Why are we being hyped as ‚strongest army‘?

[Panzer]

I disagree completely.

I think we already are well past the paper phase of the CSM Codex. People kept saying the same thibg you do when it got released and nothing has changed since then. If anything it just turned out as predicted by most.

 

It's not about wow effects, it's about synergies. Which AL and the Slaanesh specific stuff has a lot of in the Codex and BL almost none.

 

Also there isn't really a way to counter the Slaanesh stratagem unless you can wipe out every single shooty unit the CSM player has in one go without giving the CSM player any targets in case he gets first turn. Shooting twice is as simple as it gets.

[bozo69pd]

Everyone gets a shoot twice gimmick for every codex army somehow. Not a big deal at all. As we know who goes first this edition is king, hence why ITC makes going first a roll off with whoever finished deployment first getting +1. Auto dictating first turn was just insanely powerful and tourney results showed an incredibly high win %.

[GreyCrow]

@sf : It's been a couple of months only. Meta and counter strategies take effect after years of trial and testing. We are also in a new rule system that radically changes everything in the game.

No 'definitive' interpretation/solution to 8th is to be expected before end of next year. Right now, people go for the obvious units and combos, because they are obvious.

Not that it is bad! Hey, if people find it cool and it works for them, more power to those who enjoy their hobby :)

 

I play Raven Guard and I am very well aware of the strength of the AL lists, and also their weaknesses. All lists relying on deployment shenanigans are super hard countered by board presence.

 

Yeah, throw at AL list with blobs of 20 berserkers and I'll see the trick coming. And have you waste the CPs on screening units like Scouts. Hop, advantage denied. At the expense of 10 brave Scouts.

 

Same for Slaneesh double taping Terminators with plasmas.

 

There are many solutions, but no time for a wall of text :D

 

Most army systems that rely on a very specific popular combo tend to make 2 mistakes :

1) Broadcast it, so their intentions are super clear

2) Optimize it and scale it up, creating gaps in other areas by lack of points

 

These new shiny tricks will lose their superb over time, while people get more comfy with the games and have balls to try out innovative strategies :)

[Panzer]

I nevet said to use the slaanesh stratagem on plasma terminators only. Also nothing forces you to drop in your Terminators before you've dealed with screening units.

Also I never said Alpha Legion is good because of just that one thing.

Also we don't really have years of playtesting in an environment where new things get released constantly or changed by CA and stuff.

 

All in all your post didn't tell me anything new but I understand now why you post what you post since you seem to assume some very specific things in your replies.

 

Everyone gets a shoot twice gimmick for every codex army somehow. Not a big deal at all. As we know who goes first this edition is king, hence why ITC makes going first a roll off with whoever finished deployment first getting +1. Auto dictating first turn was just insanely powerful and tourney results showed an incredibly high win %.

Not everyone, no. It also doesn't change anything about what I said above.

And the +1 is nothing ITC specific. That's part of CA and ITC simply decided to use the previewed rule early already like many other TOs. ^^

[Stross]

Just picture this : you have a line of several CSM squads, with a full size squad of Bikers that you deploy late to exploit a weakness in one of the opponents corner.

Now, you can advance your bikes the full 6" while spraying bolter wildly, with a big T5 W2 distraction unit of wrecking ballage.

While the rest of your line carefully decides whether to advance to gain board control or to tactically shoot the opponent as they slowly move up.

 

Sounds good, but only problem with bikers for me - they can do almost nothing in melee. 9 men for 225 points (ok, 18 wound and T5 with 3+ saving throw is good, give them lord on bike as well for rerolling ones) with chainswords (27 attack) feels like scions deep strike. One use and they done. Or we MUST take them as renegades because of charge after advance. And with BL trait it will be sadly just 18 shoots, not 36. 

Good for fluff again, but now bikers get their retirement almost everywhere (Chaos, Space Marines, Dark Eldar). And for fast attack to fill a brigade I see only chaos spawn as a cheap option. 

You can use your CSM as distraction by having them rush forward and shoot like Orks, if you planned to use them this way to distract from a more potent firebase.

Because moving an extra 3" and plinking at the enemy is actually a pretty good bait to have the enemy move up and try to get in Rapid Fire range.

 

And it is hard to get distraction for shooting or horde melee army.

[Stross]

The Black Legion stuff IS lacking compared to others. The trait is of very little use in an army of so few Rapid Fire weapons and +1LD is laughable for Marines who already have good LD, can re-roll the morale test and usually like to get deployed as MSU force anywa

 

And mostly we take some chosen guys or regular CSM in squad of 5 men, so even 8 leadership is not a big problem. 

 

They also don't offer any extremely good Stratagem or relic compared to other choices to balance out their lackluster trait.

 

It would work with 20 man CSM squad. 4 lascannon, 1 combibolter and 15 bolters (34 shoots in rapid fire range) with full reroll if Abaddon far away. Or just chainswords and pistols (41 attack on 3+ and 3+ against weak infantry). But again we have a problem with reaching the enemy. 

As for relic it should not be D3, but 1 - nothing, 2-5 - D3, 6-D6. And it at least would be some little sense. 

 

And Black Legion really should have Chosen as troops like it was in 7'th. Not like we are going to use it that often, but at least it is going to feel like elite army. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

I tend to love the 10 mans in rhinos with trip-plasma, tend to be very effective for what we are getting.  (they chew through opposing units and our Command points at an equal clip lol!) 

 

Id gladly take a unit or 2 of these even in a competitive environment. 

[Commissar K.]

 

I have a big problem with that mindset to be honest.

 

Needing a specific model to compete with other top lists forces you into building a very specific list without much freedom and also forces you to take that one specific subfaction while the rest of the codex falls flat (example Guilliman). While having a bunch of crazy Stratagems and otherwise strong combinations lets you have a lot more freedom of list building and adjusting to other lists (example VotLW and Slaanesh double shooting stratagems which are available to any CSM legion in their Codex and to most units).

 

I don't see those two things being equal at all. Having a strong model and otherwise a lacking Codex is clearly inferior to having good Stratagems, psychic powers and other synergies. Competetively as well as for casual games (it's just no fun feeling like you need that one special character or else you'd be gimping yourself).

(Melee Combat)

This easily happens when people finally start using more LoS blocking terrain. If the shooty armies alpha strike ability gets denied to a large degree and the melee army can actually advance/drop in without being seen things equal out quickly.

I totally get that problem however I do feel 8th edition still has some traces of this. It isn't really a collectors issue though as the choices taken are still at least theoretically optional. Unlike before, we do not have to thake choice A to get free option 1 to 3 for example.

 

In this current edition I feel there are several models who can be excluded from an army but will lead to increased difficulties in playing against other competitive lists. For certain armies this choice is more obvious as for others. 

I must say I'm also not a huge fan of this type of design but indeed with Guilliman, Chaos Stratagems or Psykers in general as the examples, going without them means your somewhat enforcing a handicap upon yourself. As someone who plays World Eaters without Primarch-level characters, Slaanesh Stratagems or Psykers I can say that the only thing keeping the army up is the obvious power Khorne Berzerkers can generate. However I would lie to myself if I'd say it's the most competitive Chaos build or even remotely close to it (because in reality it is not). 

 

Having a strong model selection is not inferior to Stratagems however, again I can say this about World Eaters as an example too. You can most certainly get by with a Strong unit and less great Stratagems. Going without Psykers is a different matter though and I have included them from time to time too.

I can't say good model choices (including Psykers) are inferior to Stratagems. The reason is that several Stratagems require a specific unit to be taken and if that unit isn't too strong by itself the Stratagem still can be insufficient or make the piece sufficient enough. The prime example I can give here is with Daemonic Engines, they are all so-so but because of their Stratagem you can make them work. Likewise Khorne Berzerkers are excellent, they really don't need Stratagems. The more excellent units you have the less requirements for Stratagems are needed. Guilliman amps Space Marines because he's such an excellent unit, the end result is still a reasonably balanced effect.

The fact that you have a theoretical larger Stratagem selection does not mean you will be able to use all those Strategems for one army. It always somewhat rubs me the wrong way when players state that the massive Stratagem selection is an issue to the game. It really isn't as long as Stratagems are specific boosts for specific units and no real 2000 point army contains all units a Codex might include.

 

In the end though I actually think it's a good thing to either have great units (by themselves and mediocre Stratagems) or mediocre units (by themselves and great Stratagems). It allows for a narratively speaking balance between things that basically "enrage" in battle and other more constant great warriors.

 

(Melee Combat)

As above, the point that it occurs is not really a matter. What some armies have issues with is that it matters enough. Between being able to fail charges and intercept charges with Heroic moves there are many ways to block charges.

 

I do agree that scenery tables are important but how important they are isn't yet too specified in the Rulesbook. Therefor we still see enough real life tables without the propper ammount of scenery. 

 

(The Black Legion Codex)

To come back on this, it's not that I mend Black Legion is the best Legion choice for the Chaos Codex, I did not mean this at all.

 

What I did mean is that narratively speaking Chaos Codex rewards "Chaos Marines soup" and narratively speaking Black Legion is using "Chaos Marines soup" to be succesful. I also pitty the fact that Word Bearers do little to nothing for Chaos Daemons as they would be the prime example of real "Chaos soup".

Edited December 11, 2017 by Commissar K.

[CornishMike]

I think perception is a lot of it...

 

For example, GK have a good codex... Not full of cheesy instawin, but with some very powerful pieces, good synergy, and awesome stragetems...  They can easily be competitive.

 

However, GK used to be an "OP table you easily without thinking army".  Because their codex has gone from an Xbox game on easy mode, to a strong codex but not instawin, there are now massive ranting threads about how hard done by they are, including an open letter to GW claiming their codex is weak.

 

Their codex is not weak, it's just not 100 million times OP.

 

Conversely, people are used to seeing Chaos as the fluffy army, where there are one or two strong options, and everything else is taken if you want to represent a fluff army not a tourney winning one.  So when people see that we can use most (if not all) of our codex in a winning list, they assume we are now the OP choice.

[Commissar K.]

I completely agree with that. The way I think they decided to balance things though is still that some units will be really strong just by themselves and others need Stratagems. The fun thing about that is that it doesn't really matter because it allows everyone to still go either way. Having strong Stratagems for specific units is simply said a cool way to make theless predictable in a game too. I see some worry about good units and some worry about Stratagem ammounts but in reality played games will not contain all, so knowing all is a bit of a moot excersize.

So far I have to say 8th edition is looking really good. As chapter approved 2017 shows they are also willing to alter specific core rules when needed and costs when they feel its needed. Because this is possible the game should be able to stay alive for a long time.
While some see the constant changes as obnoxious it's also important to note that games like Warhammer 40.000 are truely never finished because that same player base wants new releases aswell. What this means is that new releases shouldn't be convined by previous editions or releases. All that can be needed is an update to costs or rules to keep all relevant.

Wether or not people like the way things are going now I must say I've never felt so flexible in being able to create lists. Yes every Codex has it's highlights and shadows but again if all have this it's quite impossible to have it lead into "massive issues". Some unbalance doesn't make a game bad and so far I've never played a perfectly balanced game and quite honestly do not believe a game requires that to be a good experience. Dice results arn't balanced either. Some days your lucky, some days you arn't. As long as we're not entering a realm of auto-hits and massive ammounts of Mortal wounds there is very little that can go wrong. 

[Panzer]

I agree partially. Perception is certainly one part of it but the GK codex is a good bit weaker than the others really. Doesn't mean you can't win games with it tho.

[Commissar K.]

I agree partially. Perception is certainly one part of it but the GK codex is a good bit weaker than the others really. Doesn't mean you can't win games with it tho.

And I think you are right that GK are a good bit weaker.

Then again, them seem to be designed to be a specific anti-army. So it could very well be that this is their intended design and basically kick Daemon arse whilst otherwise not being the choice of allround 'killer'. 

Then again, that would probably fit the narrative too much, I really don't know...

[CornishMike]

I really don't agree GK is weak.

 

Want an HQ in a massive suit that you can repair?  GK have you covered with a very nice ++ save...

 

Want to fly around the board with ease, taking objectives whenever you need to?  Yup

 

Dreadknight spam is horrific, so is gating around...  

 

Want everything to have psychic?  They have this too...  Being able to wound things with no counter is huge...  If GK opponent doesnt bring pykers to deny, GK can wound you with no saving throws (unless you have the new FnP which very few models get)... That's nasty...  Vene if you bring psykers, chances are GK will have twice as much casting as you can deny...

[Panzer]

It's usually only 1 Mortal wound tho. Other armies can do that as well. The Dreadknight is strong, yes but others have strong units as well.

Again, I didn't say GK are weak. I said they are weakER than the others. It's not like they are like 7e Tyranids etc.

[GreyCrow]

It's also Stormbolters accross the board.

 

It's pretty solid !

[Ishagu]

I think the GK are flat out weak. They don't have the tools for the job to combat a variety of armies.

I play them, and unless you spam certain combos they are pretty useless. The various units are overpriced and have no resilience.

 

Chaos, Guard, Eldar, Nids and Marines have multiple viable or at least playable ways to build armies. GK are too few in number to have any bite or to have any real lasting power, and their ranged weapon selection is limited and under-powered. Easily the weakest codex, and worse than any of the main Index armies.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Ishagu

[Commissar K.]

As above I think the prime intentional design behind GK now is to be the automatic Daemon ass-kicker. With more and more Daemonic Primarchs comming out there is more reason for them to be part of the game. If Codex Daemons comes and is very potent it's good to have GK to keep them in check. Again from a narrative standpoint this is their purpose so with the new 8th design I think GK should indeed not be the replica of Matthew Ward that created them to suddenly be a different kind of über army...

In any case though I think EVERY ARMY floats around the same level UNLESS you spam certain combo's. So far I have not seen any army who can be a swiss army and basically thake one of each and be succesful. It's a design "issue" you have to work with the moment choices arn't limited to one (character) of each per army. If we could thake multiple Guilliman or Khârn we would thake muliples of them.

From the first to this edition, 'spamming' or thaking the same unit multiple times has been an effective way of creating an army list. Unsuprisingly this is also true in the real world. A tank battalion does not thake 1 of each tank their country has ever produced.

Back to the topic at hand though, I'm absolutely interested who hypes Chaos as the strongest army! I think every army can currently create a competitive build and all of them either rely on Stratagem spam or strong unit spam, there is no other route for any army. 

[Ishagu]

OK, does anyone think Chaos is in any way under-powered or limited in the current game?

Is their a hole in their capabilities?

[Commissar K.]

OK, does anyone think Chaos is in any way under-powered or limited in the current game?

Is their a hole in their capabilities?

Limited, absolutely, there are little to no relevant Transport options in Codex Chaos while they do need it as melee is their virtue or otherwise be very up and close. There are ways to circumvent this with Alpha Legion Stratagem for example but not with Codex unit choices. Imperial Armour offers solutions, some player groups detest Forgeworld because of that reason. It fills gaps that are otherwise present.

Chaos in my opinion doesn't have a hole in their capabilities but does have a glaring need to be in combat in order to show their superiority. Chaos cannot outshoot SM or AM even with a Slaanesh Stratagem. The choices in Codex Chaos are most certainly limited by comparison. Much more so as say with other factions. A lot has changed since the 2000's if anything Chaos out of the regular GW stores suffers from up to date kits or quantity of plastic kits at all. 

Does this mean Chaos is weak? No not at all but it does mean that if you prefer to play with narrative driven armies Chaos doesn't offer the same tactical variance as is found in SM or AM. Chaos soup is most certainly strong but comes with restrictions in creating good Detachments. 

As before, Grey Knights also most certainly have their limitations. Again though I ask if this isn't the logical outcome of a narrative driven design point. As before they are equiped to curb-stomp Chaos Daemons and the only reason why they havn't come out of can like that is because currently there are very few reasons to play Chaos Daemons at all. There is a good reason to run a Primarch and that's about all the Chaos Daemons you see now in Chaos Space Marines. 

 

But I ask the same question again, if you do deem Chaos Space Marines as the strongest army, why do you see it like this? 

[norngahl]

What I dislike most is that they lost all their heresy toys while the smurfs still have them. That sucks pretty hard.

 

CCW for the tacticals would be nice, so they'd be bolter, bp/ccw. That would help them out a lot.

 

Beside this.. this is propably the best Chaos dex ever.

[Ishagu]

 

 

OK, does anyone think Chaos is in any way under-powered or limited in the current game?

Is their a hole in their capabilities?

Limited, absolutely, there are little to no relevant Transport options in Codex Chaos while they do need it as melee is their virtue or otherwise be very up and close. There are ways to circumvent this with Alpha Legion Stratagem for example but not with Codex unit choices. Imperial Armour offers solutions, some player groups detest Forgeworld because of that reason. It fills gaps that are otherwise present.

Chaos in my opinion doesn't have a hole in their capabilities but does have a glaring need to be in combat in order to show their superiority. Chaos cannot outshoot SM or AM even with a Slaanesh Stratagem. The choices in Codex Chaos are most certainly limited by comparison. Much more so as say with other factions. A lot has changed since the 2000's if anything Chaos out of the regular GW stores suffers from up to date kits or quantity of plastic kits at all.

Does this mean Chaos is weak? No not at all but it does mean that if you prefer to play with narrative driven armies Chaos doesn't offer the same tactical variance as is found in SM or AM. Chaos soup is most certainly strong but comes with restrictions in creating good Detachments.

As before, Grey Knights also most certainly have their limitations. Again though I ask if this isn't the logical outcome of a narrative driven design point. As before they are equiped to curb-stomp Chaos Daemons and the only reason why they havn't come out of can like that is because currently there are very few reasons to play Chaos Daemons at all. There is a good reason to run a Primarch and that's about all the Chaos Daemons you see now in Chaos Space Marines.

 

But I ask the same question again, if you do deem Chaos Space Marines as the strongest army, why do you see it like this?

Surely Rhinos and Landraiders as well as the various FW units is all you need? It's not like the loyalists have better options with the exception of the Raven.

Chaos have an absolutely game changing psychic power - Warp time - that makes any deepstriking unit a guaranteed melee threat without the need of transports. It's a hollow complaint. Also chaos has units that can literally fly across the table and assault something turn 1. Who else can do this with multiple units reliably?

 

Also, are Chaos rubbish in the shooting phase? Nope. They are on par with Marines.

 

Chaos Marines can:

1: Shoot Well

2: Assault Well

3: Control the board with both elite and cheap, disposable units

 

(This is without an ally)

 

Loyalists can:

1: Shoot Well

 

(Unless the list is a soup)

 

 

So, tell me again how chaos are "limited"?

[bryanp319]

It's not because we have the best rules it's because we have the best players. Players who appreciate the beauty of impaling heads on your shoulder spikes. Players who understand the subtle tactics of madmen with pain amplifiers bolted to their brains. Chaos Marines are the best because we attract the best and the brightest. People who understand the benefits of uncontrolled random mutation and make the best of an already great situation.

[Commissar K.]

 

Surely Rhinos and Landraiders as well as the various FW units is all you need? It's not like the loyalists have better options with the exception of the Raven.

Chaos have an absolutely game changing psychic power - Warp time - that makes any deepstriking unit a guaranteed melee threat without the need of transports. It's a hollow complaint. Also chaos has units that can literally fly across the table and assault something turn 1. Who else can do this with multiple units reliably?

 

Also, are Chaos rubbish in the shooting phase? Nope. They are on par with Marines.

 

Chaos Marines can:

1: Shoot Well

2: Assault Well

3: Control the board with both elite and cheap, disposable units

 

(This is without an ally)

 

Loyalists can:

1: Shoot Well

 

(Unless the list is a soup)

 

 

So, tell me again how chaos are "limited"?

 

It seems clear to me that you havn't actually picked up CSM and played several games with it. For there is not a single CSM army that fufill all the 3 roles you mention at the highest level, at the same time at 2000 points.

 

What is sure is that Rhino's and Landraiders arn't all you need. This is the prime reason as to why Codex Space Marines doesn't field any of them. What they can field and is absolutely a superior in between is a Razorback. In addition the several customisation options available to Space Marines are why Chaos Space Marines are currently Imperial Armour dependant if they actually want to be amongst the stronger armies. Nore, there is no reason for Space Marines to not look into these also. They have a superior ammount of choices even, yet more SM players seem set on not using them. If you start to make an exception for the Raven, look into the upcomming Codex Blood Angels and Dark Angels aswell. If you want to include all current CSM options, why excluse all the SM options?

 

For your first question who can do this reliable aswell, look into the current Codex Tyranids, Index for Orruks and most certainly do not forget Codex Blood Angels.

 

CSM are most certainly not on par with SM in terms of shooting lists. Also look into Codex Dark Angels soon  

 

1. CSM can shoot, they most certainly are not on top of the shooting pile, they arn't AM and they arn't SM.

2. CSM assaults well, with the upcomming Codex SM can do this too (e.g. Alpha Legion/Raven Guard or World Eaters/Blood Angels etc.)

3. CSM do not have both units that are elite and cheap disposable units, they arn't AM.

 

What I find very interesting on your perspective is that Codex Space Marines has double the unit choices, soon to be tripple or even quadripple yet you feel limited. Expect 2018 to be a jovial year if you feel you need even more options because the options are around the corner.

Understand that what you view as "ally options" is what your regular CSM player views as Chaos soup and Imperial soup is as powerful if not more if you look into it.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Sception]

 

n itself, the bonus may not have as much value as other bonuses, but advancing + shooting with all weapons at a reduced effectiveness has some serious psychological effect!

 

I understand it, but there are not many troops with rapid fire on Chaos list, that is the main problem, not the trait itself. Culstists, Marines, Bikers, that is it. 

It should be to shoot heavy after assault as well. Man, I would be agree with -2 to hit, but it will be advancing army indeed. 

Just read these lines. 

 

 

it should be "may advance and fire assault weapons without the usual -1 to hit penalty.  may advance and fire non-assault weapons with a -1 to hit penalty".  Also, that should be the renegade bonus, while black legion should be getting the advance & charge, which fits more with the legion's general preference for melee and works better with more of their preferred units.  but whatever.  Black Legion's far from the best, but with abaddon and their usable if uninspiring relic & stratagem they're far from the worst.

[Commissar K.]

 

Beside this.. this is propably the best Chaos dex ever.

The beauty of it is that its on par with 3rd edition Codex Chaos Space Marines.

 

Frankly speaking though I feel the current design team is well aware of where they want to go eventually. It's just hilarious that people deem the Codex Space Marines as weak. What is true is that we can expect Space Marines to become only more powerful as we know Codex Blood Angels and Dark Angels come out most certainly also followed by Codex Space Wolves and Codex Death Watch.

 

I guess your average SM player needs 5 times the ammount of CSM options to figure out what's good? More likely though they can't figure out what's good because they have 5 times the options soon ;)