Codex should be an even battle.

What is ridiculous is the assumption this is a codex vs codex game.

Good luck with the lamentation.

Ok, so what is Games Workshop's marketing strategy for the Grey Knights Codex?

 

Buy the Grey Knights Codex, it's crap but don't worry because you can buy some other Codices that are better.

 

You really don't have a clue, do you?

[Gentlemanloser]

Schilt, so what makes an army a GK army?

 

It can't be playstyle. As other armies can play with the same atyle. And GK have multiple different playstyles.

 

Honestly the only answer that stands scrutiny is your army is the keyword you decide to base your detachments on.

 

An army is only a GK army if you choose keyword GK.

 

And *all* multi codex armies are imperial Armies. Not GK.

[Schlitzaf]

A GK List has excellent chaff clearing via shooting and ability to take on monsters in melee. This is done via High Volume Shots like Storm Bolters, Pyscannons etc and in melee things like Force Weapons, be it natural STR 6 from 4th or Hammerhand from 5th. In 8th, Force Weapons achieve a similar factor. Units can act better solo due to having weapons to take on chaff and high wound elite in melee. Core Units can forward deploy seizing momentum. However they are weak v Medium-Heavy Armor Vechicle form range with only Pyscannons and Riflemen Dreads (whom even back in the day were poor at killing heavy armor). Their weapons can inflict damage on light armor via volume of fire.

 

And unable to better utilize synergy due to expensive point innate Point costs. Forcing units to act in a more solo capacity. They lack long range firepower on cheap platforms and forced to instead rely on getting in melee. Additionally while excellent deployment options their Force has lackluster movement once deployed. Their specialized platforms are walking or forced to transported acting as a second wave. Making it important and vital to assign the proper to the proper task.

 

GK excel vs an army like Nids and Daemons with loads of trash, low armor/reliant on IV’s. Where the lack of AP on range is less of an issue and getting in close can easily kill monsters with multiple damage weapons.

[TheCastigator]

I would also point out that, even under the beta rules, GK will still dominate the psychic phase -- which is as much about denying powers as it is about inflicting mortal wounds. The change with only allowing a SINGLE ATTEMPT per phase, rather than attempting failed powers once per psyker, is a big boost to our already awesome psychic defense. Yes, we will probably only get 2ish tiny smites off, which is less good, as it forces us to look at Purge and Vortex a little more to inflict that damage. However, I would expect that GK (and probably Tzeentch) armies will somehow be exempt from beta smite limit in time. 

Brotherhood of psykers remains a very solid chapter trait, certainly better than than the majority of those in the SM book. 

I am also confused at the apparent expectation that single chapter books should have multiple chapter traits. I mean BA and DA sort of do with Deathwing, Death Company, etc, but a pure list of any of those still won't be competitive at the highest level. You'll still need to blend the regular marine elements to cover the specialized units, whether sanguinary guard, black knights and the like. Is that soup? I don't know.  

GK are about the surgical application of force and getting into combat with hammers and DKs to kill the hardest targets, which, admittedly, is really difficult in this edition without being able to hold space in the midfield at the outset. That is why cheap screens, scouts, scout sentinels, or anything with a pregame move/special deployment is essential for top tier lists. If GK suddenly had access to a scout equivalent -- say neophytes pressed into service out of desperation -- would we cry foul over that change to the fluff? Such a change would increase the competitiveness of the book immediately. If interceptors could make a scout move, I suspect they would be in most lists. 

GK are clearly designed to be a alpha/deep strike army. I do think some acceptance of that as intentional is needed here. Blood angels are clearly an alpha strike list as well, and they will absolutely fold if they don't cripple you outright. Where does that leave them? Dark Angels are shaping up to be a solid midrange shooting army with one or two hammer units in a list, and are probably the most complete of the three, though will be totally reliant on plasma weapons. (If you can kill the hammer unit -- probably black knights -- you're doing it right.)

 

And yes, like every book, some of our units need to be recosted. Of them, purifiers and terminators need the most help. That said, I have found that my GK list has been solid and in the majority of games that I've played. Am I winning a tournament with it? No. Am I reliably winning and making games close? Definitely.  

[Gentlemanloser]

Castigator, that's already the rule. The beta rules don't change that...

 

Schlit, what happens when you don't run a GK army based on the premise you have set?

 

Is it no longer a GK army?

 

Also lol no. We don't dominate nids. It's the other way round. I know you don't play GK. Atm my regular opponent is a nid player and i face him weekly. Please accept that the new nids dominate us in every single phase of the game.

 

Using a single codex.

 

They have better chaff shooting than us. 90 S4 shots from a unit of devil gaunts that have a strat to shoot twice.

 

They have far better long range shooting than us. Exocrines, tyranofexes with rupture cannons. Biovorse. Hive guard.

 

They have a stronger psychic phase. Shadows in the warp. Kronos warlord to deal mortal wounds on failed casts. Strat to force 1d6 casts. Neurothropes for cheap smite spam that heal themselves. Can easily reach same number of psychic units as we can.

 

Better cc. Most big bugs will eat in cc. The swarm Lord is an absolute beast.

 

Better mortal wounds delivery. I'm just going to say biovore here.

 

Chaff screening units. From the ultra cheap rippers to the gant spawning tervigon.

 

Deep strike through units and strats.

 

Moral immunity through synapse.

 

And this is just scratching the surface.

 

Nids are as capable as Guard, but better.

[Schlitzaf]

Castigator, that's already the rule. The beta rules don't change that...

 

Schlit, what happens when you don't run a GK army based on the premise you have set?

 

Is it no longer a GK army?

 

Also lol no. We don't dominate nids. It's the other way round. I know you don't play GK. Atm my regular opponent is a nid player and i face him weekly. Please accept that the new nids dominate us in every single phase of the game.

 

Using a single codex.

Does Kronos dominate or Nids Dominate? Or this the biovore spam thing. Because while it might not play out this way, you should be able to dominate Nids. You lose your physics yes. But your Weaponry and Squad setup is geared to face Nidzilla Armies.

 

As for Grey Knights armies not following the premise I laid out. Your not playing to your strengths. A BT Player could choose to completely forgo the Crusader Squad and the Helm. Utilizing only the Champion or Helbrect and a Vangaurd Force.

 

That Force isn’t leveraging the BT Strength in any useful fashion. A GK Force trying to play a Static Gunline, surrenders half the army ability and strength. As an army your job is to best leverage your strength and cover your weaknesses.

 

GK is chaff clearing and then following up with a punch from Force Weapons on more elite units. Utilizing the shooting and melee firepower that is normally on two different elite units on one Squad. A GKZilla list with Noughts and Dreadknight could be fun, but it would surrender your flexibility and deployment option.

 

Mechanical Identity is closely tied to leveraging your abilities.

 

Edit Looking at your lists you posted in Army Lists you have an issue I see a lot of marine players have. No Bodies. A small force but no boots on ground.

[Gentlemanloser]

No bodies is the GK army. That's why we're Elite. We're lucky to have 20/25 pagk.

 

My last list spammed 40 pagk. To the exclusion of really anything else. Didn't help.

 

Nids dominate. Play them with GK if you wish to disagree.

 

We're not set up to dominate nidzilla. We can hardly damage thier big bugs at range. Thier cc units (stealers, swarmy) have in built invulnerable saves. And the only thing we really have to face them in CC are hammers.

 

Also thier CC units should be Kraken, who will fall back and charge again for strike first. They theres the acid blood strat.

 

Seriously, play versus nids first. I promise you you will change your tune.

 

The lack of in game experience is showing in these responses.

 

Stealers daisy chained to a broodlord have 5 attacks. With rending claws that in a 6 to wound pretty much negate our saves. They are fast enough to hit first turn without needing to ds. Heaven forbid a swarmlord is set up to let them move and advace a second time in the psychic phase. Not a psychic power either.

 

Oh and 3d6 pick highest to advance is the icing on the cake.

 

"GK is chaff clearing".

 

Great when you face an opponent with no T3 chaff eh?

 

 

Also i don't care if it's not optimal but you don't answer if paying a gk list not to your standard is a gk list or not.

 

Not a single person in this thread has even attempted to robustly define what a GK army is.

 

The only answer is what faction keyword you choose for your army. Anything else is easily dismantled as incorrect.

[Capt. Mytre]

It's funny listening to people who don't play GK tell us how GK play.

[Schlitzaf]

I did. And have fought that unit. I set my Crusader Squad to receive their charge. It might get badly mauled. But then the Swarm dead on my turn. I use my ‘Scout’ (Rattling) to deploy flanks push back their unit. Use my Reivars, and other deep Strikers (Scions, through I could easily take Reivars 3-4 and achieve a similar affect) to act as screens. For my front then threaten his backfield biovores with Ponies (Or 2 more Reivar or even Assault Marine Squads if I stayed pure). While using my Heavy Bolter Gaurd to screen my Lascannon Teams (could be Crusader Squads and Devies respectively if I wanted to be pure) with my Crusader Squad/Intercessor Center (Or left flank) advancing and set to recieve.

 

Keeping his force both spread out to handle my 10 Reserves, while able to push a position with my ‘Center’. And able to bring to bear my primarily Units and with 25 drops (Or 23 depending on how I need to deploy Rats), 10 of which are Reserves I can see most of the enemy force before I deploy my own. Keeping them spread out both to handle how I deploy which will be a relative unknown quantity by the time I started putting units down. Even then I can deploy my Bikers or HeavyInfantry first to continue to act as puesdo Reserves as their deployment is less meaningful.

 

I’d personally do 2 10 Man Strike Squads w/DoubleCannon, 2 Terminators with Triple Hammers, 1 NDKGM w/ Psi&Tele, 1 BrotherCapt w/Hammer, 2 Doom Glaives, and 2 Purgation w/ Double Cannon. You have 10 Drops. 6 Command Points. (You could replace Doom Glaives and Purgators with an ally or another Unit). You come down PowerArmor Shield Terminators. Use your Storm Bolters to clean chaff. Do some damage on the big things (start getting them damaged to reduce their WS/BS) with Pyscannons. Use Brother Cpt to smite with Purgators and Glaives out of shadow range. With the Stealers let them hit your Dreads by placing Dreads either front or flank depending. Then pull Dread out. To open up your dakka.

 

I know some of choices are subpar (Terminators) but those choices open Battlelion and give you bodies and flexibility which you’d otherwise lack. Of course you could do same rerranging a simple switch being switch 1 Terminator into 4 Man Paladin with Double Hammer and give Brother Cpt a Silencer. In any case. If your case or argument is “how you fight this cheese” same I do vs every cheese smile and take analyzing the board. To see how best respond to the situation

[Danarc]

If you love so much GK codex play GK.

but it is clear that you never played GK armies. Our alpha strike is good, but then we can only die. In my last game against BT my 30 pagk in DS made BT player scared but after the first turn (in wich with 120 SB shots I only killed 7 veterans and 80 was under Draigo’s aura and the other 40 under GMDK one) in the following 2 turns I lost all but 1 pagk. 10 pagk in CC (18 attacks with falchions and 2 with hammer for turn) with a CM died. Our CC is useless. Even with psichyc weapons.

But it is clear that your aim is only troll us. So don’t make me bestemmiare, please.

 

So if you like GK codex, play it and then come here and teach us how to play GK. but after some game. Becouse now you are only making fantHammer.

[Gentlemanloser]

Schlit. Do it with GK.

 

We don't have those options. No scouts. No jump packs to avoid screens. No lascannon devs.

 

Go on, next game try it as GK.

 

Also your not playing GK with terminators. By your own admission they are sub par and therefore not playing to GK strengths.

 

Neither is taking the woeful psycannon on PA units...

[Schlitzaf]

So either he rolled twice as well as he should have or he was in cover. In either case I never said the GK book wasn’t weak. Only that you cannot expect to be pure and not have serious army based mechanical flaws.

 

Second you shot Units in cover. Or he rolled twice as good as he should have. You shouldn’t have done that. Deployed safely at 24” and start kiting. Third “They all died.” Yes and my 2 Intercessors, 2 14 Man Crusaders normally die from turn 3-5 after my deep strikes units are cleared.

 

Also just so your aware you realize a Vangaurd with Pack and PowSword is 22 Points right? Your GK are 21 Points. Get same number of PowWeapon attacks and 1-3 more Bolter Shots. That is elite caliber shooting and melee. You are getting that for less then the price of Vangaurd. If you want another comparison, company Vets are 22 Points same equipment but no deep strike.

 

All they get is a bodyguard rule. Your melee and shooting is not bad. What is bad your Terminator are 3-5 Point too much, purifiers need an additional attack, Purgators should have teleport Assault. All your characters need a 20-30 Points cost reduction in general, and Brother Captain needs a new buff preferably one that doubles smite damage.

 

What isn’t wrong with your book is the fact you solid Troops, reasonably costed Heavies (Assault Cannons are 21 Points with worse AP. But are paying 7 more Points for 2 more attacks). The Razorspam folks love is 114 Points for 12 Shots. While your closest equivalent unit Purgators are 129 (more like 160). For 8 Shots. While it isn’t awesome or better than Razorspam you could be paying 24-28 per Pyscannon if we were basing it more directly off Assault cannons. But the fact is our platforms is walking. And less durable

 

Compare it to an autocannon at 12 Points for 2 Shots at Double damage. Your paying two more points for two additional shots. Which isn’t a bad place to be. Now then. Back to the discussion.

 

GK have problems, never said they didn’t. But if the GK become competitive viable and better than AM, as I feel a lot of folks are asking as a single dex the entirety of the Imperium Keyword becomes invalidated.

 

And then currently acting like everything in the book is terrible and suffering to play with it. It has valid setups and units. Is is it teir 1? Is their not changes that should happen, perhaps. (I listed a few earlier). Acting like the Soup doesn’t exist and couldn’t be used to help your army while not deluding your feel however is wrong.

 

Taking the list I mentioned earlier drop the Doom Glaives, and Purgators throw in an AM Battlelion. The list functionally stays the same while your alpha and degree chaff clearing is lessened. You have a more roboust army. That will still feel like a GK Army on the tabletop.

 

But no clearly I have literally no idea about anything, and I am bull:cussting, while trying to troll. A strong or weak dex both exist. Ignoring the fact you can use the Imperium Keyword to atleast alleviate that unlike older editions is wrong. Because taking an ally won’t mean the army isn’t GK.

 

The army will still play like a GK one.

 

@Gentle, I would but you wouldn’t consider my force GK. Also my Force doesn’t use Jetpacks. I used a lot of Reivars

[Gentlemanloser]

The entirety of the Imperium keyword becomes invalid?

 

Lol its xmas eve, you might have had a little too much egg nog.

 

And we're back to just take lias and raptors and a supreme command of GMNDK and your army is still a GK army.

 

At this point RD i think you can safely lock this thread. Its going no where.

[Capt. Mytre]

I did. And have fought that unit. I set my Crusader Squad to receive their charge. It might get badly mauled. But then the Swarm dead on my turn. I use my ‘Scout’ (Rattling) to deploy flanks push back their unit. Use my Reivars, and other deep Strikers (Scions, through I could easily take Reivars 3-4 and achieve a similar affect) to act as screens. For my front then threaten his backfield biovores with Ponies (Or 2 more Reivar or even Assault Marine Squads if I stayed pure). While using my Heavy Bolter Gaurd to screen my Lascannon Teams (could be Crusader Squads and Devies respectively if I wanted to be pure) with my Crusader Squad/Intercessor Center (Or left flank) advancing and set to recieve.

 

Keeping his force both spread out to handle my 10 Reserves, while able to push a position with my ‘Center’. And able to bring to bear my primarily Units and with 25 drops (Or 23 depending on how I need to deploy Rats), 10 of which are Reserves I can see most of the enemy force before I deploy my own. Keeping them spread out both to handle how I deploy which will be a relative unknown quantity by the time I started putting units down. Even then I can deploy my Bikers or HeavyInfantry first to continue to act as puesdo Reserves as their deployment is less meaningful.

 

I’d personally do 2 10 Man Strike Squads w/DoubleCannon, 2 Terminators with Triple Hammers, 1 NDKGM w/ Psi&Tele, 1 BrotherCapt w/Hammer, 2 Doom Glaives, and 2 Purgation w/ Double Cannon. You have 10 Drops. 6 Command Points. (You could replace Doom Glaives and Purgators with an ally or another Unit). You come down PowerArmor Shield Terminators. Use your Storm Bolters to clean chaff. Do some damage on the big things (start getting them damaged to reduce their WS/BS) with Pyscannons. Use Brother Cpt to smite with Purgators and Glaives out of shadow range. With the Stealers let them hit your Dreads by placing Dreads either front or flank depending. Then pull Dread out. To open up your dakka.

 

I know some of choices are subpar (Terminators) but those choices open Battlelion and give you bodies and flexibility which you’d otherwise lack. Of course you could do same rerranging a simple switch being switch 1 Terminator into 4 Man Paladin with Double Hammer and give Brother Cpt a Silencer. In any case. If your case or argument is “how you fight this cheese” same I do vs every cheese smile and take analyzing the board. To see how best respond to the situation

 

Please stop. Why do you keep suggesting psycannons? They are mathematically inferior to psilencers on all targets but single wound high save models - but that's something you wouldn't know, given you don't know how GK play. Do you even know how many shots it would take to damage a 12W T7/3+ model to 6W? Assuming that none of them move, they are all in 24" range and that the enemy has no buffs to them, psycannon: 36 shots/9 psycannons. That's more than your army has and incredibly unlikely given they will have to move to be in range. Same situation for psilencers: 41 shots/7 psilencers. Remember, you haven't even killed this model, only brought down a single model by 6W.

 

GK either have to use razorbacks or stormravens as anti-armour/toughness and you have none. The other option is to get in close combat. Good luck with that, you have a pathetic ~27% chance to make it into combat after deepstriking, and if you're opponent has any brain cells to rub together, will have screened his armies most important units. Now you have to spend a turn or two dealing with chaff (don't even begin on dealing with spawning termagants), to even try killing his must kill units. You also have to deal with being shot at after deepstriking, followed up by being charged by superior CC units.

 

Please, seriously, stop. You don't know what you're talking about, it's painfully obvious.

[Schlitzaf]

It takes 5 Lascannons to do 7 Wounds or 125 Points (or actually closer to 6.65) (If they are Gaurdsman 6 Lascannons and 120 Points).

To the that same Model

Vs your 9 Pyscannons doing 6 Damage for 126 Points

....

So your telling me so we are clear. That a Pyscannons is bad at dealing damage to monsters, when the epitome of monster/tanking is the same? Just so we are clear

Your complaining your Pyscannons are just as Point for point efficient as Lascannons? Now then, the reason they are not. Is they are stuck on a 19 Point Chassis. 286 Points for 8 Pyscannons on Purgators. Compared to the 255 Points for 5 Lascannons if Marines or 280 Points if 6 Lascannons, then compared 156 Points if Gaurdsman.

 

You are spending 52 Points minimum on those Purgators for Force Weapons they no longer have (and mysteriously losing those makes you cheaper than the more expensive Devies). But sense you are forced to pay them no matter your armament it adds up.

 

Now you want to try this game on me again?

[Gentlemanloser]

BS3+?

 

Each LC does;

0.7 Hit. 0.5 Wound. 0.42 unsaved. 1.47 damage.

 

Each Psycannon does;

2.7 Hit. 1.35 Wound. 0.67 unsaved. 0.67 damage.

 

It takes 4.1 lascannons to deal 6w.

 

It takes 9 psycannons to deal 6w. Over double the number. Plus psycannons have half the range.

 

It gets worse when you up it to T8...

 

Lascannons are 25 points so 102.5 points.

 

Psycannons are 20 points so 180 points just to be as effective. At half range.

[Capt. Mytre]

It takes 5 Lascannons to do 7 Wounds or 125 Points (or actually closer to 6.65) (If they are Gaurdsman 6 Lascannons and 120 Points).

To the that same Model

Vs your 9 Pyscannons doing 6 Damage for 126 Points

....

So your telling me so we are clear. That a Pyscannons is bad at dealing damage to monsters, when the epitome of monster/tanking is the same? Just so we are clear

Your complaining your Pyscannons are just as Point for point efficient as Lascannons? Now then, the reason they are not. Is they are stuck on a 19 Point Chassis. 286 Points for 8 Pyscannons on Purgators. Compared to the 255 Points for 5 Lascannons if Marines or 280 Points if 6 Lascannons, then compared 156 Points if Gaurdsman.

 

You are spending 52 Points minimum on those Purgators for Force Weapons they no longer have (and mysteriously losing those makes you cheaper than the more expensive Devies). But sense you are forced to pay them no matter your armament it adds up.

 

Now you want to try this game on me again?

 

We're taking about what's efficient for GK. Purgation squads as a means to kill high toughness/armoured models is horribly inefficient.

 

A storm raven, decked out, has 2 multimeltas/typhoon missiles, two las cannons, two storm strike missiles. It costs 338/334 points. It has no penalty for moving, it can shoot from 48" away and you can buff all of the attacks with Astral Aim. It can also be a transport for your dread/infantry squad. It can easily be positioned so you can see what you want to shoot at.

 

On the other side, we have 2 squads of purgators for 8 psycannons, min cost 306 points. They are limited to 24", cannot all receive astral aim, have a negative -1 to hit after moving (remember, 24" range). Enjoy bringing 8 psycannons to bear on a single target. Oh, and you also don't deal enough damage on average to do 6 damage.

 

This is why it's clear you don't play GK. You're using flat values, but not actually accounting for what it's like in game.

 

Checkmate I guess.

[Corvus Fortis]

I didn't want to interfere, but can keep silence no more. 

 

 

Assault Cannons are 21 Points with worse AP. But are paying 7 more Points for 2 more attacks. 

 

Assault cannons cost 2 points more (yes, the correct prices is one on Terminator models, PA ones exclude power weapons which is 6 points), and has worse strength, not AP. And what is worse strenght (especially strength 7 ws 6)? This mean, that AC wounds everything exactly on the same rolls as Psycannon, except t7 and t12. Have you ever seen t14 anywhere? I didn't. But AC is 2 more shots. Potentially 2 more wounds - 2 more dead devastators with lascannons that threatens your GMNDK, difference between degenerated and not degenerated vehicles, dead and alive enemy character. 2 more shots is way better than +1S, and especiallyw when it is S7. 

 

 

 The Razorspam folks love is 114 Points for 12 Shots. While your closest equivalent unit Purgators are 129 (more like 160). For 8 Shots. While it isn’t awesome or better than Razorspam you could be paying 24-28 per Pyscannon if we were basing it more directly off Assault cannons. But the fact is our platforms is walking. And less durable 

 

Razorbacks are more durable, razorbacks do not loose quarter of its efficiency by every lost wound, Razorbacks can tranport models, razorbacks can be buffed by Girlyman and could be by Azrael before the codex. Razorspam is not just better. It is uncomparebly better. Purgatiors are not even close, by any bit. These are different dimensions.

 

 

 

Compare it to an autocannon at 12 Points for 2 Shots at Double damage. Your paying two more points for two additional shots. Which isn’t a bad place to be.

 

 Autocannon is d2. If you want to take down a Dreadnought, you need 4 unsaved autocannon wounds. To take down it with Psycannon you need 8 unsaved wounds. It means, that autocannon is cheaper, but have the same damage output. But it has TWICE the range. It doesn't need to move at all in most games to reach it's target. And again, Psycannon is 20, not 12.  So it is almost twice the cost.

 

 

 

It takes 5 Lascannons to do 7 Wounds or 125 Points (or actually closer to 6.65) (If they are Gaurdsman 6 Lascannons and 120 Points). 
To the that same Model 
Vs your 9 Pyscannons doing 6 Damage for 126 Points

 

 

 

Weapons is not only the number of wounds per model. You tell that 8 psycannon purgators are almost the same cost as 5 las devastators and deals pretty same damage.

 

1) in your statistics devs still cheaper by 31(!) and deals 1 more wounds (and it can be a lot sometimes);

2)devastators have twice the range, that means they are out of most dangers from their shooting positions that Purgations have to deal this;

3)they also do not have to move turn 1, so they do not suffer -1 penalty for moving (that purgators have to suffer ALWAYS unless they wait  someone comes into their range which is very-very unlikely);

4)they can be hidden from shooting in a single razorback, 2 purgation squads need a rhino at least. Razorback is a strong weapon platform itself, rhino is only dedicated tranport and more of a tax. Purgators in rhino will be shooting only turn 2 with -1 to hit, lasdevs same but turn 1;

5)Purgators do not have Cherub and Signum, they also do not have a way to reroll to-wound;

6)To deploy 2 squads of purgators you need either to transport them, loosing presious turns of shooting, or spend 2 cp. Devastators are in range from turn 1.

 

And so on.

 

Game is more than pure mathhammer. Psycannon on stats compared to stormbolter is better in every way - more shots, more strength, rending, But what in fact? It is almost always -1 to hit because GK always on move, SB has the same number of shots because GK want to be close, it is only +1 to wound against all the targets. So what we have in the end? -1 to hit comensated by +1 to wound. So we pay 18 more poinst just for -1 rend. 

 

And on topic of "soup".

 

Consider basic pure GK list - GMNDK, strikes to fill battalion, razorbacks or stromraven, apothecary, paladins maybe. So it has to be ok against any other pure list and weak against soup lists? How does it suppose to deal with Guilly, Chronos with lascannon limit? Pure Ultramarines. Shadowsword, couple of punishers\executioners, some wyverns screened by conscripts? Pure Cadian list. Rangers, dark reapers in serpents, crimson hunters and hemlocks? Pure Alaitoc. This monobuilds is more powerful than some soup stuff. Soup elements can make them more powerful. But their core is strong enough by itself. GK cannot have core as strong as this ones. This is because they have some serious problems on field, like no ranged anti-vehicle. Psychic powers was a certain compensation. But what will it look like when even smite cut down? 

[Schlitzaf]

And you notice I never once said anything about Grey Knights not being a weak Codex. I simply said that you cannot expect to be teir 1 by itself without invalidating the rest of the Imperium (case in point AM).

 

But their is more to it then that. Frankly you weren’t listening. I said they were overpriced I even explained how they were overpriced you aren’t listening. However the fact is Soup does exist. And it does help. Playing a pure list then screaming you want something your Codex was built to lack. Is inane.

 

Your Chassis should be cheaper. You should have 15-16 Point models not 19 Points. I never once said your Codex wasn’t weak. Gentle claimed your only good Unit was Dreadknight and any time you include a non-GK Unit your instant non-GK Army. Which is wrong.

 

Then he tried to tell me to make a GK Army. And then said how you do that. While further implying I am speaking out of my ass. If you bothered to read you’d have realize that. The mathammer was to prove a point. Your weapons aren’t bad. It’s the Chassis they are on that is bad.