Why are we being hyped as ‚strongest army‘?

[ChazSexington]

 

 

 

 your opponent from Deep Striking T1 anywhere but deep in his own deployment zone

If enemy army just stand and shoot, it is hard to deepstrike inside. Mostly we are forced to appear in their front line. 

 

I agree - that's why we have Warp Talons and Sorcerers with Jump Packs and Warptime (or Infiltrate). You can literally jump over their troops and charge everything. Or just declare a charge against everything within 12" with World Eaters and pile into/consolidate into them. 

 

My point was to prevent him from being able to deep strike btw. Cultists with Infiltrate are fantastic for that.

 

Imo Stratagems and relics should be bound more tightly to faction keywords...and those should count armywide, not detachment wide.

Got ANY codex daemon unit in your CSM army? Too bad, now you can't use your CSM Stratagems anymore...but at least you still have your Chaos Stratagems. (with the generic chaos Stratagems being the more plain/weaker ones and the CSM/Daemon ones the more interesting/stronger ones)

That would make the decision whether to play a soup list or not a real decision again and rewards focussing on a more specific faction keyword armywide imo.

 

I wholly agree for Matched Play. Matched Play is way too lose and needs to be tightened for balance issues.

[bozo69pd]

Imo Stratagems and relics should be bound more tightly to faction keywords...and those should count armywide, not detachment wide.

Got ANY codex daemon unit in your CSM army? Too bad, now you can't use your CSM Stratagems anymore...but at least you still have your Chaos Stratagems. (with the generic chaos Stratagems being the more plain/weaker ones and the CSM/Daemon ones the more interesting/stronger ones)

That would make the decision whether to play a soup list or not a real decision again and rewards focussing on a more specific faction keyword armywide imo.

At first I was going to disagree, I like to have my cultists giving worship to a greater daemon sometimes. There are some instances that are weird or stupid. However your suggestion means that you cannot see Space Marines and Guard on the table together. How would you field an assassin?

 

Also keep in mind if you limit the diverse factors we have now (they are in fact diverse, look at the tourney lists from 5th, 6th, 7th edition aka master codex editions). If you have to play monocodex we will probably just all lose to grand master nemesis dreadknight lists.

[Panzer]

 

Imo Stratagems and relics should be bound more tightly to faction keywords...and those should count armywide, not detachment wide.

Got ANY codex daemon unit in your CSM army? Too bad, now you can't use your CSM Stratagems anymore...but at least you still have your Chaos Stratagems. (with the generic chaos Stratagems being the more plain/weaker ones and the CSM/Daemon ones the more interesting/stronger ones)

That would make the decision whether to play a soup list or not a real decision again and rewards focussing on a more specific faction keyword armywide imo.

At first I was going to disagree, I like to have my cultists giving worship to a greater daemon sometimes. There are some instances that are weird or stupid. However your suggestion means that you cannot see Space Marines and Guard on the table together. How would you field an assassin?

 

Also keep in mind if you limit the diverse factors we have now (they are in fact diverse, look at the tourney lists from 5th, 6th, 7th edition aka master codex editions). If you have to play monocodex we will probably just all lose to grand master nemesis dreadknight lists.

 

How would my suggestion mean that? Of course you can see them together. You just wouldn't have access to the subfaction specific stratagems and would be restricted the broader faction specific stratagems (note: that would obviously an addition compared to the current system where we only have CSM, AM, AdMech, etc. stratagems and no generic Imperium or Chaos stratagems).

 

I think you misunderstood what I meant with my post. ^^

[bozo69pd]

Ah yeah I think that doesn't sound as bad as I thought originally. So in this example which type of stratagems would I be able to use:

DG battalion

Alpha Legion battalion

Codex Daemon supreme command

 

(all units are nurgle)

[Panzer]

In that case it would be Chaos and Nurgle stratagems. Keep in mind that's all make believe and what-if. No way GW is reworking the core armybuilding mechanic.

[Commissar K.]

Have been away for quite some time, not because of not having 8th interest but simply not so much knowing what to do with my army. However with the new Chapter Improved I have found some new guidelines.

What I see is that every army has some neat tricks, Chaos Space Marines are no exception. While sites like BOLS seem to heavily dislike these tricks or combo's I think they make for an interesting game. A winner can be decided by them but sooner than later all armies will have some combo's working for them and this is when 8th should shine at it's brightests. Strong rules are no issue if everybody has them. Even the Stratagem count is no issue, one might find them too many to remember them all but I don't see this as an issue either. Some cardgames have 470+ cards in the set and you'll know them, later as sooner.

To me Chaos isn't the strongest army and GW is designing their best for this edition to not really have any army be the strongest in particular. Yes it was true that AM was the strongest army, now with Conscripts being an option instead of being better as the rest builds become more interesting.
Chaos is strong but all armies should be on a compairable level. Tau players might complain because they have been above the level for years. Chaos players love it becuse they have been below the level for years. A lot of these out spoken opinions are based on previous edition experiences, which really shouldn't influence 8th's design. AM has been one of the weaker armies in certain editions too but that doesn't mean Conscripts should be amongst the best infantry. It doesn't make sence from a narrative perspective nor AM design ;) 

[Stross]

. It doesn't make sence from a narrative perspective nor AM design 

 

I totally agree. And personally I don't have problems with AM, Eldar or buffed Tyranids. The main problem now for me: Space Marines. Not only it is all about them (at least Death Guard cut some attention from them), their Primaris, their versability and almost 100 percent list of playable units, they got not only many shiny toys, not only they have strongest Primarch (I know that many people would tell that Magnus would tear him apart and I agree with you, as a psyker and in melee combat he is going to obliterate him. But aside from that, he do almost nothing and appear as a big fire magnet, while Guilliman can hide and give all rerolls, which is monstrous, not saying about primaris lietenants), their Land Raider and other stuff even without Kronos are great, not even saying about scouts or assassins. We, on another hand, have daemons. But...until codex it is not that much we can do with them. And we don't even have returning of CP on 5+ or something. 

So for me it is Space Marines, who need to be nerfed.

[Panzer]

 

. It doesn't make sence from a narrative perspective nor AM design 

 

I totally agree. And personally I don't have problems with AM, Eldar or buffed Tyranids. The main problem now for me: Space Marines. Not only it is all about them (at least Death Guard cut some attention from them), their Primaris, their versability and almost 100 percent list of playable units, they got not only many shiny toys, not only they have strongest Primarch (I know that many people would tell that Magnus would tear him apart and I agree with you, as a psyker and in melee combat he is going to obliterate him. But aside from that, he do almost nothing and appear as a big fire magnet, while Guilliman can hide and give all rerolls, which is monstrous, not saying about primaris lietenants), their Land Raider and other stuff even without Kronos are great, not even saying about scouts or assassins. We, on another hand, have daemons. But...until codex it is not that much we can do with them. And we don't even have returning of CP on 5+ or something. 

So for me it is Space Marines, who need to be nerfed.

 

Well Space Marines are actually one of the weakest factions of the ones who have their Codex already currently. Only Guilliman lets them be a bit more competetive.

Space Marines have the huge problem of not having any chaff units to bubble wrap their expensive units and not being able to get a lot of CP unless they take a AM detachment (but then it's not exactly a Space Marine army anymore).

[Stross]

Well Space Marines are actually one of the weakest factions of the ones who have their Codex already currently. Only Guilliman lets them be a bit more competetive.

Space Marines have the huge problem of not having any chaff units to bubble wrap their expensive units and not being able to get a lot of CP unless they take a AM detachment (but then it's not exactly a Space Marine army anymore).

 

Maybe, I want to proxy them and see their problems by myself. 

Yeah, they have same problem as Grey Knights. But still is a shooty army they are one of the best for my opinion. 

[Commissar K.]

 

I totally agree. And personally I don't have problems with AM, Eldar or buffed Tyranids. The main problem now for me: Space Marines. Not only it is all about them (at least Death Guard cut some attention from them), their Primaris, their versability and almost 100 percent list of playable units, they got not only many shiny toys, not only they have strongest Primarch (I know that many people would tell that Magnus would tear him apart and I agree with you, as a psyker and in melee combat he is going to obliterate him. But aside from that, he do almost nothing and appear as a big fire magnet, while Guilliman can hide and give all rerolls, which is monstrous, not saying about primaris lietenants), their Land Raider and other stuff even without Kronos are great, not even saying about scouts or assassins. We, on another hand, have daemons. But...until codex it is not that much we can do with them. And we don't even have returning of CP on 5+ or something. 

 

So for me it is Space Marines, who need to be nerfed.

 

I think we see the game in quite a healthy state is is though, yes Guilliman is a power house but if all armies will have something akin to it eventually it can still work out. I'd say currently it does work out...

 

What I see is that either armies seem to have a Primarch available to them of have some Strategems who are some crazy good combinations. Chaos Space Marines fall more in the latter now because Abaddon is really not a Primarch and while Magnus or Mortarion are these all come with their own books. Be it now or later.

 

With the current Blood Angel spoilers we also see this again, no Sanguinius for Blood Angels but they do have some great Strategems :) 

 

Well Space Marines are actually one of the weakest factions of the ones who have their Codex already currently. Only Guilliman lets them be a bit more competetive.

 

 

Space Marines have the huge problem of not having any chaff units to bubble wrap their expensive units and not being able to get a lot of CP unless they take a AM detachment (but then it's not exactly a Space Marine army anymore).

Completely true aswell. The only trend I see now is:

- Have a key piece power model; Primarch OR

- Have a handful of key piece Stratagems

 

To me having either is cool. For the most part Ive seen the regular Space Marines Codex as Codex Ultra Marines in disguise anyway. At least in my opinion that has been the case for several years now and it doesn't look like 8th edition is breaking all old trends ;) 

[Irbis]

 

Imperial Guard was the best army, until FAQ and CA. 

I don't see CSM being ridiculously better than Eldar for eg. 

 

This is completely wrong, and easily demonstrated by tournament results. Almost every trick IG can pull, CSM can pull of better either on their own, by adding a Forge World unit, or splashing in some renegades or daemons. Now, with deletion of conscripts and commissars, and another wave of DG/Nurgle units arriving, I'd expect the trend to be even stronger.

 

Nobody played CSM in 7th, ergo, people see a lot more CSM now and assume it must be because they're overpowered/broken/really strong.

 

In reality it's just CSM players being able to bring their armies off the shelf without 'em being tabled turn one anymore.

 

Funnily enough, what you say is true about IG. Whipping boy of last 3 editions became competitive and people instantly lost their minds, even if math crunching repeated ad nauseam shown their units were mostly on par with other armies. Yes, they had nice synergies but so did virtually every other Codex army (save for GK, maybe).

 

CSM though? Not only they kept placing 50% of spots in top 10 of all major tournaments, some units of Chaos were so hideously broken they were target of very first urgent nerf in 8th edition, and to this day Chaos is the only side that can literally grow the army larger without reserving points for it, in multiple ways...

 

Alpha legion trait is great, but no one tells that Raven Guard or one of the Mechanicus forge is OP because of -1 to hit. It doesn't help against horde armies. 

 

...

 

5. Berzerkers or any other strong melee  - well, if they lucky enough to reach enemy, they done their purpose. Even with Rhino's it is risky. And it is too expensive to bring on Land Raider.

 

That's not how AL or Berserkers work. They never tried to do gunline, or walk, they just infiltrated 40 berserkers 9 inches away, moved 6 inches, presto, 300+ attacks on auto-hitting charge. Follow that with fifteen malefic lord spam (thankfully now dead) or primarch duo or Austakerowhat:cusseres or some hellforged engines or yet another strong option CSM had in abundance and you can table literally every Index (and half of Codex) armies by second turn...

 

 

I've been playing Chaos since 3rd launched, and it's not been true since 3.5.

 

I seem to recall 6th edition CSM book have so broken units that GW had to do literally first urgent nerf in history, nerfing ability of CSM flyers and their Farts of Doom wiping out whole armies with ease at every possible angle. Utter domination of CSM in 6th, at least until Eldar book came out, doesn't count?

 

Then you had end of 7th with Legion books/Magnus making CSM leap ahead of almost everyone but Eldar, and even they had little chance with stuff big M could pull, especially supported with some other Tzeentch toys. That didn't happen either?

 

I know little about current chaos space marines or even 8th edition in general, but I do know this: when people say, whether in online or real life (the internet doesn't have the monopoly over not using the right words, after all) that an "army" is strong or overpowered, they very often really mean "this netlist/set of spammed units" is strong or overpowered.

 

Some people are astute enough to realize the nuance, as nicknames such as "Codex: Heldrakes" and "Codex: Winged Hive Tyrant" showed in earlier editions.

 

The problem with 8th edition CSM is, that 'netlist' in their case covers seven or so different builds. IG can maybe do 2-3, while SM hang in last spot with 1.5 (Rob with razorspam, 0.5 being honorary attempt by RG trying to copy berserker rush with much worse units, such as Aggressors). Even now, with malefic spam being heavily nerfed, FW superheavies and superdaemons getting overcosted, and other CSM support in general getting slightly weaker, you still have whole bag of tricks DG brought to table, AL infiltrating whatever they want, Slaaneshi units spewing 40 plasma shots per turn, and warptime all but guaranteeing first turn charges with death stars, stuff other armies would be hard pressed to match. Does that mean CSM are OP? Probably not, but they can produce pretty broken list with ease if you want them to, and you can see this in tournament results. And this is without considering they are about to cherrypick more broken combos with Codex: Daemons being next...

[GreyCrow]

Err... One thing about netlists.

 

You can take them as the be all/end all of list building if you want. You can do that if you want to be wrong and limit yourself. And get owned over time.

 

Netlists are usually designed to be a hard counter to a specific meta. If your meta blindly follows a strategy and does not adapt, then your netlists are going to win in the beginning.

Until they develop specific counter and you have to adapt or be done with it.

 

Or you can go the route of setting the meta with your own shenanigans.

 

Yes, it is possible.

[Commissar K.]

Absolutely, I think one of the good tings about 8th is that a lot of design is either very good by itself but not supported by any Stratagems or designed ever so slightly inferior but has acces to some great Stratagems. In certain cases following the narrative path of this means all things are good. Things become ever so slightly more obnoxious if narrative is completely ignored and you end up with the example 20 blob Berzerkers of the Alpha Legion screaming out of nowhere.

What I do see here locally and chat about with my friends is that for both there is a place. I think a lot of TO's realize this too and we could most certainly see Tournament Rules Packs who allow for every crazy game combo and completely ignore narrative designs but we can also see Tournament Rules Packs who don't allow every crazy game combo and reward narrative designs. - For sure the question then comes, what is narrative design? But in reality narrative design means that we limit ourselfs to one army type and within that one chapter/legion.

More personal narrative can come to support different things but like before Codex Space Marines to me still largely feels like Codex Ultramarines (band together with Guilliman to be really strong) while Codex Chaos Space Marines feels like Codex Black Legion. Not that we all should be playing Black Legion but their "narrative Chaos soup" is our current strongest asset aswell.

 

 

 

This is completely wrong, and easily demonstrated by tournament results.
Almost every trick IG can pull, CSM can pull of better either on their own, by adding a Forge World unit, or splashing in some renegades or daemons.

Feel free to demonstrate it! What I see is that AM absolutely was the stronger choice on paper and results.
I do not think CSM can pull AM strategies at all. What I do see is that parts of AM players think Conscripts are useless now while they still can preform the same role for an increased cost. The prime difference between the in game results is that with AM model placement is much more essential as it is with CSM. It's easier to make mistakes with AM but the reward is far greater when you dont.

Where I do agree is that Chaos has a lot of melee flexability. However as we will see Blood Angels, Nids and Orks leaning in that spectrum too I fully expect the balance between melee and shooting to come back again. Also just because Conscripts increased now does not mean they will keep this increase forever.
 

[GreyCrow]

@Commissar : Indeed !

 

There is a big problem with following the narrative though, it's that all the Legions/Chapters/Units have been portrayed with a varying level of consistency over the years that there is much confusion going on even if each individual is thinking they are following the fluff.

 

Example :

- Khorne Berzerkers : They are not world eaters only. They are Marines dedicated to Khorne found in many war bands

- Alpha Legion : Supposed to not worship Chaos, but there has been some Daemon Princes from the AL in some novels (Voldorius)

 

I would rather give players more opportunities for lists they enjoy that can be believable with the fluff, rather than limit them to what the fluff say and lose enjoyment (and competitiveness).

[1000 Sons]

Chaos has a lot of tools, as others have said, alpha legion khorne berserkers, slaanesh obliterators, Magnus, Morty, strong psykers, daemons. If you don't mind mixing and matching we have lots of good combinations.

 

If your goal is to only play a single legion, then things get tricky. Death Guard are in a good place but the rest need some good planning and a bit of luck.

[1000 Sons]

However as we will see Blood Angels, Nids and Orks leaning in that spectrum too I fully expect the balance between melee and shooting to come back again.

 

This is something I really hope happens. I love melee armies but it is hard to crack some of these gunlines.

[Commissar K.]

@Commissar : Indeed !

 

There is a big problem with following the narrative though, it's that all the Legions/Chapters/Units have been portrayed with a varying level of consistency over the years that there is much confusion going on even if each individual is thinking they are following the fluff.

 

Example :

- Khorne Berzerkers : They are not world eaters only. They are Marines dedicated to Khorne found in many war bands

- Alpha Legion : Supposed to not worship Chaos, but there has been some Daemon Princes from the AL in some novels (Voldorius)

 

I would rather give players more opportunities for lists they enjoy that can be believable with the fluff, rather than limit them to what the fluff say and lose enjoyment (and competitiveness).

I absolutely agree, narrative at this point is absolutely hard to design straight out of the book though I feel several Tournament Rules Packs can set the narrative as an additional rule for that event. What one could do for example is set a limit to a particular Keyword per Detachment and have mandatory Detachments for that event. I'm absolutely not opposed to mixing units it's the mix of Legions that gets me tingled much more. As it is possible and logical for large scale battles but isn't for the 1500 point to 2000 point armies. These armies are still relatively small, confirmed by narrative.

 

As above I'm cool with two types of events, one that doesn't restrict anything but indeed basically is very open for any thematic design (or none) and others who are much more restricting. There is a player group for both and personally I'd also like to try both from time to time.

 

What I can say though is that at events without those restrictions usually highlight combo-issues where narrative armies do this much less. Alpha Legion Berzerkers are strong but also Elite and also still are a bunch of guys with T4 Armour 3+ and one wound. Flamers work very well against them. 

 

 

However as we will see Blood Angels, Nids and Orks leaning in that spectrum too I fully expect the balance between melee and shooting to come back again.

This is something I really hope happens. I love melee armies but it is hard to crack some of these gunlines.

 

It is but with certain Stratagems we are getting there. The issue is a bit two-fold though, as I feel we have about 60/40 40k players who love shooting and think it should be the best and 40k players who love melee combat and think it should be better ;) 

 

Supringly the BoLS voices usually talk more about melee orientated Stratagem issues as they do for shooting. It's really in the eye of the beholder what the game is about. I personally do not have issues with automatic charges being done for example but I know a few players who do.

[Panzer]

 

Well Space Marines are actually one of the weakest factions of the ones who have their Codex already currently. Only Guilliman lets them be a bit more competetive.

 

 

Space Marines have the huge problem of not having any chaff units to bubble wrap their expensive units and not being able to get a lot of CP unless they take a AM detachment (but then it's not exactly a Space Marine army anymore).

Completely true aswell. The only trend I see now is:

- Have a key piece power model; Primarch OR

- Have a handful of key piece Stratagems

 

To me having either is cool. For the most part Ive seen the regular Space Marines Codex as Codex Ultra Marines in disguise anyway. At least in my opinion that has been the case for several years now and it doesn't look like 8th edition is breaking all old trends

 

I have a big problem with that mindset to be honest.

Needing a specific model to compete with other top lists forces you into building a very specific list without much freedom and also forces you to take that one specific subfaction while the rest of the codex falls flat (example Guilliman). While having a bunch of crazy Stratagems and otherwise strong combinations lets you have a lot more freedom of list building and adjusting to other lists (example VotLW and Slaanesh double shooting stratagems which are available to any CSM legion in their Codex and to most units).

 

I don't see those two things being equal at all. Having a strong model and otherwise a lacking Codex is clearly inferior to having good Stratagems, psychic powers and other synergies. Competetively as well as for casual games (it's just no fun feeling like you need that one special character or else you'd be gimping yourself).

 

However as we will see Blood Angels, Nids and Orks leaning in that spectrum too I fully expect the balance between melee and shooting to come back again.

This is something I really hope happens. I love melee armies but it is hard to crack some of these gunlines.

 

This easily happens when people finally start using more LoS blocking terrain. If the shooty armies alpha strike ability gets denied to a large degree and the melee army can actually advance/drop in without being seen things equal out quickly.

[Stross]

More personal narrative can come to support different things but like before Codex Space Marines to me still largely feels like Codex Ultramarines (band together with Guilliman to be really strong) while Codex Chaos Space Marines feels like Codex Black Legion. Not that we all should be playing Black Legion but their "narrative Chaos soup" is our current strongest asset aswell.

 

 I disagree a bit. I don't feel it like Black Legion Codex. Black Legion trait is almost useless, bikes are not about them, neither Hellbrute or Daemon Prince can get any benefit from it. We are almost last in the list of traits and have upper hand only compare to Word Bearers. 

And I don't even want to say about our artifact, And Warlord trait is something in the middle, because we are not always play against Imperial. But I agree it is really fluffy. 

What I want to say, that Black Legion was understanded by GW compleately wrong. And instead of leading force of Chaos we become nothing, but Abby+termistrike. This is what Black Legion about for most players. WE, EC and AL do almost everything better in melee or shooting, save for rerolls (only Khârn can provide this for his boys). 

And I can guess, why it feel like Black legion book. Except for Khârn, we don't have competative named HQ. Except for Khârn again, but he is more situational. Lucius, Phabius, Huron, Sypher are very situational characters or something in the middle. 

And Ultramarines have a LOT of heroes for different situations and they are more usable. 

 you still have whole bag of tricks DG brought to table, AL infiltrating whatever they want, Slaaneshi units spewing 40 plasma shots per turn, and warptime all but guaranteeing first turn charges with death stars, stuff other armies would be hard pressed to match.

 

DG work with cultists+poxwalkers, this is good tactic, that still need some brains to use properly. I don't find anything in Death guard, that can be compared to that, but maybe I searhed it bad. 

Plasma don't work, if enemy have -1 because of something. And a lot of races have this now because of diffirent traits or units. So no overcharging and even T7 will be troubling. 

AL infiltrations is good, but a lot of risk, since we must put our boys on the table anyway. And with horde melee army or with a lot of dakka they will be dead in no time. And it is really bad to lose 350 points of your army list. I think about this infiltrationg to get someone closer to shoot something or score some goal before enemy do (relic for example). 

Edited December 10, 2017 by Stross

[GreyCrow]

@Stross : It's always hard to satisfy any Chapter/Legion with everything.

 

The Black Legion trait may not be what you were looking for, but it is still pretty solid for a variety of strategies !

It's all about aggressiveness, not necessarily killyness but aggressiveness.

 

And aggressiveness has many values : distraction, target confusion, board control, etc.

In itself, the bonus may not have as much value as other bonuses, but advancing + shooting with all weapons at a reduced effectiveness has some serious psychological effect!

 

You can use the CSM as a distraction while you set up a killer blow, etc. Many options possible !

[Stross]

n itself, the bonus may not have as much value as other bonuses, but advancing + shooting with all weapons at a reduced effectiveness has some serious psychological effect!

 

I understand it, but there are not many troops with rapid fire on Chaos list, that is the main problem, not the trait itself. Culstists, Marines, Bikers, that is it. 

It should be to shoot heavy after assault as well. Man, I would be agree with -2 to hit, but it will be advancing army indeed. 

Just read these lines. 

Alright, I have another guess about our trait. Just look at our Stratagem. Chaos space marines can get full reroll. Not even Chosen. 

So we are forced to use CSM as Troops, then I agree, legion trait, warlord trait, even the artifact can be handy. But only for fluff and narrative play. And I love this.

But this prove my point, that our Codex is still not about Black Legion. 

[Ishagu]

Chaos are super powerful because they have all the strengths of Marines with the additions of better flexibility, stratagems, psychic powers and access to cheap horde units and troops like cultists.

[GreyCrow]

@Stross :

Add on top the +1 to Leadership, with the Icon of Vengeance, you can make some pretty serious distraction units with that ;)

 

Just picture this : you have a line of several CSM squads, with a full size squad of Bikers that you deploy late to exploit a weakness in one of the opponents corner.

Now, you can advance your bikes the full 6" while spraying bolter wildly, with a big T5 W2 distraction unit of wrecking ballage.

While the rest of your line carefully decides whether to advance to gain board control or to tactically shoot the opponent as they slowly move up.

 

You can use your CSM as distraction by having them rush forward and shoot like Orks, if you planned to use them this way to distract from a more potent firebase.

Because moving an extra 3" and plinking at the enemy is actually a pretty good bait to have the enemy move up and try to get in Rapid Fire range.

 

---

 

Tactical Talk aside, you are right that this is not Codex Black Legion like Codex Death Guard. No special shenanigans there or snowflake units !

[Panzer]

Stross has a point tho.

The Black Legion stuff IS lacking compared to others. The trait is of very little use in an army of so few Rapid Fire weapons and +1LD is laughable for Marines who already have good LD, can re-roll the morale test and usually like to get deployed as MSU force anyway.

They also don't offer any extremely good Stratagem or relic compared to other choices to balance out their lackluster trait.

 

Also, yes the CSM Codex is more of a Codex Alpha Legion or even a Codex Slaanesh than it is a Codex Black Legion.

Just because the AL infiltration stratagem works so well with Berzerker plus their trait is simply one of the best in the game and Slaanesh because the Slaanesh stuff has overall great synergies with most units (namely shooting twice and a 5+++ psychic power).

[GreyCrow]

@sfPanzer : It depends what you consider lacking.

 

It's never lacking in absolute, just lacking versus your own personal preferences.

It's okay that you prefer something else!

 

Trust me, in a couple of months when people will have figured out that you can counter Forward Operatives and Endless Cacophony without list tailoring, or when some guy will create some crazy combo with Iron Warriors, the discussion will be absolutely different!

 

We're at the 'paper phase' of the Codex, these 2 stratagems and bonuses just have this WOW! factor because they are so novel, while the other stratagems/traits are solid but unremarkable. And are less explicit than 'shoot twice' or 'deploy wherever you want'.

 

---

 

You are absolutely right that this is a missed opportunity for the other Legions, not having a WOW! effect like this, and it is legitimate that this is disappointing :)