Why are we being hyped as ‚strongest army‘?

[Ishagu]

 

 

Surely Rhinos and Landraiders as well as the various FW units is all you need? It's not like the loyalists have better options with the exception of the Raven.

Chaos have an absolutely game changing psychic power - Warp time - that makes any deepstriking unit a guaranteed melee threat without the need of transports. It's a hollow complaint. Also chaos has units that can literally fly across the table and assault something turn 1. Who else can do this with multiple units reliably?

 

Also, are Chaos rubbish in the shooting phase? Nope. They are on par with Marines.

 

Chaos Marines can:

1: Shoot Well

2: Assault Well

3: Control the board with both elite and cheap, disposable units

 

(This is without an ally)

 

Loyalists can:

1: Shoot Well

 

(Unless the list is a soup)

 

 

So, tell me again how chaos are "limited"?

 

It seems clear to me that you havn't actually picked up CSM and played several games with it. For there is not a single CSM army that fufill all the 3 roles you mention at the highest level, at the same time at 2000 points.

 

What is sure is that Rhino's and Landraiders arn't all you need. This is the prime reason as to why Codex Space Marines doesn't field any of them. What they can field and is absolutely a superior in between is a Razorback. In addition the several customisation options available to Space Marines are why Chaos Space Marines are currently Imperial Armour dependant if they actually want to be amongst the stronger armies. Nore, there is no reason for Space Marines to not look into these also. They have a superior ammount of choices even, yet more SM players seem set on not using them. If you start to make an exception for the Raven, look into the upcomming Codex Blood Angels and Dark Angels aswell. If you want to include all current CSM options, why excluse all the SM options?

 

For your first question who can do this reliable aswell, look into the current Codex Tyranids, Index for Orruks and most certainly do not forget Codex Blood Angels.

 

CSM are most certainly not on par with SM in terms of shooting lists. Also look into Codex Dark Angels soon

 

1. CSM can shoot, they most certainly are not on top of the shooting pile, they arn't AM and they arn't SM.

2. CSM assaults well, with the upcomming Codex SM can do this too (e.g. Alpha Legion/Raven Guard or World Eaters/Blood Angels etc.)

3. CSM do not have both units that are elite and cheap disposable units, they arn't AM.

 

What I find very interesting on your perspective is that Codex Space Marines has double the unit choices, soon to be tripple or even quadripple yet you feel limited. Expect 2018 to be a jovial year if you feel you need even more options because the options are around the corner.

Understand that what you view as "ally options" is what your regular CSM player views as Chaos soup and Imperial soup is as powerful if not more if you look into it.

 

Cheers,

 

I couldn't be any more familiar with Chaos Marines.

I also know the grass might seem greener on the other side, and that's perhaps why you're underestimating the strength of the Codex.

 

You talk about a great variety of units available to loyalist Marines, most of them are dead weight and not worth consideration, even in friendly games.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Ishagu

[Panzer]

 

 

OK, does anyone think Chaos is in any way under-powered or limited in the current game?

Is their a hole in their capabilities?

Limited, absolutely, there are little to no relevant Transport options in Codex Chaos while they do need it as melee is their virtue or otherwise be very up and close. There are ways to circumvent this with Alpha Legion Stratagem for example but not with Codex unit choices. Imperial Armour offers solutions, some player groups detest Forgeworld because of that reason. It fills gaps that are otherwise present.

Chaos in my opinion doesn't have a hole in their capabilities but does have a glaring need to be in combat in order to show their superiority. Chaos cannot outshoot SM or AM even with a Slaanesh Stratagem. The choices in Codex Chaos are most certainly limited by comparison. Much more so as say with other factions. A lot has changed since the 2000's if anything Chaos out of the regular GW stores suffers from up to date kits or quantity of plastic kits at all.

Does this mean Chaos is weak? No not at all but it does mean that if you prefer to play with narrative driven armies Chaos doesn't offer the same tactical variance as is found in SM or AM. Chaos soup is most certainly strong but comes with restrictions in creating good Detachments.

As before, Grey Knights also most certainly have their limitations. Again though I ask if this isn't the logical outcome of a narrative driven design point. As before they are equiped to curb-stomp Chaos Daemons and the only reason why they havn't come out of can like that is because currently there are very few reasons to play Chaos Daemons at all. There is a good reason to run a Primarch and that's about all the Chaos Daemons you see now in Chaos Space Marines.

 

But I ask the same question again, if you do deem Chaos Space Marines as the strongest army, why do you see it like this?

Surely Rhinos and Landraiders as well as the various FW units is all you need? It's not like the loyalists have better options with the exception of the Raven.

Chaos have an absolutely game changing psychic power - Warp time - that makes any deepstriking unit a guaranteed melee threat without the need of transports. It's a hollow complaint. Also chaos has units that can literally fly across the table and assault something turn 1. Who else can do this with multiple units reliably?

 

Also, are Chaos rubbish in the shooting phase? Nope. They are on par with Marines.

 

Ravens and Razorbacks. Which are coincidentally the two transports you see all the time in vanilla Marine lists. :P

 

Also who else can fly over the whole table and charge turn 1? T'au! Coldstar ftw! :D (just joking of course, Coldstars are fast but not that strong).

 

 

But yeah I generally agree with you. The CSM Codex is an incredibly strong one. However it suffers from being a Marine Codex in a shooty horde meta. Weren't horde so good currently then CSM had good chances to be the top army imo but right now I'd say AM are stronger and it sounds like the Craftworld Codex turned out to be pretty strong allover again as well (haven't played against them yet). I haven't heard much competetive wise about the Tyra Codex yet but it does seem very strong in every phase as well.

[Commissar K.]

 

I couldn't be any more familiar with Chaos Marines.

I also know the grass might seem greener on the other side, and that's perhaps why you're underestimating the strength of the Codex.

 

You talk about a great variety of units available to loyalist Marines, most of them are dead weight and not worth consideration, even in friendly games.

 

Good to read, if that was the case I think you can easily retract the aspect on our units being cheap and elite and expandable all at the same time. What I can say is that the moment you see your variaty of units as dead weight you end up with an extremely limit perspective of the army.

 

If your regular CSM tournament player would view all non-narrative combinations as dead weight no worthy result would be worth mentioning.

 

What I can tell you here is based on the info I have of the upcomming SM Codex there is soon nothing SM can't do what CSM can do. The prime difference is that with the choices your average CSM player has come to terms that going mono Legion is not the most competitive route where SM players seem genuinely suprised by this and somehow refuse to go for the same strong mixes CSM go for.

 

Having said this all, I think the fact that most CSM choices are dropping in cost left and right speaks of them not preforming yet as several designers intended. Likewise costs increases are applied to units who preform well above designed expectations.

 

Cheers,

[Ishagu]

Did I say the same unit is cheap, elite and expendable at the same time?

 

Chaos have Cultists - cheap and numerous.

 

Chaos have Oblits - terrific ranged unit with the right stratagem that does not require any support or transport.

 

Same codex, different roles.

 

 

Also Primaris marines got a discount. Regular Marines had their most popular choices hiked in price.

 

I can arguably make a better single codex CSM army than any single SM force, unless we're talking about Guilliman gunlines on tables with no terrain.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Ishagu

[Panzer]

Wait is there really an argument whether C:SM or CSM have the stronger Codex overall? Because in the current meta that's clearly CSM.

Cultists play a big part in that and some extremely powerful stratagems and shooty units you can bring to the enemy without a transport supported by two very good stratagems and psychic powers another big part.

Those are two very strong things C:SM is lacking.

 

I dare say that a Word Bearers army who have arguably some of the weakest legion specific stuff can easily win against salamanders or raven guard who arguably have some of the strongest chapter specific stuff. It's just Guilliman that gives C:SM a chance in competetive matches, really.

[Stross]

it should be "may advance and fire assault weapons without the usual -1 to hit penalty.  may advance and fire non-assault weapons with a -1 to hit penalty".  Also, that should be the renegade bonus, while black legion should be getting the advance & charge, which fits more with the legion's general preference for melee and works better with more of their preferred units.  but whatever.  Black Legion's far from the best, but with abaddon and their usable if uninspiring relic & stratagem they're far from the worst.

 

 

Totally agreed. 

 

About the discussion. 

I can tell the problems of CSM Dex, which is not making them weak, but make us to pray, that dice is going to be rolled well, the opponent do what was planned before and other things. Sure, this is what Warhammer about, but we are really depend on luck, more than other factions for opinion. 

 

I explain why. I have two characterists of unit:

1. The unit on its on, what he can do for his points, is he worth it or not. 

2. Synergy with your army. 

 

And we can problem with both of them. 

Another problem, that aside from Forge World we are almost out of durable units with toughness 8. But the main problem, that our units are not hordes (except for cultists), but can't hold fire or another turn of melee combat. And some of it the problem of the game, you need to be clever and whatever. But my point is that we can't outshoot opponent neither we can't just stand and fight (aside from Poxwalkers, but I put Death Guard aside for now). 

And we don't have normal flyers, aside from FW again, but most of them are not that good, some are rare and others just too expenside. The only flyer I can see fit - it is Fire Raptor Gunsip, but he cost like Land Raider. 

And the last, but not list. We don't have sniper rifles or anything, that can put down characters. And even Abby is perfect target for scouts or ratling and try to do something with them with good screen. And don't tell me, that Tyranids don't have something. They have Lictor. And most of their character have toughness 5 and more, so snipers are not so good with them, unless you are good with throwing 6. 

 

Now to the units. 

HQ

 

Aside from Abaddon we don't have decent named character options. SM have plenty for different purpose, AM have many of them, I don't see any useless. 

I can say why. 

Lucius - only for narrative play with EC, nothing more. He can't fight anything, that tougher him, can barely kill Sicarius, for example, his Warlord trait is too dangerous for him. Space Wolfe's characters just kill him in one phase. His rules are not that bad, but he is just expensive chaos lord for his army. He should just revive himself if he was killed by a character, so any of them is going to avoid fight with him. Or at least he must have Sypher rule, that he is not going to die if he is a Warlord. But now he is one of our leading character and he can do nothing. Just take Lord instead, with good trait, with some good relic and it will be cheaper. 

Byle (old Bob) - how many of you have his model and how many of you want to buy him? I want, because I see him buffing our possessed. That is all he can do. And it is stupid to make him warlord with his trait for Night Lords and he is going to be far away from melee. Don't have invulnarable, his regeneration is useless, he can only buff certain untis. He could buff Terminators, but he can't be transported even in our chaos Drop Pod. Shame. 

Huron - if you like him, take him, good character, but Abby just a lot better. And his renegade trait is useless for him, can't take relic, just give rerolls of one. Why not take chaos terminator lord? 

Sypher - just pain. Can't do nothing, only die and troll your enemy, if he is a Warlord. Synergy only with Fallen. Far expensive for what he can do. Rerolling 1's only. Not CP for making him Warlord. Pointless both for Chaos or Imperium. And very important character for fluff. Double shame.

Krarn - unless you play World Eaters, he is not for your army. But good on his own and have good synergy with his legion. That is how other guys should be presented for their own legion. 

 

So this is it. And Space Marines can take Kronos and shoot on 2+. For 50 points or so if I presume, while our characters either too situational, too limited, or not playing at all. I agree SM have so dead weight. But you can do something with it.  

We just need to take Abby and lords. Warpsmits, Dark Apostals, Exalted Champions are just good, nothing to say about it. 

And no named sorcerer-characters aside from Thousands Sons? Shame. We are limited with this Legion, why in fluff there was a lot powerful sorcerers. And we can't even take them like Shadow Allies.

And I forgot about Daemon prince. He have a chance to kill 10 tactical marines. But only chance. So he is not that powerful. And can't stand throw shooting or strong melee opponent. So something in the middle. But have 8 wounds, Psyker and rerollos of 1's, 5+ invulnarable. Good character, good synergy. And traits work on him, can take good relics and traits. Can deal with annoying flyers. So he is good. 

 

Now to the troops.

CSM

Not any legion trait can make them competative to SM, aside from Alpha Legion. But SM have Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Salamanders (rerolling dice is good). Only Black Legion stratagems can make them a bit better, but you really want to spend 1 valuable CP for some 5 man squad? This is the unit, that is not trash, he can be used, he can survive long enough. So, not that bad on his own, but cost a lot for what he can do. And bad synergy with the rest of the army. 

Cultists. 

You need CP, you take them, they outshine our CSM guys. Have Tides of traitors, can dangerous by their own in 40'man blob, with some Legion traits and if you spend some CP on them. Can overthrow games. Can be fearless. Good oil for Poxwalkers. Not that great on their own, but cheap and serve their purpose. But amazing synergy. These guys killed Swarmfuhrer in my last guy. This is how it must work. Good price, great synergy. I can't say this about most of other units. 

 

I can't say anything about daemons until Dex will come out. 

 

Elites 

 

Fallen. 

Better, than Chosen with their rules, but no synergy with rest army. Useless even in fun games. Only narrative

 

Chosen 

They should be veterans, but don't have anything, that make them more reliable. Like many units of CSM: can be deadly, but can be killed easily as tactical marine. For 16 pts. And expensive specail. I can see them only as World Eaters. Give them pair of Lightning claws, so it will be 41 attack with reroll of wounds, hitting on 3+ and use veterans of Long War. They will going to wipe out some Genestealers. But... they are more expensive, than 20 genestealers, who is hitting on 2+ with Brood Lord and have invulnarable (but no armor save, but I think invulnatable still a lot better, than 3+ save)

 

Berzerkers

Good even if you are not playing World eaters. Good unit, good synergy. 

 

Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Rubric Marines.

Not that great outside of their Legions, maybe Alpha Noise marines can be really good. Not that good synergy with the rest. And they is going to get their own Codexes, so they will share fate with Plague Marines (don't work that well outside DG, since DG have grenage stratagem and rerolling wounds)

 

Possessed

Not that good on their own. Look expensive. But their syrergy amazing. Just look at it. You make them Khorne and put Bile behind them. So it will be D3+1 attack and plus +1 str or +1 toughness and +1 attack. Veteran of long war, Rerolling 1's and other stuff. And put Herold behind them. For 440 points they can kill and survive long enough with their 2 wounds.  And they can fight twice for 2CP

Or even better, make them Tzeench. Put herold behind them and make Lord of Change or herold to cast buff on them, so it will be like old Bob bonus (but old Bob can with them the same!). Put the Changling behind them, cast 4+ invulnarable save, make them Black legion for rerolling from Abaddon and fearless aura. Or make them Alpha legion for -2 to hit in shooting, but since they are goint to get close, Black Legion will be better. It can potentinaly 5 attack from each, 100 attacks with -2 ap. So we use Vetetans of long war. We hit light infantry on 2+, heavy infantry on 2+ and light and heavy vehicles on 4+. Only for 1CP.  I am going to try it. 

So, great synergy can make them deadly. 

 

Mutilators. 

Can be like possessed, by their 4 inch movement, lack of attacks, not that much survivability... They really want to be Nobz, but Nobz just laugh on on them. Even for 45 price... It is hard to make them competative, but with some luck you can. Synergy make them get out from pit. 

 

Terminators, Oblis. 

Put them both here, because they share same problem, if your enemy have a good screen, they your guys not survive long. They don't have any 36 inch weapon and without Abby Terminators are not that good against even tactical Marines. Can kill them with axes, but then what? 

And then enemy just shoot at you and kill your expensive unit. So you need big fire magnet. And we don't have lauchers or 3+ shields like an option, But can take more Combi-weapon. 

And Oblis can get -2 to hit, but other daemon synergy are not work with them that well. And Termy don't have any. And Termy not benefit anything from traits, aside from World Eaters, but you mostly drop them with Abaddon, so Black legion, guys. 

And Oblys are strong, but their randomness can give them bad damage roll. 

So here is my point about chaos. Unlike other factions, we depend on luck more, than others. There is no tactical thinking or strategy. You either get good table, good rolls and enemy "help" you by his actions, while these units or tactits are more straight forward. 

 

Hellbrute 

Good unit by his own. With lascannon and missle laucher for Alpha legion. Or for 122 with two fists and World Eater legion (6 attacks with 12 str, -3 ap, 3 dmg, can give him diabolick streight for +2 str, +1 attack, so this will be 7 attacks on 3+). Can get 5+ invul from Deredeo. Aside from that no synergy and can be killed rather quickly. I think Carnifexes are better. 

 

Fast attack

 

Now for the main pain, but less, than with Flyers. Our fast attack options really depends on like or not that good on their own. 

 

Raptors. 

 

Can shoot plasma, -1 to leadership, good for Night lords, but not against tyranids. No other synergy. Can do almost nothing in melee. Below average

 

Warp talons. 

 

Have synergy with daemons, but we throw them behind enemy lines. Can kill plenty, but can't take Khorne Icons, so their charge need warptime or big luck. Need to be khorne to for +1 attack on charge, other than that something in the middle. Average

 

Bikers

 

Almost no synergy, aside from Black Legion. For Alpha we want to get close with these guys and shoot rapid fire bolters and meltas. Can do nothing in Melee, can't survive long even with 5 toughness and 2 wounds. Expensive even with 23 points. 

But they don't depend on luck like other units, so with great tactical thinking you can do something with them. But as for filling Fast Attack slot for a Brigade we have another option. 

 

Chaos spawn

 

For 99 points you fill your Fast Attack slot. Don't have that any synergy aside from rerolls, they are not Infantry. With 4 wound and 5 tougness can survive even without invulnarable. Can do some damage indeed, but depends on luck and 4+ WS is not that well. 

Serve one purpose for my opinion.

 

Heavy suppot 

 

Havocs 

 

Just marines with heavy weapon. Need a Bastion for 200 or they are going to die fast. Nothing to say about it, same problems as with normal CSM, but do some damage. Good synergy with Stratagems and rerolls for Abaddon are more useful, that -1 to hit for Alpha

 

Chaos Land Raider

 

We don't have Kronos. Can only carry 10 models. Really expensive. Don't have Invulnarable. No synergy even with stratagems. Have toughness 5, but lascannons don't care. Overcosted, which is sadly. Love their models

 

Defiler. 

 

Now cheap. 168 at minimum. Daemon Engine, but his synergy only good with Tzeench. He don't need +1 str, so he have a chance to get +1 attack from Tzeench buff. Changling provide him with -1 to hit and we can give him 4++ invulnarable. Can get hit and wound rolls. And only with that he looks interesting. 

 

Forge/Maulefiend

 

Worse than Defiler, since first can't shoot well and the second can't fight THAT well. Have same synergy. Average. 

 

Chaos Predator 

 

Lascannon pred deadly. Take 3 of them, put Deredeo and Abaddon with Warpsmith nearby. Bring nurgle sorcerer and give one of them -1 to hit. Even one of them can do damage. 

 

Chaos Vindicator 

 

No synergy, their stratagem is really risky. 3-9 mortal wound are great, but you need to get them closer at 24 range. And it really depends on luck 3+ - 5+ rolls. Deathstrike is cheeper. But as some tanky models they are not that bad, Demolishers cannon on 3+ can do some damage. But still average

 

Rhino 

 

Our only relayable transport aside from FW. 

 

Helldrake

 

Bad synergy with daemons, since you move him far away. His flamer is not that good. He can't do that many things in melee. Have the strategem, but it neither help him in shooting, nor in melee. 

Our only option from Dex. He is not even Stormtalon, I don't even say about Stormraven. And depends on luck with flamer. And even if he is going to charge into someone since its his own purpose with lack of - 1 to hit, enemy unit just fall back. Or just kill him if he good in melee. 

Really sad. 

 

Lord of Skulls. 

 

Good unit, good synergy, but he stricted to Khorne, that is his problem. And he is really expensive. If I would take some super heavy, I would take Kytar Ravager instead or even Baneblade. 

And if you take him, you build your army list around it, but it is with all Super Heavy. 

 

So, this is it. 

Like I said before, there are not that much units we can use even in fun games (only in narrative). And other units are too situational or need more luck rather than tactical thinking. 

And yes we have great magic, great variability, but we can't say, that our Dex don't have issues. If GW want to sell models, than, damn, give our reason to buy it. I would buy Fiend or Helldrake with that. 

So, everyone say about: we can charge in first turn. Great, but not with army, who can turn your units into shreads after their deepstrike. Some units like scions don't cost that much, so they can be sneaky dead guys. If our expensive deepstriking gift dies, it would cost half or quart of our army list. 

We can't out shoot Am or SM, because we are forced mostly into melee from very beginning. Stratagems, units, Death to the Falls Emperor, our legion traits (Night Lords, World Eaters, Renegades, Emperor's children).

And our quite expensive units can die fast, while marines have droppods and 3+ shields. AM can hide their Super Heavy as Tallarn. We have protective magic, but it works only on big sized units and there are not that much of them. 

Yes, we have cheap infantry and can get our CP. But how many of them really would help because of our dependancy on luck? 

 

So, yes, we are strong, but we equally can lose on the first turn or kill everything what we come accross for 5 games with the same army list. 

 

So, here is what need to be fixed for someone, who don't want to read this whole page. 

1. We need more good rules for our units, more interesting named HQ's to choose, more convincing fast attack, Flyers. 

2. We are Chaos, I get that. But our Chaos spiritual leage must work between work normally and work good rather than work and not work at all. This will be more tactical thinking and strategy rather than just hope that I roll good enough damage for Oblys. 

 

Basically it. And it will not make us stronger. Just more competative, we can choose more and know that it will only depends on us how we work with our forces. This is the kind of balance I want to see. 

Why Tyranids are so strong now? Because their units always do what they must do, their Synergy is awesome and there are still a lot of option to experiment with. You know what Genestealers do, while possessed cost much more and need at least 300 another points to buff them properly. 

And they have not that much compleately useless or very situational units. 

So our Dex need to be balanced. I even agree for debuff of some of our strong units, if others became more competative. 

 

Thank you for reading this.

[Commissar K.]

Did I say the same unit is cheap, elite and expendable at the same time?

 

Chaos have Cultists - cheap and numerous.

 

Chaos have Oblits - terrific ranged unit with the right stratagem that does not require any support or transport.

 

Same codex, different roles.

 

 

Also Primaris marines got a discount. Regular Marines had their most popular choices hiked in price.

 

I can arguably make a better single codex CSM army than any single SM force, unless we're talking about Guilliman gunlines on tables with no terrain.

You can see your quote back and read the sentence  

 

We are going from Chaos Space Marines to Chaos now? Yet we can't go from Space Marines to Imperium? Again I see a very big bias in this thought patron and it's up to you or any SM player for that matter to realize what options Chaos have they do too.

 

Both Cultists nor Obliterators are gamebreaking units, SM offers Scouts and a whole slew of options akin to Obliterators, pick and choose really. 

 

Feel free to make that army and present it on a tournament, good luck in advance!

 

It's just Guilliman that gives C:SM a chance in competetive matches, really.

 

Cultists play a big part in that and some extremely powerful stratagems and shooty units you can bring to the enemy without a transport supported by two very good stratagems and psychic powers another big part. Those are two very strong things C:SM is lacking.

The latter of your quote most certainly boils down to the following aswell:

 

It's just Chaos psykers and Cultists that gives C: CSM a change in competetive matches, really. 

 

My point with the often seen flawed perspective here is that:

1. C:SM have many more options and they refuse to thake some yet then complain their army isn't as strong as X or Y.

2. C: CSM armies that have preformed the best are lists that can be called "chaos soup" and mix as much as possible which in turn means you can be as strong as X or Y.

 

As mentioned before, the moment you see additional choice as dead weight is when army lists potential is capped by your own unwillingness to create "soups". Because in reality the reason why armies have preformed so well is because they do not view additional choice as dead weight. To me this is what leads to a "spoiled" SM player. There is so much choice they don't know what what to thake which in turn leads to forgone list potential. 

 

And no, I don't think Word Bearers (with likely Daemons??) beat random Space Marines (with AM??) just by presenting an army list. If this discussion is following but we exclude Guilliman and we include Psykers and Cultists everywhere it's a real moot excersize of again excluding great units to the debate because of personal narrative reasons(?).

 

Like before, the point I will stand behind is:

- Is Codex Space Marines from a narrative standpoint Codex Ultramarines (because of Guilliman), certainly. Has also been this way since years and if you somehow want to excude Codex BA, DA, DW, SW etc. from the discussion its your own choice to limit yourself.

- Is Codex Chaos Space Marines from a narrative standpoint Codex Black Legion (because chaos soup = black legion), certainly. Has also been this way since years and if you want to include all Chaos options available to you your leading to a path full of strong combo's that regular SM most certainly have acces too but somehow refuse to use.

 

There is very little to no dead weight units in this edition, there are many choices, if you limit yourself and do not create a list that competes at the highest levels step 1 is to reconsider your choices and stop limiting yourself.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Panzer]

 

 

It's just Guilliman that gives C:SM a chance in competetive matches, really.

 

Cultists play a big part in that and some extremely powerful stratagems and shooty units you can bring to the enemy without a transport supported by two very good stratagems and psychic powers another big part. Those are two very strong things C:SM is lacking.

The latter of your quote most certainly boils down to the following aswell:

 

It's just Chaos psykers and Cultists that gives C: CSM a change in competetive matches, really. 

 

My point with the often seen flawed perspective here is that:

1. C:SM have many more options and they refuse to thake some yet then complain their army isn't as strong as X or Y.

2. C: CSM armies that have preformed the best are lists that can be called "chaos soup" and mix as much as possible which in turn means you can be as strong as X or Y.

 

As mentioned before, the moment you see additional choice as dead weight is when army lists potential is capped by your own unwillingness to create "soups". Because in reality the reason why armies have preformed so well is because they do not view additional choice as dead weight. To me this is what leads to a "spoiled" SM player. There is so much choice they don't know what what to thake which in turn leads to forgone list potential. 

 

And no, I don't think Word Bearers (with likely Daemons??) beat random Space Marines (with AM??) just by presenting an army list. If this discussion is following but we exclude Guilliman and we include Psykers and Cultists everywhere it's a real moot excersize of again excluding great units to the debate because of personal narrative reasons(?).

 

No not really since I also included Stratagems etc.

I keep saying it's the synergy between all the different elements in the CSM Codex that makes it strong while C:SM have to rely on a single unique model. I didn't change my position since my last post on that matter.

 

Also soups is not an argument at all when we're talking about the strength of a specific Codex. It would be a valid argument in a Imperium vs Chaos discussion but this was about C:SM vs CSM. And there it's clear that C:SM overall is weaker and can only keep up the pace thanks to Guilliman while CSM can rely on a bunch of different things thanks to its synergy.

 

Your last paragraph pretty much shows that you didn't understand my point at all tho so maybe this discussion is moot.

Edited December 14, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Panzer]

edit: double post

Edited December 14, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Commissar K.]

 

No not really since I also included Stratagems etc.

 

I keep saying it's the synergy between all the different elements in the CSM Codex that makes it strong while C:SM have to rely on a single unique model. I didn't change my position since my last post on that matter.

 

Are you seriously discounting Blood Angel and Dark Angel Stratagems? For what reason, if I might ask?

 

I keep saying the same synergy is available to Space Marines but many refuse to include additional Codexes for them whilst Chaos Space Marines don't do that. Presumably because Chaos has fewer Codex? 

 

If we're going to do a comparison but exclude choices from Codex SM and include all options to Codex CSM this discussion leads to nothing.

[Panzer]

 

 

No not really since I also included Stratagems etc.

 

I keep saying it's the synergy between all the different elements in the CSM Codex that makes it strong while C:SM have to rely on a single unique model. I didn't change my position since my last post on that matter.

 

Are you seriously discounting Blood Angel and Dark Angel Stratagems? For what reason, if I might ask?

 

I keep saying the same synergy is available to Space Marines but many refuse to include additional Codexes for them whilst Chaos Space Marines don't do that. Presumably because Chaos has fewer Codex? 

 

If we're going to do a comparison but exclude choices from Codex SM and include all options to Codex CSM this discussion leads to nothing.

 

Are you seriously not getting what C:SM means? Did I say C:BA or C:DA?

No I don't mean to be offensive but we are talking about Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Not Blood Angels, not Dark Angels, not Astra Militarum, not Daemons, not Death Guard. Why do you keep bringing up other Codexes? You are missing the point by a lot.

[Commissar K.]

 

Are you seriously not getting what C:SM means? Did I say C:BA or C:DA?

 

No I don't mean to be offensive but we are talking about Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Not Blood Angels, not Dark Angels, not Astra Militarum, not Daemons, not Death Guard. Why do you keep bringing up other Codexes? You are missing the point by a lot.

 

I keep bringing up different Codexes for a very simple reason. The prime reason as to why CSM is effective is with a mix of Legions. 

 

There is absolutely 0 reason for any related Space Marine army to not go for a mix of chapters to;

A. gain acces to elite melee units.

B. gain acces to stronger Psycic powers.

C. gain acces to stronger Stratagems who boost melee aspects or ranged aspects.

 

Limiting yourself to one Codex while you do not have to is simply put not a smart thing to do. In addition I've seen you add in Imperial Armour Chaos to the discussion which is also another book which is often used by Chaos Space Marine players to have that competitive edge.

 

Exclusively using choices from one codex while you do not have to is limiting your own competitive potential for zero gains.

 

Are we discussing mixed Legion lists and compair them to single Chapter lists? If that's the case, sure mixed wins. But this is compairing a whole salad to a single fruit for flavours. A limitation put on one side of the spectrum for no clear reason. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Panzer]

Okay so you are indeed talking about something entirely else. Good to know. I guess I just move on then lol

[Commissar K.]

Okay so you are indeed talking about something entirely else. Good to know. I guess I just move on then lol

So you want to compair Codex Chaos Space Marines , including Daemons, including Imperial Armour Chaos vs Codex Space Marines without Guilliman?

 

Sure, in that case Codex CSM wins out in tactical depth, certainly. 

 

Let's compair a car with souped up engine to one missing a tire next? No idea who will win that race.

[Panzer]

 

Okay so you are indeed talking about something entirely else. Good to know. I guess I just move on then lol

So you want to compair Codex Chaos Space Marines , including Daemons, including Imperial Armour Chaos vs Codex Space Marines without Guilliman?

 

[Ishagu]

*sigh*

[DuskRaider]

Did you ever think that perhaps the reason Codex: Chaos Space Marines is more powerful than Codex: Space Marines is because overall C:CSM will have less allying options (be it variant Chapters or legitimate allies like Ad Mech, Astra Militarum, Custodes / SoS, Grey Knights, Inquisition, and SoB) thus the basic codex should have a slightly higher power level? And I do say slightly because technically no, Chaos Space Marines have nothing to counter Guilliman in their BRB since Magnus and Mortarion are in their own Legions' respective codices. 

 

Yes, Chaos may be a bit better than Space Marines. Yes, it should be that way.

[Panzer]

Did you ever think that perhaps the reason Codex: Chaos Space Marines is more powerful than Codex: Space Marines is because overall C:CSM will have less allying options (be it variant Chapters or legitimate allies like Ad Mech, Astra Militarum, Custodes / SoS, Grey Knights, Inquisition, and SoB) thus the basic codex should have a slightly higher power level? And I do say slightly because technically no, Chaos Space Marines have nothing to counter Guilliman in their BRB since Magnus and Mortarion are in their own Legions' respective codices. 

 

Yes, Chaos may be a bit better than Space Marines. Yes, it should be that way.

Good point. While I don't like it since I think each Codex should be about equal on its own, I can definitely see the reason behind it if that's actually a thing.

[Ishagu]

Should it?

A codex should be able to stand alone. This is GW's intent, especially with them pushing mono detachment bonuses.

 

I've always thought some of the Chaos forum members can be a bit immature or unreasonable, and it's a shame it appears that was true. I've seen a complete lack of ability to see things from other people's point of view, unreasonable comparisons, and now I'm seeing forum users passing opinions on as facts.

 

Let's be more reasonable when it comes to debating the merits of a codex.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Ishagu

[Commissar K.]

A codex should be able to stand alone. This is GW's intent, especially with them pushing mono detachment bonuses.

 

I've always thought some of the Chaos forum members can be a bit immature or unreasonable, and it's a shame it appears that was true. I've seen a complete lack of ability to see things from other people's point of view, unreasonable comparisons, and now I'm seeing forum users passing opinions on as facts.

 

Let's be more reasonable when it comes to debating the merits of a codex.

I don't think a codex will ever be able to stand alone for a optimized competitive setting. Example being IA choices, which remain essential to several of competitive CSM lists too.

 

What I objectively can say is unreasonable is trying to compair two codex but exclude an essential lynchpin, Guilliman, from that comparison. It leads to an uneven comparison at best and fact remains that what keeps SM competitive too is including Guilliman, as much as what keeps CSM competitive, include Psykers and/or Cultists. Whatever the name of the unit is it shouldn't matter if you want to do a correct comparison. 

 

While I think it's a cool idea to have every codex be able to stand alone, it's incorrect to assume that it's GW's intend. We see this in their narrative covering mixed armies as much as we see them in the game. GW's design never acted as if all Legions and Chapters are all poweful by themselves, not in narrative not in recent editions either. Space Marine chapters arguably work as much together as Chaos Space Marine legions do, but again if you want to solely exclude yourself to one chapter it will also come with the weaknesses by such a chapter.

 

I do not think Death Guard is able to stand alone and expect to be on the top of competitive lists. The moment you mix Codex contens with Codex CSM though we can see it leads to great competitive results. Don't dismiss choices as dead weight ever, it's a large mistake to do so.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Ishagu]

You do realise there is a difference between a strong unit and Strong codex?

 

The worst codex in the world can have a powerful unit that makes certain lists viable.

 

Chaos can build for any meta and mission type. They can play the objective game better than marines, they control the board better, they have a better alpha strike, they have greater varieties of independently effective units etc etc

[Stross]

 thus the basic codex should have a slightly higher power level? And I do say slightly because technically no, Chaos Space Marines have nothing to counter Guilliman in their BRB since Magnus and Mortarion are in their own Legions' respective codices. 

 

Yes, Chaos may be a bit better than Space Marines. Yes, it should be that way.

 

I don't know, I am listing SM Codex now and as for Ultramarines I found a lot competative options, even without Guilliman. But I agree, the price cannot allow to use some combination, I am going to do research about it. 

But what I can say, there are a lot of option SM have for certain tactics. And a lot of characters with full reroll and rerolls of 1's. While even CSM Dark Apostle and Exalted Champions are limited with transportation. 

[Stross]

They can play the objective game better than marines, they control the board better, they have a better alpha strike, they have greater varieties of independently effective units etc etc 

 

I would agree with that, if it is always be like this. Like we have certain units, traits and tactics that can't be countered aside from luck. But it is not. 

Termi+Obly strike? Good screen and more than 500 pts just dead

Strong Psykers? Aside from Throusands Sons our Psykers can be countered, not many have even +1 to Deny. And Psy powers is always gambling, so like I said before, we are depend on luck. 

Alpha legion stratagems really depend on the first turn. 

We can't kill characters inside mob like assassins or scouts and good luck to dig through mobs. 

Most of our sourcers of rerolls don't have option for transportation. 

And chaos space marines don't have any dakka by themselfs. Havocs with Heavy Bolters? 12 shots for 108 points. No, only Leman Russ Punishers from R&H for 40 shots. 

Just tell me what type of units and in what situations you can't counter, in any army can be found anything that can beat them. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Stross

[DuskRaider]

Should it?

A codex should be able to stand alone. This is GW's intent, especially with them pushing mono detachment bonuses.

 

I've always thought some of the Chaos forum members can be a bit immature or unreasonable, and it's a shame it appears that was true. I've seen a complete lack of ability to see things from other people's point of view, unreasonable comparisons, and now I'm seeing forum users passing opinions on as facts.

 

Let's be more reasonable when it comes to debating the merits of a codex.

 

Seriously? Come on, they're a business. Of course they want you to buy more "allied detachments". Why do you think the Keywords work like they do? It's more revenue. 

 

Other people's point of view? Pot, meet kettle. Having played Chaos since 3rd Edition, I've seen them go from being fairly powerful (3.5) to absolute bunk (everything before 7th Ed. Legions & now 8th). Imperial players never complained when there was an obvious power bias in their favor, but now that the scale has tipped SLIGHTLY... and I say slightly because the power difference is minimal and you're clearly overreacting... they're up in arms. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by DuskRaider

[Ishagu]

@Stross

 

You're comparing Chaos to Astra Militrum - a fantastic Codex.

 

I was comparing them to Codex: Space Marines

 

 

 

Should it?

A codex should be able to stand alone. This is GW's intent, especially with them pushing mono detachment bonuses.

 

I've always thought some of the Chaos forum members can be a bit immature or unreasonable, and it's a shame it appears that was true. I've seen a complete lack of ability to see things from other people's point of view, unreasonable comparisons, and now I'm seeing forum users passing opinions on as facts.

 

Let's be more reasonable when it comes to debating the merits of a codex.

Seriously? Come on, they're a business. Of course they want you to buy more "allied detachments". Why do you think the Keywords work like they do? It's more revenue.

 

Other people's point of view? Pot, meet kettle. Having played Chaos since 3rd Edition, I've seen them go from being fairly powerful (3.5) to absolute bunk (everything before 7th Ed. Legions & now 8th). Imperial players never complained when there was an obvious power bias in their favor, but now that the scale has tipped SLIGHTLY... and I say slightly because the power difference is minimal and you're clearly overreacting... they're up in arms.

I don't think GW are selling us anything with rules at the moment, otherwise Primaris Marines would have been much stronger.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Ishagu