Why are we being hyped as ‚strongest army‘?

[Blackcadian]

Going through some forums I keep reading how CSM are the strongest army right now, and while surely the internet isnt the be all end all its still an indicator if not somewhat of a consensus.

 

But while it is nice to hear praise after all this time down at the bottom I just dont see it? I don’t see any autoincludes (Genestealers, Exocrines, Biovores...), or amazing synergy (Gulliman) or even brutal characters (Mortarion, Magnus). Even looking at Forgeworld theres some strong options but nothing singularly strong that rivals other armies go-to units.

 

Maybe I am blind/or probably just not experienced enough in 8th, but apart from some Alpha Legion shenanigans, where are we the strongest army around?

[Zodd1888]

Issue: Malefic Lords, Brim/Blue Horrors, Smite, and Alpha Legion

 

The combination of decent overall Strategems, Psychic Powers, and the above two being so cheap really compounded things. The Alpha Legion strats also helped this mindset. Further, since we're one of the most popular armies there are a lot of players running these lists and we also had a early codex.

 

Mark my words: CSM, while very good, aren't OP. Eldar and Tyranids are real boogeymen, but we do pack some scares.

 

Except TSons.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

First time I see something like this. 

 

Imperial Guard was the best army, until FAQ and CA. 

I don't see CSM being ridiculously better than Eldar for eg. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Issue: Malefic Lords, Brim/Blue Horrors, Smite, and Alpha Legion

 

The combination of decent overall Strategems, Psychic Powers, and the above two being so cheap really compounded things. The Alpha Legion strats also helped this mindset. Further, since we're one of the most popular armies there are a lot of players running these lists and we also had a early codex.

 

Mark my words: CSM, while very good, aren't OP. Eldar and Tyranids are real boogeymen, but we do pack some scares.

 

Except TSons.

Magnus+Mortarion+ Knight is also up there in terms of craziness (with some enabling from Brimstones and/or Cultists).

 

The FW "Super Chicken" was a big problem in tournaments that allowed him.

 

When Blight Haulers come out, we may see an uptick in Death Guard power level (especially since their monetary pricing, easy-build nature, and points cost will facilitate spamming). 

 

TSons were fine when everyone was using Indexes.....once Codexes started getting released, not so much. Even getting access to the "basic" CSM stratagems (Vets, Killshot, etc.) will vastly improve a pure TSon army (right now, you can do it by adding a small number of allies).

[WarriorFish]

I wouldn't worry. It's just some people on the Internet - what do they know? "Best" is entirely subjective, as while some armies are strong (or rather, have strong builds) that doesn't mean you can decide who is top dog. The game is too complex for that, the best you can do is roughly compare codices and even that's somewhat arbitrary.

 

So I'm sure others are saying the same of some other armies after all, and they can't all be right :lol:

[bozo69pd]

I thought my DG were OP until last night when a Ynarri 6 jet 3 wave serpent force tabled me on turn 4. Granted my opponent had some insane lucky high damage rolls with his lances, and I fought hard with good disgusting resilience rolls. I think the highlight of my night was when his cat lady and a jet on his last wound came to close too blight hauler. Explosion stratagem knocked it right out of the sky lol.

 

You have to keep in mind though, we are talking about winning ITC tournaments. These play very differently than the base game. You have to play smart, and to the mission. Alpha legion/nurglings are AMAZING for starting on every objective on the board which means superior scoring on turn 1 right away. These units have durability that can survive alpha strike armies. Turn 1 warptime monsters tearing into the enemy position is great too. This all combines to form a soup that is good for ITC missions but not terribly overpowered (you still have to play very very cautiously and strategically).

 

They can definitely lose in a casual game especially if someone knows they are fighting Chaos and list tailors.

 

 

 

When Blight Haulers come out, we may see an uptick in Death Guard power level (especially since their monetary pricing, easy-build nature, and points cost will facilitate spamming). 

 

I ran a unit of 3 alongside several plague marines + support elites. They were cool, but IMO 3 drones with plague spitters is superior.

Edited December 4, 2017 by bozo69pd

[Lord Marshal]

Nobody played CSM in 7th, ergo, people see a lot more CSM now and assume it must be because they're overpowered/broken/really strong.

 

In reality it's just CSM players being able to bring their armies off the shelf without 'em being tabled turn one anymore.

[Jofus]

I regularly play against a Necron player and struggle against him. Though it does not help when everytime I almost get a squad down, 80% get back up.

[Stross]

Personally I don't use brimstones, never, I see them a bit broken with their 4++ invulnarable save and under Changling protection. 

Malefic lords are end now. As a unit. With 80 pts it is too expensive to take them just as HQ. 

Alpha legion trait is great, but no one tells that Raven Guard or one of the Mechanicus forge is OP because of -1 to hit. It doesn't help against horde armies. 

I still think OP are Eldar with Dark Reapers and Ultramarines with Gillyman. Because it is simply much more less you can do against them, especially if you are on second turn. 

Our "OP" can be destroyed rather quickly: 

1. Magnus/Mortarion/Knight/Lord of Skulls - focus of lascannon don't allow them to survive for another turn.

2. Obliterators - without screen or under focus of bolters even in cover they don't survive that long

3. Abaddon+terminators - really depends or charge roll and enemy can retreat on his turn and kill them.

4. A lot of psykers - depends on rolls and rolls of your enemy if he have psykers as well. 

5. Berzerkers or any other strong melee  - well, if they lucky enough to reach enemy, they done their purpose. Even with Rhino's it is risky. And it is too expensive to bring on Land Raider. 

6. Hellbrutes - we don't have something like Venerable Drednaught or Drednaughts with 8 toughtness. But we can bring Forgeworld. 

 

Do we have anything else? Except FW we don't have flyers (Helldrake is a joke now), broken daemon engines, rarely usable chaos space marines, strong bond with melee combat (we can't just stand and shoot as Guard, Eldar, Tau and Space marines). 

 

OP army? No. But still one of the strongest, indeed, in right hands.

[ChazSexington]

Personally I don't use brimstones, never, I see them a bit broken with their 4++ invulnarable save and under Changling protection. 

Malefic lords are end now. As a unit. With 80 pts it is too expensive to take them just as HQ. 

Alpha legion trait is great, but no one tells that Raven Guard or one of the Mechanicus forge is OP because of -1 to hit. It doesn't help against horde armies. 

I still think OP are Eldar with Dark Reapers and Ultramarines with Gillyman. Because it is simply much more less you can do against them, especially if you are on second turn. 

Our "OP" can be destroyed rather quickly: 

1. Magnus/Mortarion/Knight/Lord of Skulls - focus of lascannon don't allow them to survive for another turn.

2. Obliterators - without screen or under focus of bolters even in cover they don't survive that long

3. Abaddon+terminators - really depends or charge roll and enemy can retreat on his turn and kill them.

4. A lot of psykers - depends on rolls and rolls of your enemy if he have psykers as well. 

5. Berzerkers or any other strong melee  - well, if they lucky enough to reach enemy, they done their purpose. Even with Rhino's it is risky. And it is too expensive to bring on Land Raider. 

6. Hellbrutes - we don't have something like Venerable Drednaught or Drednaughts with 8 toughtness. But we can bring Forgeworld. 

 

Do we have anything else? Except FW we don't have flyers (Helldrake is a joke now), broken daemon engines, rarely usable chaos space marines, strong bond with melee combat (we can't just stand and shoot as Guard, Eldar, Tau and Space marines). 

 

OP army? No. But still one of the strongest, indeed, in right hands.

 

Mostly our units benefit from the synergy we have with Daemons, in addition being able to go Battalion (more CPs) with Legion Tactics much cheaper than Loyalists (Cultists vs. Scouts). Brimstone Horrors are also incredibly good Smite shields and chaff due to 4++. We have some incredibly good Stratagems as well. 

 

Magnus has a 3++, re-rolling ones. He can soak so much lascannon fire it isn't even funny. It takes so much firepower to kill him relative to other units. 

 

MoT Alpha Legion Obliterators with the Changeling are -2 to hit beyond 12". As plasma is what kills them best normally, they are now overheating on 3+.

 

Malefic Lords were (post-Chapter Approved) incredibly under priced. You could spam 6 of them, easily, in any list.

 

Alpha Legion Khorne Berzerkers can Infiltrate and hit the enemy T1 without paying for a Rhino (Remember, our CPs are relatively cheap). Alternatively, 20 in a Kharybdis, Warptime and/or re-roll Charges, declare charges against EVERYTHING within 12", then charge, pile in, fight, consolidate, pile in, fight, consolidate, pile in, fight, consolidate. That's up to 18+2D6" movement. You can basically ensure nothing survives within 12" of your initial starting point. 

[Prot]

Going through some forums I keep reading how CSM are the strongest army right now, and while surely the internet isnt the be all end all its still an indicator if not somewhat of a consensus.

 

 

 

Where do you keep reading this?

 

I've been playing Chaos since 3rd launched, and it's not been true since 3.5. "CSM" is different from Chaos though. Keep that in mind. If someone is playing the unpronouncable rainbow chicken from forgeworld, and Maelific lords, etc, etc... well this is hardly "CSM". Keep in mind almost everything that really worked for "Chaos" just got Re-approved by that chapter thing that just came out. ;)

[Knight of the Raven]

I know little about current chaos space marines or even 8th edition in general, but I do know this: when people say, whether in online or real life (the internet doesn't have the monopoly over not using the right words, after all) that an "army" is strong or overpowered, they very often really mean "this netlist/set of spammed units" is strong or overpowered.

 

Some people are astute enough to realize the nuance, as nicknames such as "Codex: Heldrakes" and "Codex: Winged Hive Tyrant" showed in earlier editions.

[Stross]

 

Mostly our units benefit from the synergy we have with Daemons, in addition being able to go Battalion (more CPs) with Legion Tactics much cheaper than Loyalists (Cultists vs. Scouts). Brimstone Horrors are also incredibly good Smite shields and chaff due to 4++. We have some incredibly good Stratagems as well. 

 

I can't say, that space marines are more expensive, than CSM. And if so, they have a lot units, a lot hq and a lot of other things, that still playable. We don't have any options for our Dark Apostle or Exalted Champion, we don't have anyone, who can rerolls 1 on wound, except DG for plagueweapon only. We don't have something like Razorbacks. We don't have normal and playable Land Raider. We stuck with broken Daemon Engines (I still use Defiler for fun, but it is hard to find a proper use for him). 

 

Yes, our Stratagems are good, not doubt in that. And we can get them a lot. But we can spend most of them on first turn. And do a lot of damage. But we don't have any refund with them, like Space Marines or Imperial Guard have. And yerstarday my opponent took  the assassin, who stole 3 my CP. That was a disaster. 

We are really depends on right use of them. One mistake can be fatal. 

 

Magnus has a 3++, re-rolling ones. He can soak so much lascannon fire it isn't even funny. It takes so much firepower to kill him relative to other units. 

 

yeah, but on first turn of enemy he stuck with 4++, so it is possible to lose him. But still, yes, he is really great.

MoT Alpha Legion Obliterators with the Changeling are -2 to hit beyond 12". As plasma is what kills them best normally, they are now overheating on 3+.

 

Yerstarday that guy had almost all assassins, so Vindicare ended The Changling along side with scouts. So I can say, that it is really depends on positiong and with small range of obliterators it is hard to position them and keep Changling alive. I surrounded those guys with blob of 30 cultists and it prevented charged from enemy, but all three squads could not be positioned inside that blob because of their 40mm bases.

And I can tell they have another issue. Flyers can reach then without any problem. 

 

 

Malefic Lords were (post-Chapter Approved) incredibly under priced. You could spam 6 of them, easily, in any list.

Like brimstonse it is not that "challenging" to use them before. And now this unit is compleately useless for his points. And IG still have Primaris Psykers for 46 pts or something, which can do the same and cast another awesome stuff like -1 to hit and +1 to saving throws. 

 

 

Alpha Legion Khorne Berzerkers can Infiltrate and hit the enemy T1 without paying for a Rhino (Remember, our CPs are relatively cheap)

Of course, but this is a bit risky, if we don't get the first turn. And without rerolls and other support they are not that effective. We can drop lord, sorc, but as I said before, not Dark Apostle or Exalted Champion.

 

 

Alternatively, 20 in a Kharybdis, Warptime and/or re-roll Charges, declare charges against EVERYTHING within 12", then charge, pile in, fight, consolidate, pile in, fight, consolidate, pile in, fight, consolidate. That's up to 18+2D6" movement. You can basically ensure nothing survives within 12" of your initial starting point. 

This can work better since we can put Khârn, DA, EC with them. 

 

 

 Keep in mind almost everything that really worked for "Chaos" just got Re-approved by that chapter thing that just came out

Many armies without Codex probably think that we are very strong. But I can't understand if IG or Space Marine would tell that. But this only tell about their tactical genius for my opinion or inability to make a proper army list. 

And we was cutted from cheating unit, but other Codexes still have their overpowered toys (like Gilliman), except for Eldar (lost part of their Soul Burst) and IG (cut away from Concripts+commissar synergy)

[the jeske]

I wouldn't worry. It's just some people on the Internet - what do they know? "Best" is entirely subjective, as while some armies are strong (or rather, have strong builds) that doesn't mean you can decide who is top dog. The game is too complex for that, the best you can do is roughly compare codices and even that's somewhat arbitrary.

 

So I'm sure others are saying the same of some other armies after all, and they can't all be right

Well am not sure about that. If people post armies from large tournament all over the world, with different set of tournament packs being run [so lets say one ITC pack can't screw the data]. And the type of Chaos list turn up to be very simiular over and over again, then it seems like the interent does know a thing or two.  All good armies in 8th had 2-3 things in them. Swarms, multi shot weapons, smite spam . On and off gimik stuff that placed high was stuff like dual primarchs, 5-6 SR[till nerfed], multiple knight+G-man[till everyone started running smite spam], so skew builds that had some horrible match ups and required playing a pre set type of opponents to really do well [and could really take a nose dive like 2/3 or worse, if they did not].

 

 

Chaos good stuff was FW[broken points cost in initial months of 8thed], primarchs, demons. If you make or made a list with those things and had smite, swarms and multi shot weapons, your weapon automaticly became good. Stuff like AL that was added later, boosted some lower tier stuff[melee units like zerkers] in to workable range, but the really bad stuff[like csm] stayed as unusable as it was before.

 

IG (cut away from Concripts+commissar synergy)

 

Actually pointwise you can replace conscripts+commisars with normal IG squads and the lists work just fine. Have even more shoting now thanks to the hvy weapon teams normal IG dudes bring. Consrcipts are mostly a thing for soup lists now.

[WarriorFish]

You might want to look up to see the joke passing, be careful not to crock your neck ;)

[ChazSexington]

 

 

Mostly our units benefit from the synergy we have with Daemons, in addition being able to go Battalion (more CPs) with Legion Tactics much cheaper than Loyalists (Cultists vs. Scouts). Brimstone Horrors are also incredibly good Smite shields and chaff due to 4++. We have some incredibly good Stratagems as well. 

 

I can't say, that space marines are more expensive, than CSM. And if so, they have a lot units, a lot hq and a lot of other things, that still playable. We don't have any options for our Dark Apostle or Exalted Champion, we don't have anyone, who can rerolls 1 on wound, except DG for plagueweapon only. We don't have something like Razorbacks. We don't have normal and playable Land Raider. We stuck with broken Daemon Engines (I still use Defiler for fun, but it is hard to find a proper use for him). 

 

Yes, our Stratagems are good, not doubt in that. And we can get them a lot. But we can spend most of them on first turn. And do a lot of damage. But we don't have any refund with them, like Space Marines or Imperial Guard have. And yerstarday my opponent took  the assassin, who stole 3 my CP. That was a disaster. 

We are really depends on right use of them. One mistake can be fatal. 

 

Magnus has a 3++, re-rolling ones. He can soak so much lascannon fire it isn't even funny. It takes so much firepower to kill him relative to other units. 

 

yeah, but on first turn of enemy he stuck with 4++, so it is possible to lose him. But still, yes, he is really great.

MoT Alpha Legion Obliterators with the Changeling are -2 to hit beyond 12". As plasma is what kills them best normally, they are now overheating on 3+.

 

Yerstarday that guy had almost all assassins, so Vindicare ended The Changling along side with scouts. So I can say, that it is really depends on positiong and with small range of obliterators it is hard to position them and keep Changling alive. I surrounded those guys with blob of 30 cultists and it prevented charged from enemy, but all three squads could not be positioned inside that blob because of their 40mm bases.

And I can tell they have another issue. Flyers can reach then without any problem. 

 

 

Malefic Lords were (post-Chapter Approved) incredibly under priced. You could spam 6 of them, easily, in any list.

Like brimstonse it is not that "challenging" to use them before. And now this unit is compleately useless for his points. And IG still have Primaris Psykers for 46 pts or something, which can do the same and cast another awesome stuff like -1 to hit and +1 to saving throws. 

 

 

Alpha Legion Khorne Berzerkers can Infiltrate and hit the enemy T1 without paying for a Rhino (Remember, our CPs are relatively cheap)

Of course, but this is a bit risky, if we don't get the first turn. And without rerolls and other support they are not that effective. We can drop lord, sorc, but as I said before, not Dark Apostle or Exalted Champion.

 

 

Alternatively, 20 in a Kharybdis, Warptime and/or re-roll Charges, declare charges against EVERYTHING within 12", then charge, pile in, fight, consolidate, pile in, fight, consolidate, pile in, fight, consolidate. That's up to 18+2D6" movement. You can basically ensure nothing survives within 12" of your initial starting point. 

This can work better since we can put Khârn, DA, EC with them. 

 

 

 Keep in mind almost everything that really worked for "Chaos" just got Re-approved by that chapter thing that just came out

Many armies without Codex probably think that we are very strong. But I can't understand if IG or Space Marine would tell that. But this only tell about their tactical genius for my opinion or inability to make a proper army list. 

And we was cutted from cheating unit, but other Codexes still have their overpowered toys (like Gilliman), except for Eldar (lost part of their Soul Burst) and IG (cut away from Concripts+commissar synergy)

 

 

1 - I agree the Loyalists have a lot of options we don't have and I would love to see the real options be made available for Warpsmiths, Exalted Champions etc. However, for now our Stratagems/Psychic abilities synergise much better with our units and Marks than what the mewling Loyalists have. I mean... Endless Cacophony, Infiltrate, and Veterans of the Long War is incredible. Death Hex, Prescience, Warptime, Delightful Agonies etc. With 40 MoS autogun Cultists, if you go first, you can launch 160 shots (Endless Cacophony) with +1 to Hit (Prescience) and re-rolling 1s (Chaos Lord), +1 to Wound (Veterans of the Long War) against something without an invulnerable save (Death Hex). For retaliation, you have Delightful Agonies (5+ FnP) and possibly -1 to hit. Then, to add insult to injury, recycle them (if you autopass morale).

 

3 - There is no way you should let your opponent charge Obliterators. You space your Cultists 18" away, and Deep Strike is impossible between them. That's where Infiltrating 40 Cultists is amazing - you can prevent your opponent from Deep Striking T1 anywhere but deep in his own deployment zone. After I wisened up to this, nobody gets anything into my backfield.

4 - I agree the Primaris Psyker should've been nerfed harder when compared to the Malefic Lord, but Primaris Psyker spam isn't that prevalent. The Guard have some guys that die standing a lot better. 

 

5 - Everything can be shot and annihilated T1 this edition, but remember you infiltrate after you know who goes first. World Eaters have even won a GT with Rhino Rush if I remember correctly. 

[Wayniac]

In short, soup lists.  The biggest problem currently IMHO is that soup is the way to go because they require only one shared keyword, it should be more.  Between that and the -1 to hit traits being so amazingly good, it chops off huge swathes of options.

[the jeske]

You might want to look up to see the joke passing, be careful not to crock your neck

what is there to joke about meta game set ups? Do you joke about war or sports too?

[bozo69pd]

In short, soup lists.  The biggest problem currently IMHO is that soup is the way to go because they require only one shared keyword, it should be more.  Between that and the -1 to hit traits being so amazingly good, it chops off huge swathes of options.

Hmmm not always. A lot of stratagems/psychic require <LEGION> and ASTARTES, or NURGLE and DAEMON. Legions don't even count unless you only pull from units that legion can use. There is actually a fair amount of diversity, there is just a few bad eggs that are spoiling... and some of those (malefic lords) got nerfed into uselessness.

 

Also, there is like 4-5 armies with the -1 to hit trait... it isn't terribly overpowered if almost everyone can take it.

[the jeske]

soups are not [although it is nice to have a G-man that works on everything] about buffing everything with everything. It is no longer the case, but there was a time when it did not matter much if any of your other stuff could buff those 5 lords and magnus

[Azekai]

Also, there is like 4-5 armies with the -1 to hit trait... it isn't terribly overpowered if almost everyone can take it.

 

It *is* overpowered relative to just about every other trait available, though. -1 on a d6 is freaking nuts. I like Alpha Legion, but I don't want to be forced to take them over every other kind of chaos space marine.

 

-1 to hit isn't even a very good way to represent stealth. Hidden deployment rules would be more interesting and a less potent gimmick. 

[bozo69pd]

 

Also, there is like 4-5 armies with the -1 to hit trait... it isn't terribly overpowered if almost everyone can take it.

 

It *is* overpowered relative to just about every other trait available, though. -1 on a d6 is freaking nuts. I like Alpha Legion, but I don't want to be forced to take them over every other kind of chaos space marine.

 

-1 to hit isn't even a very good way to represent stealth. Hidden deployment rules would be more interesting and a less potent gimmick. 

 

My friends Mawloc Spam and another friends World Eaters... and another friends Howling Banshees and another friends Orks don't even care about that -1. It really is only a big deal for things like lascannon spam. If people are having problems with it then time to start deep striking. Shake up that Meta.

[bozo69pd]

soups are not [although it is nice to have a G-man that works on everything] about buffing everything with everything. It is no longer the case, but there was a time when it did not matter much if any of your other stuff could buff those 5 lords and magnus

So do you think that is a good thing or bad thing in your opinion? I could go either way, I was always a tribal player in Magic the Gathering so I appreciate synergy. Being undivided definitely makes it easier for a soup list to just bring a random Belakor or Fatweaver or something.

[Stross]

Actually pointwise you can replace conscripts+commisars with normal IG squads and the lists work just fine. Have even more shoting now thanks to the hvy weapon teams normal IG dudes bring. Consrcipts are mostly a thing for soup lists now.

 

 

With 4 point cost they need now only as a meet shield, nothing more.

1 - I agree the Loyalists have a lot of options we don't have and I would love to see the real options be made available for Warpsmiths, Exalted Champions etc. However, for now our Stratagems/Psychic abilities synergise much better with our units and Marks than what the mewling Loyalists have. I mean... Endless Cacophony, Infiltrate, and Veterans of the Long War is incredible. Death Hex, Prescience, Warptime, Delightful Agonies etc. With 40 MoS autogun Cultists, if you go first, you can launch 160 shots (Endless Cacophony) with +1 to Hit (Prescience) and re-rolling 1s (Chaos Lord), +1 to Wound (Veterans of the Long War) against something without an invulnerable save (Death Hex). For retaliation, you have Delightful Agonies (5+ FnP) and possibly -1 to hit. Then, to add insult to injury, recycle them (if you autopass morale).

 

Hmm... this is really worth trying, since not so many people actually shoot into cultitsts...

 

 

 your opponent from Deep Striking T1 anywhere but deep in his own deployment zone

If enemy army just stand and shoot, it is hard to deepstrike inside. Mostly we are forced to appear in their front line. 

 

 Everything can be shot and annihilated T1 this edition, but remember you infiltrate after you know who goes first. World Eaters have even won a GT with Rhino Rush if I remember correctly. 

 

 

Yeah, at least we can hide them in ruins or behind wall

[Panzer]

Imo Stratagems and relics should be bound more tightly to faction keywords...and those should count armywide, not detachment wide.

Got ANY codex daemon unit in your CSM army? Too bad, now you can't use your CSM Stratagems anymore...but at least you still have your Chaos Stratagems. (with the generic chaos Stratagems being the more plain/weaker ones and the CSM/Daemon ones the more interesting/stronger ones)

That would make the decision whether to play a soup list or not a real decision again and rewards focussing on a more specific faction keyword armywide imo.